Extremely warm and Tubey bookshelf speakers

[Vladimir]

Warm and tubey gets boring fast.

....and right there you have identified the potential problem.

It's all about balance, enjoyment, musical taste and understanding your sound preference....and what you mean by Tubey, as Tubes need not be dull and overly warm - but exciting and natural.

Pair a good valve amp to high efficiency speakers and it wont be either 'warm' or 'tubey'. It will be as fast and viceral in its transients as any solid state. However use not so valve friendly speakers (current hungry, low impedance, low efficiency) and you get the 'warm' and 'tubey' sound, rich with 2nd-order harmonic distortion. Even in solid state territory, use a capacitor coupled output amplifier and sound may be on the soft side.

Usually when people want 'warm' and 'tubey' they want more sub-bass and they may have speakers that enter breakup mode in the midrange, making it sound harsh and fatiguing. Or could be room issues such as bass suckouts and accented midrange from reflections. Or it could be just bass suckout so they tend to listen louder and that exagerates the mids where humans are most sensitive.

Ideally you want neutral speakers that sound 'warm' and 'tubey' with 'warm' and 'tubey' recordings, not with everything.

 

[Native_bon]

Warm and tubey gets boring fast.

Once Listened to a Unison Research Tube HyBrid Intergrated with original Sonus Faber Cremona Floor standing speakers, from memory it sounded fast and delicious. *ok*

 

[Al ears]

Warm and tubey gets boring fast.

....and right there you have identified the potential problem.

It's all about balance, enjoyment, musical taste and understanding your sound preference....and what you mean by Tubey, as Tubes need not be dull and overly warm - but exciting and natural.

Pair a good valve amp to high efficiency speakers and it wont be either 'warm' or 'tubey'. It will be as fast and viceral in its transients as any solid state. However use not so valve friendly speakers (current hungry, low impedance, low efficiency) and you get the 'warm' and 'tubey' sound, rich with 2nd-order harmonic distortion. Even in solid state territory, use a capacitor coupled output amplifier and sound may be on the soft side.

Usually when people want 'warm' and 'tubey' they want more sub-bass and they may have speakers that enter breakup mode in the midrange, making it sound harsh and fatiguing. Or could be room issues such as bass suckouts and accented midrange from reflections. Or it could be just bass suckout so they tend to listen louder and that exagerates the mids where humans are most sensitive.

Ideally you want neutral speakers that sound 'warm' and 'tubey' with 'warm' and 'tubey' recordings, not with everything.

+1

Any speaker described as 'warm' is inherently wrong. Neutral is the way to go I would say.

 

[newlash09]

Easy to find out the Q on your Devialet. Just take a measurement with tone controls off and then with them on. Leave it at 9kHz and cut by a large amount. Send me these and I'll let you know what can be done. As long as Q is large enough 2 EQ points could be enough.

That really sound like a great idea. Will do that and will send the measurements. Thanks a lot again

 

[newlash09]

I’d add Sonus Faber to your listening list. Particularly older examples like Concertos or even better, Cremona monitor M’s. Neither of these speakers are capable of sounding bright. The Monitor M’s, in particular with a Devialet, are a joy. 

But this is an itch you’re going to have to scratch at some point. Try a Valve Amp. 

The thought of adding a tube amp has been cropping up time and again. And I could use the pre-outs of the devialet to biamp the PMC's. Just that the actual heat generated by a tube Poweramp will be too much for my climate

 

[Infiniteloop]

I’d add Sonus Faber to your listening list. Particularly older examples like Concertos or even better, Cremona monitor M’s. Neither of these speakers are capable of sounding bright. The Monitor M’s, in particular with a Devialet, are a joy.

But this is an itch you’re going to have to scratch at some point. Try a Valve Amp.

The thought of adding a tube amp has been cropping up time and again. And I could use the pre-outs of the devialet to biamp the PMC's. Just that the actual heat generated by a tube Poweramp will be too much for my climate

It's been regularly 28C and above for weeks this summer in the UK and I've been using my S8 without any problems. I think the heat 'problem' really is a non-issue.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Warm and tubey gets boring fast.

Once Listened to a Unison Research Tube HyBrid Intergrated with original Sonus Faber Cremona Floor standing speakers, from memory it sounded fast and delicious. *ok*

Thats what I also get from my Unison Research S8 and SF Cremona Auditor M's. Fast and delicious is a great way to describe it.

 

[newlash09]

My PMC twenty 26 with my friends db1i's. And found that the db1i's have a sweetness that the twenty 26 don't have. Infact in comparison I found the twenty 26 to be brighter sounding.

Though the twenty 26 imaged like crazy in my friends huge room, and rolled out oodles of deep bass. I missed that sweetness in the mid range that the db1i's have. Even my friend concurs with my observation.

Iam fondly hoping the driver replacement once done, will add sweetness to the twenty 26, as that may be PMC's original house sound.

Can anyone who has heard both sometime, please advise. Thanks.

 

[CnoEvil]

I have always understood, that the House Sound became leaner, cleaner and a bit more forward/detailed, when they moved away from that older series. The slightly warmer/darker presentation of the old series, would be more to my taste.

 

[insider9]

My PMC twenty 26 with my friends db1i's. And found that the db1i's have a sweetness that the twenty 26 don't have. Infact in comparison I found the twenty 26 to be brighter sounding.

Though the twenty 26 imaged like crazy in my friends huge room, and rolled out oodles of deep bass. I missed that sweetness in the mid range that the db1i's have. Even my friend concurs with my observation.

Iam fondly hoping the driver replacement once done, will add sweetness to the twenty 26, as that may be PMC's original house sound.

Can anyone who has heard both sometime, please advise. Thanks.

I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but comparing measurements you've sent and ones I've seen in a review. It's just how they're voiced. I wouldn't expect them to sound that different after you'll replace the drivers.

 

[newlash09]

I was worried as much that a change in drivers might not get that sweetness back. And as Cnoevil has mentioned, i guess they are deliberately moving away from the sweetness.

Some people have claimed to prefer the twenty series over their fact 8 speakers, becuase the facts were more forward and more unforgiving.

Though i dont know if the new 25 series plonks between the fact and twenty series sound wise.

 

[CnoEvil]

I was worried as much that a change in drivers might not get that sweetness back. And as Cnoevil has mentioned, i guess they are deliberately moving away from the sweetness.

I'm talking about the Series that went DB/GB/FB/PB

 

[insider9]

I wouldn't give up just yet. Try DSP. With DSP you're looking for a speakers that can deliver dynamics and detail while the exact voicing doesn't necessarily have to stay the same. It's definitely not a traditional approach, but your speakers are capable. It's more than doable to change voicing with wide filters and perfectly safe too. Most importantly it will allow you to enjoy your setup, while you decide about your next steps.

I'd try the tone controls on your Devialet once it's back up if not perhaps Dirac trial or Minidsp, or even Roon convolution (trial). Lots of ways to do it. And all because you have a mic, so you're not doing it by ear.

 

[newlash09]

I wouldn't give up just yet. Try DSP. With DSP you're looking for a speakers that can deliver dynamics and detail while the exact voicing doesn't necessarily have to stay the same. It's definitely not a traditional approach, but your speakers are capable. It's more than doable to change voicing with wide filters and perfectly safe too. Most importantly it will allow you to enjoy your setup, while you decide about your next steps. 

I'd try the tone controls on your Devialet once it's back up if not perhaps Dirac trial or Minidsp, or even Roon convolution (trial). Lots of ways to do it. And all because you have a mic, so you're not doing it by ear. 

I had actually tried changing target curves in Dirac live and it did change the voicing noticably. But Dirac was restricting me to a pc which I didn't want. So mini DSP might be an alternative next, and it will also enable multiple inputs once done.

But try to change the voicing was a lot of trail going on...and the devialet failed when I was doing one of my late night experiments

But would it be possible by just tweaking the target curve to get a speaker like PMC to sound like a harbeth. Then I could have different target curves named after different speakers and call it a day with speaker shopping

 

[CnoEvil]

But would it be possible by just tweaking the target curve to get a speaker like PMC to sound like a harbeth.

IMO. No.

 

[iceman16]

I might try Vitus RI-100 or Jadis I50 and sell the AMS

 

[seemorebtts]

Sonus Faber could fit the bill nicely

 

[insider9]

But would it be possible by just tweaking the target curve to get a speaker like PMC to sound like a harbeth. Then I could have different target curves named after different speakers and call it a day with speaker shopping

I'll happily help you copy Harbeths voicing. Still won't sound like it due to different speaker design, but will have some of it's traits. For instance sitting a few rows back. It will never have the same richness but then again it should maintain PMC imaging and dynamics.

I'd do it just so you can train your ears. See what curve sounds best for you and then look for speakers that can deliver this and other traits you want. It's probably the cheapest solution too.

 

[newlash09]

But would it be possible by just tweaking the target curve to get a speaker like PMC to sound like a harbeth. Then I could have different target curves named after different speakers and call it a day with speaker shopping

I'll happily help you copy Harbeths voicing. Still won't sound like it due to different speaker design, but will have some of it's traits. For instance sitting a few rows back. It will never have the same richness but then again it should maintain PMC imaging and dynamics. 

I'd do it just so you can train your ears. See what curve sounds best for you and then look for speakers that can deliver this and other traits you want. It's probably the cheapest solution too.

 

[newlash09]

Sonus Faber could fit the bill nicely

Never heard a SF before. But they have been suggested further up in this thread as well. Will their veneer 2.0 or 1.5 be a good place to start. As these two models seem to be decently priced in the usa. I don't know about their higher priced models though.

 

[Macspur]

Sonus Faber could fit the bill nicely

Never heard a SF before. But they have been suggested further up in this thread as well. Will their veneer 2.0 or 1.5 be a good place to start. As these two models seem to be decently priced in the usa. I don't know about their higher priced models though.

These would do nicely Newlash...

https://hifiwigwam.com/forum/topic/128448-sonus-faber-cremona-auditor-m-speakers-price-reduced/

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[CnoEvil]

Sonus Faber could fit the bill nicely

Never heard a SF before. But they have been suggested further up in this thread as well. Will their veneer 2.0 or 1.5 be a good place to start. As these two models seem to be decently priced in the usa. I don't know about their higher priced models though.

These would do nicely Newlash...

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

Good shout....and would stop a lot of messing about.

 

[nopiano]

Sonus Faber could fit the bill nicely

Never heard a SF before. But they have been suggested further up in this thread as well. Will their veneer 2.0 or 1.5 be a good place to start. As these two models seem to be decently priced in the usa. I don't know about their higher priced models though.

These would do nicely Newlash...

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

Good shout....and would stop a lot of messing about.

+1 for those. I’d say the Venere were significantly warmer than PMC, but not as refined or transparent as the Italian made and classic Sf models. I was a bit disappointed with the 2.5 that I auditioned when ending up with my ATCs. Definitely not a model to by blind, as it were. But I’d have those Cremonas in the blink of an eye if I wanted stand mount speakers.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Sonus Faber could fit the bill nicely

Never heard a SF before. But they have been suggested further up in this thread as well. Will their veneer 2.0 or 1.5 be a good place to start. As these two models seem to be decently priced in the usa. I don't know about their higher priced models though.

These would do nicely Newlash...

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

Good shout....and would stop a lot of messing about.

+1 for those. I’d say the Venere were significantly warmer than PMC, but not as refined or transparent as the Italian made and classic Sf models. I was a bit disappointed with the 2.5 that I auditioned when ending up with my ATCs. Definitely not a model to by blind, as it were. But I’d have those Cremonas in the blink of an eye if I wanted stand mount speakers.

These are very special standmounters. Delicate and detailed with a beautiful midrange and huge scale, especially for their size. The bass has you wondering where the sub is hidden....

 

[seemorebtts]

Sonus Faber could fit the bill nicely

Never heard a SF before. But they have been suggested further up in this thread as well. Will their veneer 2.0 or 1.5 be a good place to start. As these two models seem to be decently priced in the usa. I don't know about their higher priced models though.

yes IV listen to both.the top end is so sweet. Vocals sound magical. But you can get ATCsm11 for the same price which will put them to shame in the detail department. I nearly bought the sonus just because of that tweeter. There's nothing like it on the market