Exotic Interconnects

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El Hefe

Well-known member
Jun 21, 2008
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WishTree said:
How come it is ok to change the amplifier to match speakers or vice versa but it is not so ok to change the cables to achieve the desired sound?
You asked the right question....there is no right or wrong on what you want to do to make your your system sounds right to your ears...

And also talking about different league between components...my amp and speakers are are not the same league as the source....but I still found balanced between them...

And for cabling, no one actually adviced me to change from one to the other...but I did my own experiment between brands... and I did found that high price dose not guarantee it matches your system.

You can go for a GBP750 cabling...but you can also go for cheaper or even more expensive ones....Good luck.

[NOTE from MODS - please note House Rule 9 i.e. no images are allowed in signatures][/b]
 

WishTree

Well-known member
May 18, 2010
107
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steve_1979 said:
I've done several ABX tests with analogue cables before now and this is what I've found.

The good ones that don't add any distortion don't make any difference to the sound because they can't make the original signal better than it already is. The bad ones that do add distortion can make it worse though. I suspect this is what often gets mistaken as an 'improvement' with overpriced audiophile cables.
Thanks Steve. I am definetly on the opposite side of the spectrum. I do believe that cables make changes but it is small and they do not change the entire tone of the system. Infact anything that you add, will add distortion. The only point how perceivable is this distortion. As I was saying before, in the entire frequency spectrum, I like the performance upto 5kHz and only the above bothers me minorly then why not have it tuned down by cables? Though it might not be the purist way. But then when the pursit kicks in, then the mods of the OEM equipments come into play as all the prodcuts can be improved by changing the capacitors or rewiring as the original manufacture might have cut corners and the mods try to improvise on that. Yes, ideally a cable should induce no distortion and so a system should faithfully reproduce what is there in the recording - which is not my cup of tea as I need a dash of milk and a bit fo sugar :) Horses for courses!

Though I feel that the tonal characters of overly priced cables can be mimicked by not so expensive variants but needs a bit more of patience and experimenting. My old Belkin cables, I believe are pretty warm from that perspective. I need to make a trip to my cellar below and try them out ;)
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
lindsayt said:
So, let me get this straight: your thinking of connecting your £600 Audiolab DAC to your £3950 Classe amp and your £800 Tannoy speakers with £750 worth of cables?
From a pure price perspective, there is quite an imbalance on your system. The amp is way more expensive and I would guess "better" than the DAC or speakers. I have found that changing the speakers has the biggest impact per pound so before you drop £750 on cables I would see what effect that amount can have on improving your speakers.

FWIW, I have Transparent Ultra XLR interconnects that cost over £2k new, and £800 of speaker cable, this on a system that would cost around £18k new. But my system is well balanced, albeit pricier so better at the source end.

There is no right or wrong, I just question whether £750 is best spent on cables with your setup.
 

Ambrose

New member
Feb 19, 2008
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WishTree said:
shooter69 said:
What have these new cables you have borrowed done for your system? Have they curred the problem you had with the Chords or does it still persist? Maybe the Chords are faulty, it can happen and maybe something cheaper will do the trick.

Even though your amp is in a different league to the rest of your gear, tonal balance is more inportant than a financial one but it will expose a week link if you have one.

Where are you Wishtree, how about a second opinion? I dont mind travelling a bit and i have some cable here which im not using and would be happy to come along with it to try out? If your to far away may be someone else can lend an ear.
The new cables have definetly taken care of the harshness from the system. It is like an improvement from 91% to 92.5%. I feel like I want to agree with the dealer that cable matching is important as well though I think spending so much money just on few lengths of cables is a little too much.

Thank you for the offer and I would be more than happy to invite you! I live in Germany (NRW) and I am not too sure it is still doable or not.
I have trialed a number of RCA interconnects from my existing Chord Crimson, including Cobra, Chameleon, Nordost Red Dawn, Van Den Hul First Ultimate and Mark Grant G1500HD and the MG suited my system best, although the VDH was a better overall cable. The more expensive cables definately opened up a bigger soundstage. I find the MG to be fairly neutral sounding and with good bass. Might be worth a punt as a low cost option with 30 day trial or money back.
I have been able to open up at high volume without fatigue or harshness now which I certainly could not with the Nordost for example.
Comes down to experimentation.

As I mentioned before, I never used to bother with mains block / power cables but have noticed experimenting with PSU for Squeezebox, mains block and psu cable that what was a good system before has really been improved with much more detail appearing now than ever before.
IE lots of incremental upgrades has made a significant overall difference. reduced noise for me perhaps being the biggest difference.
Make up your own mind, but if your dealer will loan some then you might find it is enough to reduce hardness at higher volume.
Else, I guess you need to look elsewhere.
 

CnoEvil

New member
Aug 21, 2009
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WishTree said:
:rofl: I knew it! When you put it that way "have the same qualities you like with the Tannoys, but do it better (ie without the tendency for brightness when pushed)" I am more intrigued !!

Do you think KEF Q series have the same nature? Q700 got a very bad review on WHF but Q900 seems to be quite alright. I generaly prefer the front ports (like Tannoy or Kef Q Series / Reference series as well B&W 803 / 804 series) or sideports of Proac D18/D28.

IMO, rear ports need too much tuning with positioning for which I am too lazy ;)
Good as they are, I would not steer you towards the Q Series....I'm not totally convinced by the ABRs.

The R Series on the other hand struck me as something special and are probably the sweet spot of the range. I don't think they are particularly hard to place, needing only a minimum of 9" behind them.
 

stephennic

New member
Jul 27, 2008
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hi,

I too tried some very expensive interconnects (MIT) off a friend (I use chord chamelon silver plus too). They improved my system a bit (5 - 10%) but they were as expensive as my cd player, for many 100s dollars it wasn't worthwhile. I then tried a cheap powerchord (Supra Lorad 2.5) and they improved my system nearly as much.

Cheers

Seve.
 

WishTree

Well-known member
May 18, 2010
107
1
18,595
stephennic said:
hi,

I too tried some very expensive interconnects (MIT) off a friend (I use chord chamelon silver plus too). They improved my system a bit (5 - 10%) but they were as expensive as my cd player, for many 100s dollars it wasn't worthwhile. I then tried a cheap powerchord (Supra Lorad 2.5) and they improved my system nearly as much.

Cheers

Seve.
Thank You! I have some Power cables changed from the stock ones which costed my around 25 Pounds each. I did not notice any change but I let them be in the system as a sureity!
 

WishTree

Well-known member
May 18, 2010
107
1
18,595
CnoEvil said:
Good as they are, I would not steer you towards the Q Series....I'm not totally convinced by the ABRs.

The R Series on the other hand struck me as something special and are probably the sweet spot of the range. I don't think they are particularly hard to place, needing only a minimum of 9" behind them.
That is a wonderful piece of information. I can spare 9 inches but I am not upto having a 1 meter away from the back walls. Also if the new R series is that better and they look quite stunning in real world, I guess an audition is on the way !
 

WishTree

Well-known member
May 18, 2010
107
1
18,595
Overdose said:
How about investing in an equaliser or some tone controls?

Endless tweaking potential!
I would love to try this route. I was looking at Beyerdynamics EQ but have not heard it by myself. Any suggestions on EQ or Tone Controls?
 

WishTree

Well-known member
May 18, 2010
107
1
18,595
El Hefe said:
WishTree said:
How come it is ok to change the amplifier to match speakers or vice versa but it is not so ok to change the cables to achieve the desired sound?
You asked the right question....there is no right or wrong on what you want to do to make your your system sounds right to your ears...

And also talking about different league between components...my amp and speakers are are not the same league as the source....but I still found balanced between them...

And for cabling, no one actually adviced me to change from one to the other...but I did my own experiment between brands... and I did found that high price dose not guarantee it matches your system.
Thank you. I will check it up with other cables that I have and try to do more experementation in the realistic price range!
 

WishTree

Well-known member
May 18, 2010
107
1
18,595
Dr Lodge said:
I have found that changing the speakers has the biggest impact per pound so before you drop £750 on cables I would see what effect that amount can have on improving your speakers.
It seems to be the experienced people concurrence that my Speakers need a change to get the best from my system. I will explore this route. Thank you!
 

WishTree

Well-known member
May 18, 2010
107
1
18,595
Ambrose said:
I have trialed a number of RCA interconnects from my existing Chord Crimson, including Cobra, Chameleon, Nordost Red Dawn, Van Den Hul First Ultimate and Mark Grant G1500HD and the MG suited my system best, although the VDH was a better overall cable. The more expensive cables definately opened up a bigger soundstage. I find the MG to be fairly neutral sounding and with good bass. Might be worth a punt as a low cost option with 30 day trial or money back. I have been able to open up at high volume without fatigue or harshness now which I certainly could not with the Nordost for example. Comes down to experimentation. As I mentioned before, I never used to bother with mains block / power cables but have noticed experimenting with PSU for Squeezebox, mains block and psu cable that what was a good system before has really been improved with much more detail appearing now than ever before. IE lots of incremental upgrades has made a significant overall difference. reduced noise for me perhaps being the biggest difference. Make up your own mind, but if your dealer will loan some then you might find it is enough to reduce hardness at higher volume. Else, I guess you need to look elsewhere.
That is great! I guess once we get used to our set up then we become sensitive enough to notice the differences that cables as well as Power supply can bring, which I guess is part of the fun of the hobby!

I will look out on experimenting with more cables
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
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Wishtree, do you by any chance have the DC6T's toed in so that the tweeters point straight at your usual listening position? Have you tried adjusting the toe-in to see if that can tame the treble down to a more neutral tonal balance? IE so that you're listening off-axis - which some speakers are designed for.

Also there's a high chance that there will be some cables which are just as good for your system as the £750 ones and which will cost you a total of less than £75. Look for cables that are made from the same metal, eg copper, silver, silver coated copper etc, and have a similar construction - thickness, number of strands, insulating material.

Interesting to read your thoughts on your Tannoys compared to other speakers - some of them more expensive. This is an example of price and performance being largely independent of each other in hi-fi.

Just out of interest, did you buy the Classe amplifier at a large discount off the new retail price?
 

CnoEvil

New member
Aug 21, 2009
556
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WishTree said:
That is a wonderful piece of information. I can spare 9 inches but I am not upto having a 1 meter away from the back walls. Also if the new R series is that better and they look quite stunning in real world, I guess an audition is on the way !
Good! I'll be surprised if these aren't what your searching for....let us know if you give them a go.

Re Your cables - I think any brightness in your current cables is coming from the Chameleon Silver Plus, which is silver coated. I doubt there is anything wrong with the Silver Screen s/c, which are good all copper cables.....can you try your new i/c with your old s/c to see what happens.

The i/c I often recommend as a VFM bet is the Linn Black i/c off ebay, which can usually be got for £20-£24. The Linn Silver (all copper) is also excellent, but is a lot more expensive, and can be got for £120-£150 if vigilant.

There is usually a constant supply of Linn Blacks, as they come with Linn gear and are then traded on....often new or nearly new.
 

steve_1979

Well-known member
Jul 14, 2010
231
8
18,795
WishTree said:
Overdose said:
How about investing in an equaliser or some tone controls?

Endless tweaking potential!
I would love to try this route. I was looking at Beyerdynamics EQ but have not heard it by myself. Any suggestions on EQ or Tone Controls?
I notice that you're using a Mac Mini as a source. iTunes has a built in EQ which would do the job nicely.
 

matthewpiano

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2007
494
330
19,270
£750 on cables seems ridiculous to me, although this is only my opinion of course!

I'm not a cable sceptic. I do believe cables make a difference and I've tried several different options myself in various different set-ups. However, I'm not convinced price has much to do with it and I tend to think it is possible to find something that works in a system for very reasonable money. I still own Chord Rumour 2 speaker cable and Chord Chameleon Plus interconnect but I'm actually using pretty cheap Audioquest cables - G2 at less than £3 per metre, and Evergreen interconnect at £25 for 1 metre. They sound better than anything else in my system despite being substantially cheaper than the Chords or the other Atlas and QED cables I've got.

£750 worth of cables might have a place in a really exotic system but it seems like a lot of money that could be put towards either better speakers or buying some new music.
 

WishTree

Well-known member
May 18, 2010
107
1
18,595
lindsayt said:
Wishtree, do you by any chance have the DC6T's toed in so that the tweeters point straight at your usual listening position? Have you tried adjusting the toe-in to see if that can tame the treble down to a more neutral tonal balance? IE so that you're listening off-axis - which some speakers are designed for.

Also there's a high chance that there will be some cables which are just as good for your system as the £750 ones and which will cost you a total of less than £75. Look for cables that are made from the same metal, eg copper, silver, silver coated copper etc, and have a similar construction - thickness, number of strands, insulating material.
That is a brilliant suggestion. I always toe-in the speakers towards the main listening position. I am going to give a go with toe-out / off-axis to the listening position and check it out. Thank you!

lindsayt said:
Interesting to read your thoughts on your Tannoys compared to other speakers - some of them more expensive. This is an example of price and performance being largely independent of each other in hi-fi.

Just out of interest, did you buy the Classe amplifier at a large discount off the new retail price?
Yeah.. Price and performance in some cases are very detached :( The slight harshness I hear in the DC6T is no way similar to the metal tweeters shrillness. I just purely hate such tweeter harshness especially in the B&W CM7 and CM9 that I owned + lived for more than few years. The Proac tweeters are much softer than the B&W. I did back to back comparision when I had the Response D TWO with DC6T and the the harshness was at par but there is so much gain on the layering and Soundstage. My wife picked up the DC6T with out a hesitation over the Proac D Two.

It is just that, Now I am getting greedy to get even better >)

I think I got a good deal on the CAP-2100. Back then, I was using my HT Set up only with Front L,R and Center (With Classe SSP 300, Arcam P7). It all started because Cno made a suggestion to me about getting a proper stereo which might image well enough not to need a center as well as enjoy music much better. I was having a Marantz Pearl PM amplifier in the storage as a collector's item / investement purposes. I tried it out and the music sounded so brilliant that, I traded my Marantz Pearl PM Amplifier as well as Arcam P7 and some small cash to get the Classe CAP-2100. Not the best of the deals that I made but also not so bad ;)

Sometimes I think I need to give the amp some speakers it deserves but I am not too keen to change the speakers. I am, in a way handicapped, to make a judgement at a store. I need a prolonged (atleast a week) audition at home and stores here (germany) are not so forthcoming to do so. I thoroughly enjoy dealing with UK dealers. Most of them I spoke to are friendly, knowledgable but not pushy.
 

WishTree

Well-known member
May 18, 2010
107
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CnoEvil said:
Re Your cables - I think any brightness in your current cables is coming from the Chameleon Silver Plus, which is silver coated. I doubt there is anything wrong with the Silver Screen s/c, which are good all copper cables.....can you try your new i/c with your old s/c to see what happens.

The i/c I often recommend as a VFM bet is the Linn Black i/c off ebay, which can usually be got for £20-£24. The Linn Silver (all copper) is also excellent, but is a lot more expensive, and can be got for £120-£150 if vigilant.

There is usually a constant supply of Linn Blacks, as they come with Linn gear and are then traded on....often new or nearly new.
I also have the Chord Crimson Plus, if it makes any difference. The largest difference that I have seen in the past is when I changed s/c from Belkin PureAV to Chord Silverscreen.

I will experiment one at a time changes.
 

WishTree

Well-known member
May 18, 2010
107
1
18,595
matthewpiano said:
£750 on cables seems ridiculous to me, although this is only my opinion of course!

I'm not a cable sceptic. I do believe cables make a difference and I've tried several different options myself in various different set-ups. However, I'm not convinced price has much to do with it and I tend to think it is possible to find something that works in a system for very reasonable money. I still own Chord Rumour 2 speaker cable and Chord Chameleon Plus interconnect but I'm actually using pretty cheap Audioquest cables - G2 at less than £3 per metre, and Evergreen interconnect at £25 for 1 metre. They sound better than anything else in my system despite being substantially cheaper than the Chords or the other Atlas and QED cables I've got.

£750 worth of cables might have a place in a really exotic system but it seems like a lot of money that could be put towards either better speakers or buying some new music.
I fully agree with you but there is definetly an improvement in the first switch. So now I need to know which cables are making the most of the improvement.
 

CnoEvil

New member
Aug 21, 2009
556
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steve_1979 said:
WishTree said:
Overdose said:
How about investing in an equaliser or some tone controls?

Endless tweaking potential!
I would love to try this route. I was looking at Beyerdynamics EQ but have not heard it by myself. Any suggestions on EQ or Tone Controls?
I notice that you're using a Mac Mini as a source. iTunes has a built in EQ which would do the job nicely.
FWIW I have always found that Graphic Equalizers degrade the sound, and that toning down the treble somehow didn't quite achieve making a bright recording better..it just took the life out of it, which wasn't an improvement, to be honest.

IMO. If you get the right balance, one isn't needed. As I said previously, the R700 manages to pull off the neat trick of being incredibly detailed and insightful, while still remaining musical. I think having owned the Inpol, you are sensitive to brightness.
 

CnoEvil

New member
Aug 21, 2009
556
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WishTree said:
I also have the Chord Crimson Plus, if it makes any difference. The largest difference that I have seen in the past is when I changed s/c from Belkin PureAV to Chord Silverscreen.

I will experiment one at a time changes.
The Crimson Plus is not silver coated, so I would expect it to be less detailed, but smoother.....well worth a try. You now have a good standard to hold them against, with the "posh" cable.
 

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