Experience with Yamaha WXC-50 is bizarre!

[robdmarsh]

Here are my impressions with the Yamaha WXC-50 streamer. I have to say first of all that I'm impressed but also a bit, no more than a bit, baffled.

When I bought the streamer I connected it through the optical out to my Marantz m-cr603 (the same way I had done with my ill-fated iEast soundstream). I noticed the sound was immediately richer with more detail in the treble and better bass extension. Ok, I thought, I'm not even using the pre-amp section of this unit and this sounds pretty good. In fact, I thought that I couldn't use the pre-amp function on the Yamaha with my Marantz as there is no way to turn the latter into only a power amp (more on that later). Anyway, my technical knowledge being pretty limited, I then found by reading on the internet that by using the optical out I'm not even using the DAC in the WXC-50 but the same old onboard DAC in the Marantz. So effectively I was using less than half the functionality of my new box of tricks but I was not unhappy with the sound, far from it.

Anyway, reading more it struck me that with a good analog connection things could only further improve so I got a fairly entry level but quality interconnect (Chord c-line) and hooked it up, excited to hear the results. Well, the result was that the sound lost its punch, became more two dimensonal, and sounded much inferior to that with the optical connection to my ears. As an experiment I switched on the pre-amp function on the back and was surprised to find that I could control the volume with the knob on the Yamaha, so the pre-amp must be working. I had expected maybe no sound. What I got was a sound that was different again but still nothing like as pleasing as that with the optical connection. There was less definition, a slightly muddled soundstage and much less presence.

Needless to say the Chord interconnect is going back (a well-known high street retailer is very co-operative in this regard) and I shall be sticking to optical. I was originally going to post this on the "Blue sound node 2 marked down" thread but the site wouldn't let me do that for some reason. I wanted to add to the discussion about streamers and value for money. So basically, I've paid for a piece of equipment which I'm using at less than half of its full potential yet I'm not dissatisfied. In short, am I a mug? Have any of you had a similar experience with a piece of equipment?

 

[insider9]

It probably goes down to a few things. Sounds to me that you didn't do your research which happens. Yamaha is fantastic because of all the functions it offers. If you're not going to use these there may be more suited cheaper alternatives. You paid for so much more than a streamer you'll plug into another dac.

Secondly, it also looks like you prefer the Marantz sound. I don't have any experience with the Marantz you have but know Yamaha well having used it for over a year. Does it have the best DAC on board? No, but it certainly is very decent.

Having compared it against quite a number of DACs I'd say that with that big differences you hear it may just be that the Marantz has a compromised analogue input. As opposed to a magnificent DAC. If it's the latter well done to Marantz. But I can tell you I've A/B Yamaha analogue and digital inputs many times and the differences shouldn't be as big as you describe so something definitely is weird.

As to similar somewhat strange experiences. Yes, I've had some... One recent comes to mind (although didn't buy it) home demoed Hegel H160 integrated amp. It sounded the best as a DAC into another amp. Weird beyond belief but I considered buying an integrated to use it as a DAC into another amp.

 

[davedotco]

I think that perhaps what is happening is that you are discovering that the '603 is a very well balanced and sorted piece of kit, it has a good reputation and this seems to be born out by your experiences.

Budget Marantz product does appear to have a fairly distinctive 'sound' that a lot of people seem to rather like and of course you are probably very adjusted to that sound. If you are interested enough to take the time, do try the options again and take care if you can to match the volume levels for the different setup combinations. it is the best way to understand how hi-fi does and doesn't 'work' for you.

 

[robdmarsh]

Thanks insider9. Yes, it is weird but I'm still happy with the Yamaha. Maybe as you say the analog input on my Marantz is not very good, after all it is an all in one. The sound through optical really does surprise me though. There's a faint digital edge to it but generally it sounds great. I'm really enjoying listening to Qobuz to some of my old favourites and I'm getting very good detail and an enticing sound at pretty low volume levels. *blum3*

 

[robdmarsh]

I think that perhaps what is happening is that you are discovering that the '603 is a very well balanced and sorted piece of kit, it has a good reputation and this seems to be born out by your experiences.

Budget Marantz product does appear to have a fairly distinctive 'sound' that a lot of people seem to rather like and of course you are probably very adjusted to that sound. If you are interested enough to take the time, do try the options again and take care if you can to match the volume levels for the different setup combinations. it is the best way to understand how hi-fi does and doesn't 'work' for you.

Yes, I will give it another go - I want to see if my ears are playing tricks on me. Btw what does a pre-amp do to the signal before it gets to the power amp stage? I presume I'm hearing the pre-amp if I can alter the volume on the WXC-50.

 

[insider9]

I think that's all that matters. You got an upgrade in sound quality. Perhaps in a different way to what you thought you're getting but upgrade nevertheless.

 

[robdmarsh]

Here's to that!

 

[davedotco]

I think that perhaps what is happening is that you are discovering that the '603 is a very well balanced and sorted piece of kit, it has a good reputation and this seems to be born out by your experiences.

Budget Marantz product does appear to have a fairly distinctive 'sound' that a lot of people seem to rather like and of course you are probably very adjusted to that sound. If you are interested enough to take the time, do try the options again and take care if you can to match the volume levels for the different setup combinations. it is the best way to understand how hi-fi does and doesn't 'work' for you.

Yes, I will give it another go - I want to see if my ears are playing tricks on me. Btw what does a pre-amp do to the signal before it gets to the power amp stage? I presume I'm hearing the pre-amp if I can alter the volume on the WXC-50.

I general terms a pre-amp matches the output level of your various sources (even the internal sources onboard the WXC-50) to the input sensitivity of the power amplifier.

In medievel times (pre-cd) sources would provide a signal of only a couple of hundred millvolts which need 'amplifying' to the 1 or 2 volts required by most power amplifiers, hence the name 'preamplifier'.

The preamplifier might be a separate unit or combined with the power amplifier to form an 'integrated' amplifier, in essence it is the part of the amplifier 'chain' that provides the funcionality of input switching, volume control, eq etc and any amplification needed to adequately drive the power amp.

The WXC-50 is a streamer/dac/preamp, a pretty new concept. Things work in order, like this..

The streamer accesses music files from an external source, be that local or via the internet, obviously these files are digital, so the next stage is a digital to analog converter. In the WXC-50 you can use its own inbuilt dac, or if prefered take the digital signal (from the unpacked files) to a dac of your choice, in this case the one in the '603. The digital output is fixed, so none of the pre-amp controls or functions will work on this output.

If you choose to use the dac in the WXC-50 you can take the analog output directly as a fixed level output (streamer mode) and feed to the pre-amp section of your '603 (yes the '603 has a pre-amp) or if you prefer via the volume, eq, and enhancement function to give you a variable output (pre-amp mode).

In the latter example both the volume controls on the WXC-50 and the '603 will work, in which case it is important that these settings are optimised so that each section is doing it's share of the work.

 

[robdmarsh]

Wow, thanks for the long and informative reply to my question. When you say "it is important that the volume settings are optimised" how would I do that and I do I know when they are optimised?

 

[davedotco]

Wow, thanks for the long and informative reply to my question. When you say "it is important that the volume settings are optimised" how would I do that and I do I know when they are optimised?

All amplifier stages have 'gain', which is the difference between the input and ouput voltages. Amplifiers also produce noise and of course amplify noise that is fed to them. If you apply a very low level signal, it has to be amplified a lot to get to the level needed, noise will be amplified a lot too, so this is best avoided. Similarly a very high level signal needs care as it can easily overload the amplification stage, causing didtortion.

Ideally you want each amplification stage to be doing it's share of the amplification and working with signals of a sensible level that are below the possibility of overload and above background noise.

In this case it should be easy enough, set the '603 to your normal listening level on the volume, then raise the volume from zero on the WXC-50 until the volume is about normal, if you keep the control settings to around these levels, you should be fine. You can certainly try adjusting the gain by using higher settings on one unit and lower settings on the other whilst maintaining the same volume, just do not go to extremes.

 

[robdmarsh]

OK, this is an eduction for me, I'll try that. I haven't taken the interconnects back yet!

 

[newlash09]

Does the marantz have line level inputs or pre-amp inputs to directly feed the power amp section. I doubt if it has the latter. Please check.

I suspect that you could be feeding the pre amp output of the wxc-50 into the line level input of the marantz. Thus creating distortion.

 

[robdmarsh]

Er... it has just plain Aux inputs and one optical in. So I think the answer is no to your question. I'm not sure why using the pre-amp section connected to the Aux input would produce distortion. I don't think that's what I'm getting. The Yamaha has Aux out and pre-out, using a switch at the back to turn on the pre-amp function. I've tried both but didn't really like the sound with either as I said.

Perhaps I should explain what my source was before I got the Yamaha. I was using an iPod classic with mostly 320kbps connected via usb for about 80% of my listening and the CD player on the Marantz for the other 20%. The sound was generally good on both but perhaps a bit too smooth. Now with the Yamaha I'm listening to Qobuz at FLAC quality which sounds amazing and beats the sound from CD player. The streamer is also streaming my iTunes library from my PC and this sounds very good (and better than from the iPod) with perhaps a touch too much grain in some higher frequencies. Songs by the amazing Valerie June (who has quite a closely miked high register voice) actually make the tweeters fizz a little. (By the way, for those who don't know her try The Order of Time, she's incredible!) This slight harshness, which is really quite rare, is one thing which led me to investigate the analog option.

 

[davedotco]

Is not an issue if you take reasonable care over levels as I detailed above.

If you really want to get to the bottom of this you really need to sort out a simple and repeatable test procedure.

For example, connect your CD player to the WXC-50 using both the digital and the regular analogue cables. Use the fixed (streamer mode) outputs for this test, you can now play a CD and switch between the two inputs on the WXC-50.

Now, I can tell you right now which will sound best, the loudest! There is no way that both inputs will play at exactly the same level and when differences are relatively small, loudest always sounds better. So do not, however tempting, try to A/B the two inputs by switching between them, you would have to match levels for that to be a valid comparison.

Instead, choose one setup and listen to it for a while, take as long as you can. Then switch over and spend some more time listening to the other combination. If you can switch several times over a few days, see which you prefer then.

On the other hand, get your hands on a digital multi meter and match the levels so you can do instant switching, whatever works best for you.

 

[newlash09]

All clear now. The aux output of both the iPod and the wxc-50 are designed to run headphones. So basically the signal being output by the wxc-50 from this port is coming off its inbuilt headphone amp. Which from your experience is not a great one. Maybe Yamaha didn't have enough resources left in the budget to provide a good headphone amp. The headphone amp inside the iPod must be better designed as it is its primary function to feed headphones.

So I think it is best to use the wxc 50 as digital streamer. Which is also how I use it.

 

[davedotco]

All clear now. The aux output of both the iPod and the wxc-50 are designed to run headphones. So basically the signal being output by the wxc-50 from this port is coming off its inbuilt headphone amp. Which from your experience is not a great one. Maybe Yamaha didn't have enough resources left in the budget to provide a good headphone amp. The headphone amp inside the iPod must be better designed as it is its primary function to feed headphones.

So I think it is best to use the wxc 50 as digital streamer. Which is also how I use it.

It is not a headphone amp, just a regular line output that can be accessed directly at fixed level in streamer mode or fed through the pre-amp section in which case the output is variable with eq and other processing. It is designed to drive a power amp direct, so will drive the aux input of the 603 no problem, just sort out the levels as you have two volume controls in circuit.

On the subject of headphones, the WXC-50 is unusual in that it has the capability of driving Bluetooth headphones, not ultimate quality of course but partnered with something like the AKGY50s, pretty decent.

 

[newlash09]

All clear now. The aux output of both the iPod and the wxc-50 are designed to run headphones. So basically the signal being output by the wxc-50 from this port is coming off its inbuilt headphone amp. Which from your experience is not a great one. Maybe Yamaha didn't have enough resources left in the budget to provide a good headphone amp. The headphone amp inside the iPod must be better designed as it is its primary function to feed headphones.

So I think it is best to use the wxc 50 as digital streamer. Which is also how I use it.

It is not a headphone amp, just a regular line output that can be accessed directly at fixed level in streamer mode or fed through the pre-amp section in which case the output is variable with eq and other processing. It is designed to drive a power amp direct, so will drive the aux input of the 603 no problem, just sort out the levels as you have two volume controls in circuit.

On the subject of headphones, the WXC-50 is unusual in that it has the capability of driving Bluetooth headphones, not ultimate quality of course but partnered with something like the AKGY50s, pretty decent.

So the dac can output at fixed level in streamer mode just like a line level feed . And the same output changes to a pre amp feed in pre amp mode. Very clever Yamaha

I thought it was very wise on the part of parasound to offer line level and pre amp outputs on the halo amp. Didn't know Yamaha did similar too. Thanks

 

[robdmarsh]

All clear now. The aux output of both the iPod and the wxc-50 are designed to run headphones.

I'm not connecting the ipod via its 3.5mil headphone socket but with the docking thingy on the bottom into usb. This is a high quality connection. And I don't know what you mean when you say the wxc-50 is designed to run headphones as it doen't even have a headphone socket.

 

[newlash09]

All clear now. The aux output of both the iPod and the wxc-50 are designed to run headphones. 

I'm not connecting the ipod via its 3.5mil headphone socket but with the docking thingy on the bottom into usb. This is a high quality connection.  And I don't know what you mean when you say the wxc-50 is designed to run headphones as it doen't even have a headphone socket.

Davedotco has pointed that out in a post above. Thanks

 

[robdmarsh]

Hi newlash09. So can I ask how you use the WXC-50? I see you have a Chord 2 qute so presumably you're only using it as a streamer but do you use the pre-amp functions as well? What's your experience of its performance?

 

[robdmarsh]

Well, here's a stupid thing besides this whole question of how to connect this Yamaha streamer, but it's certainly an annoying one. Whenever I turn on the streamer, the amp and fire up the MusicCast app on my phone it starts playing the last thing I was listening to without me doing anything! What the *$**£? I don't know what's happening... but it could be the Marantz. With the ipod connection selected it pretty often just plays Slumdog millionaire soundtrack, totally without rhyme or reason...

Anyway, I'll give this testing malarky with the connections a go. It could be fun...

 

[JamesMellor]

What is the Yamaha or the estream doing that the Marantz 603 can't?

I have a 611 that costs about £300 and that does just about everything but make toast.

Just wondering.

James

 

[robdmarsh]

Well, the answer to that is I don't know. I know that the Marantz 611 is similar to the 603 but a couple of generations newer. Does it have wifi and can it stream internet music services? If it can then it's more advanced. The advantage with something like the Yamaha WXC-50 and other dedicated streamers is that it can stream hi res music files. Also the Yamaha has MusicCast so I can hook up other speakers in other rooms and play the same music or something different all with the convenience of the app on my phone. I also think the sound quality is pretty amazing as I've said in this thread, better than CD on the Marantz, even though there is this unresolved question about what is the best connection.

 

[davedotco]

Well, here's a stupid thing besides this whole question of how to connect this Yamaha streamer, but it's certainly an annoying one. Whenever I turn on the streamer, the amp and fire up the MusicCast app on my phone it starts playing the last thing I was listening to without me doing anything! What the *$**£? I don't know what's happening... but it could be the Marantz. With the ipod connection selected it pretty often just plays Slumdog millionaire soundtrack, totally without rhyme or reason...

Anyway, I'll give this testing malarky with the connections a go. It could be fun...

If I recall correctly Music Cast has an autoplay function that continues playing the last thing you had on.

I do not own a WXC-50 but I would expect to be able to turn this function off, somewhere in settings or preferences perhaps.

 

[robdmarsh]

I

For example, connect your CD player to the WXC-50 using both the digital and the regular analogue cables. Use the fixed (streamer mode) outputs for this test, you can now play a CD and switch between the two inputs on the WXC-50.

I don't think I can do this. First of all, can I even separate the CD signal from the amplifier on an all-in-one like this? Also, although there is aux out on the Marantz, there is definitely no optical out.