First surround sound system - help please :-)

[RockAddict]

I currently have a modest 2-channel hi-fi system which I am broadly happy with. However, I have several discs with 5.1 mixes that I want to hear so am now looking for the right equipment to play the surround sound mixes; possibly replacing the current stereo amp + CD player entirely.

Music is the priority - wayyy ahead of film / home theatre.

I am looking for a disc player that will play SACD + DVD-a + CD. So far, Marantz & Denon are under serious consideration. The AV receiver and disc player will need to be a good match, notwithstanding the possibility that the audio electronics of the disc player *may* be pointless if 2-channel is conveyed by HDMI only.

EITHER the disc player OR the AV receiver must have USB, capable of allowing playback of gapless FLAC / WAV. This is an absolute requirement.

Headphone socket also needed.

I currently have two front speakers that, at this time, I intend to keep - Mordaunt Short MS-25i (Pearl edition). What other speakers will I NEED, and what will be optional? Presumably I will need a front-centre + 2 rears with a sub-woofer being optional.

I understand that if I connect the disc player to the AV receiver via HDMI only, the disc player is effectively reduced to being a transport with all the audio electronics being rendered useless (in the disc player). That *may* affect my thinking insofar as I may just go for the cheapest universal disc player available. On the other hand, some of the advice given so far suggests the 2-channel outs (e.g. RCA or XLR) will provide a better quality output than the 2-channel output via the HDMI connection. I am aware it may be possible to send the 2-channel sound out via my existing stereo integrated amp.

Cables are not at issue. I have long since found that, for the most part, decent OFC is good enough for most speakers and I have a substantial collection of RCA connects with differing characteristics (horses for courses).

Preferred sound characteristics are good soundstage + accurate reproduction of the music source. I definitely want to avoid overly bright / tinny / brash highs and wallowy uncontrolled bottom end.

Main listening is melodic rock music - usual suspects such as Pink Floyd / Genesis / Porcupine Tree / Marillion / Airbag plus some JM Jarre / Enigma and some bits and pieces of "mood music" for relaxation.

Budget: Very limited, but I've decided to stay with "new" (so no Ebay etc). Initially, I had £950 as my limit for disc player + AV receiver + 2 rears + front-centre. Stretching it would be VERY difficult but maybe someone can throw in a suggestion I hadn't considered.

In search of my audio-visual nirvana, I have spoken at some length with 3 of the main "chain" audio-visual retailers but have found the quality of advice to be patchy, contradictory and even quite selective. Further, little notice seems to be taken of budget limitations. For example, mention the Marantz UD5007 and immediately get led to the UD7007; mention Q Acoustics 2020i and immediately get led to the Concept range. Today, I was led to a NAD receiver as being "ideal". It would have meant a budget uplift of £200 extra AND didn't support gapless USB. Otherwise, just perfect . It really has been a pretty fruitless task so far and, with that in mind, some sensible help & advice to bring some clarity to my thoughts really would be very much appreciated.

 

[jonathanRD]

Welcome to the forum RockAddict - your post has lots of considerations so you may not get a quick or full answer.

The thing that crossed my mind is whether you have been able to demo a 5.1 system with one of your 5.1 discs to confirm you like what you hear and that it is worth spending the money?

 

[RockAddict]

Hi Jonathan - thanks for the welcome.

I have some demo time booked in a few days from now and want to have as much info as possible to avoid being railroaded by sales talk. Some suitable discs & USB drives have been put aside to take with me. Enquiries so far have led to the following being shortlisted (with music being the priority):

Universal disc player

Marantz UD5007

Denon DBT-1713UD

Denon DBT-3313UD

Budget probably rules out the UD7007 and, as mentioned in the OP, the disc player may well just function as a transport (depends on advice and info). If transport only, the Pioneer BDP-450 *seems* to support the disc types I'm looking to play but I know the price is lower for a reason...

AV receiver

Marantz SR5008

Denon AVR-X3000

Yamaha RX-V477

Yamaha RX-V577

Speakers

Rears: Q Acoustics 2010i (new/complete CA S20s no longer available - already checked)

Centre: ?? no idea

Subwoofer: REL ?

 

[bigboss]

The price of Pioneer 450 is lower because it's a last year's model, not because it's of an inferior quality.

Personally, I would go for something like Pioneer 450 and go for a better AV receiver, like the Yamaha Aventage series.

 

[Leeps]

As you're interested in multi-channel music (SACD and maybe Bluray Audio), there is a greater need for good synergy between each speaker. It helps if all the drivers across each channel are the same.

I'm not familiar with Mordaunt Short's range, but ideally you'd want MATCHING centre and rears, keeping an eye on driver sizes for example.

In terms of Universal Players, the current Cambridge 752BD is well spoken-of, so there may be some reasonable deals around on its predecessor the 751BD. Worth a look.

Having said that, I concur with BB's comment about spending the lion's share of your budget on the AV receiver. Go for a higher quality last-year's model rather than a lower grade this-year's model. FWIW I know the Onkyo TX-NR818 is well-regarded musically by a number of people on this forum and is currently going for some very competitive prices.

 

[RockAddict]

Thanks for the additional info and suggestions bigboss & Leeps.

The advice about receiver v disc player is helpful. The budget won't stretch to the Aventage range for the AV receiver but the cheap disc player route does bring a couple of other AV receivers within financial range and opens up more speaker options.

On the matter of speakers, the MS 25is are a long since discontinued model - the pair I have is 1998 vintage and they had already been around for a few years before that. At some point, I will be looking at replacing them but it can't be done for a while. I will heed the advice about matching rears and the centre.

A certain hi-fi shop is going to be very stressed at demo time.... :read:

 

[jonathanRD]

Just read your very long first post again

If music is your priority than I suggest at some point during your demo, you demo just the receiver along with the front left and right speaker only - in two channel mode. Look at speakers in the £250-£300 a pair region if pairing with a circa £500 receiver. That way you get to really judge the sound versus what you are used to with your present kit. Then depending on which speakers you like most, demo in full 5.1. Then you have got an upgrade plan, or you know where you are eventually headed. You can then get the surrounds and centre, and at some point in the future remove your MS25i's and replace them with the matching front left/right speakers.

Hopefully this makes sense, I guarantee that you will eventually want a matching set and a sub. With a full 5.1 set up film night becomes so much more enjoyable too.

I think we are all trying to push you over your budget, I think it is worth it in the long run, maybe just try and do it in stages. I did over 18 months.

 

[ClassAct]

Hello ,

Funny you should mention the Marantz UD5007, I'm after a disc transport myself and that's one of my choices. I was wondering what the difference is between that and the Marantz UD7007. I would also take a look at Marantz receivers if your budget can stretch to it, they're known for being musical and having a rich, warm tone to them.

It's a shame you can't budget for the Aventage range from Yamaha. I've just purchased the RX-A1030 and found it equally at home with both music and movies, plus it's packed with plenty of features including the ones you require.

Arcam get a good write up too and I was pleased with an AVR 380 but I'm afraid it will be well out of the budget and they don't have that many features with a focus on just performance.

If you purchase both a Denon receiver and a Denon blu ray transport you will be able to take advantage of Denon Link HD, which syncs the two clock of the units for reduced jitter over audio. However I'm not sure if this only applies to Hdmi carried audio only.

Have you also considered any blu ray players from the Oppo range?

 

[RockAddict]

Update...

I ended up trying out the Denon DBT-1713UD with the Denon AVR-X3000 (+ Q Acoustics speakers / sub). The Marantz SR5008 was discounted because it can't deal with the DSD signal for SACDs.

Unfortunately, just as one or two people had suggested, the audio quality for music was severely compromised at this sort of price range - especially for stereo playback. To say this Denon set up was "bright" would be an understatement - and that was with speakers (Q Acoustic) I know to be pretty well rounded and smooth. Even the surround sound on the SACDs was less than mind blowing. When I asked about alternatives (Marantz SR6008 / SR7008; Denon AVRX-4000 and other equivalents), the bod in the shop seemed pretty sure there wouldn't be any substantial improvement. He further confirmed what others had told me that, to get the quality of even my modest current stereo set up, it would cost a minimum of £1,500 on the AVR alone.

In light of that, my path to surround sound is effectively on hold. Instead, I'm going to refocus on upgrading the stereo set up, with particular regard to a player that can play FLAC & WAV from USB sticks (gapless) and maybe a new set of speakers.

Thanks for all the info and advice - it was actually very useful. Even the references to "out-of-budget" equipment was helpful as it led to further thoughts and considerations.

 

[Son_of_SJ]

Hello RockAddict,

Sorry your demo today was less than fulfilling! I don't know if it has all the USB stuff that you wanted, but I'm surprised that nobody so far has mentioned another disc player, the Oppo 103 / 103D, I think at £500 / £600. If you put "Oppo 103 review" into Google, it will give you lots of very favourable reviews. Note by the way that the What Hi-Fi review comes up first in the list, and it is the only review that is less than very enthusiastic. All the other reviews liked the Oppo much more than What Hi-Fi did.

 

[bigboss]

I thought of the Oppo, but given the OP's budget, I think a combination of a budget player and a superior AV receiver is the best combination.

 

[RockAddict]

Son_of_SJ & bigboss: Yes, the Oppo was on the list until I found out that the audio electronics in a disc player became redundant if the DP was connected to the AVR by way of HDMI. All the relevant audio work is then done by the AVR. I did consider using RCA connections for stereo sound (meaning the disc player would become much more important) but was so unimpressed by the surround sound, I was never going to buy the AVR that was demoed.

With that in mind, I now fully understand why bigboss advises going big on the AVR. Unfortunately, as I discovered, "big" means an amount of money I don't have and won't have for the foreseeable future. So, I may as well utilise some of the budget and get something that I still want - something that will play gapless FLAC & WAV files from a USB flash drive. I've actually found an old thread on this and will shortly be bumping it up for any new info (link below).

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/separate-cd-player-or-dac-for-flac-playback-on-a-usb-flash-drive-0

 

[bigboss]

I would recommend this AV receiver which is well within your budget, and superior to the other Yamahas (it's last year's model):

http://www.richersounds.com/product/av-receivers/yamaha/rxv675/yama-rxv675-blk