Ever heard speakers which sound like live music?

[oldric_naubhoff]

You are either listening to live music in a venue or you are listening to a recording on some sort of sound system. If you truly want to imerse yourself in the music from the latter to make believe that you are in the former, then some amount of use of your imagination or foolery is going to come into play.

You can of course fool yourself into thinking otherwise. 😉

P.S You did very much imply stereo imaging, intentionally or not.

I'll say it once again. the ultimate aim of a sound reproducing system is to mimic sounds born naturally, by natural sources. where no imagination nor self foolery would be necessary. I'm not saying we got there yet. but some speakers are definitely better at this than others.

 

[Overdose]

You are either listening to live music in a venue or you are listening to a recording on some sort of sound system. If you truly want to imerse yourself in the music from the latter to make believe that you are in the former, then some amount of use of your imagination or foolery is going to come into play.

You can of course fool yourself into thinking otherwise. 😉

P.S You did very much imply stereo imaging, intentionally or not.

I'll say it once again. the ultimate aim of a sound reproducing system is to mimic sounds born naturally, by natural sources. where no imagination nor self foolery would be necessary. I'm not saying we got there yet. but some speakers are definitely better at this than others.

I'd say the ultimate aim of a sound reproducing system, is to be as true to the recording as possible, whatever form it may take. It is always worth noting that almost all recordings have had some form of manipulation before coming to press, so the best you can hope for is either as neutral sounding a system as possible, if absolutes are your thing, or something that simply sounds right to you.

Granted, part of all that would be a portray a fair likeness to acoustic instrument sounds. As long as you're happy, that's all that matters.

 

[CnoEvil]

Personally I don't think tonality is that important, you quickly get used to any deviation, unsurprising when room acoustics change the timbre of sounds so much we're able to adapt to it.

I would find the opposite. If tonality isn't what I consider reasonably accurate, I don't get used to it, but dislike it more by the day (even if I've tried to convince myself otherwise).

 

[matthewpiano]

Tonality is crucial to the reproduction of acoustic instruments in my opinion. However, I haven't yet heard any hi-fi which fully re-creates the experience of hearing an acoustic instrument played live. My own instrument, the piano, is very difficult to record and reproduce and although some systems do better than others, I'm not convinced that any hi-fi will ever be able to do a completely convincing job (even if anyone manages to do a completely convincing job of recording a piano in the first place). However, I am especially picky when it comes to the piano as I work with them every day, from small 2nd hand uprights all the way up to 9 foot 3 concert grands, and we are especially focused on the tonal and dynamic capabilities of different instruments. Interestingly, I also get to hear lots of acoustic guitars and find that even really good hi-fi struggles to totally capture the experience of hearing one played live.

 

[Electro]

I am going to try a pair of these at some point in the future they are an infinite baffle type speaker with bass frequency response down to 28hz to and a cabinet made from cast aluminium an tensioned with rods to 2500N .

say what?!

Sorry I don't understand :?

 

[Overdose]

I am going to try a pair of these at some point in the future they are an infinite baffle type speaker with bass frequency response down to 28hz to and a cabinet made from cast aluminium an tensioned with rods to 2500N .

say what?!

Sorry I don't understand :?

You're not the only one.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

I am going to try a pair of these at some point in the future they are an infinite baffle type speaker with bass frequency response down to 28hz to and a cabinet made from cast aluminium an tensioned with rods to 2500N .

say what?!

Sorry I don't understand :?

You're not the only one.

baffle is the face of the speaker, plane at which drivers are mounted. so infinite baffle means you can't really make such an enclosure to meat that requirement, there's no infinity in reality. however, the rules don't have to be so strict to meet the requirement because the longest length of a soundwave is still finite. advantage of infinite baffle speakers is that enclosure dispersion variations are nonexistent. so in order to have IB speaker for down to 20Hz you'd need to have baffle at least 17m. so for instance a speaker mounted flash in wall is essentially an infinite baffle.

sometimes IB term refers to large enclosure speakers but it's not really right. and it's definitely not right to use this term in case of such small speakers as from Electrocompaniet.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

I'll say it once again. the ultimate aim of a sound reproducing system is to mimic sounds born naturally, by natural sources. where no imagination nor self foolery would be necessary. I'm not saying we got there yet. but some speakers are definitely better at this than others.

I'd say the ultimate aim of a sound reproducing system, is to be as true to the recording as possible, whatever form it may take. It is always worth noting that almost all recordings have had some form of manipulation before coming to press, so the best you can hope for is either as neutral sounding a system as possible, if absolutes are your thing, or something that simply sounds right to you.

Granted, part of all that would be a portray a fair likeness to acoustic instrument sounds. As long as you're happy, that's all that matters.

one and the other don't necessarily have to tread separate paths. if you have a good recording where a lot of attention is put into conveying the real sound of the musical event, regardless live or recorded in studio, you'll be able to hear that. likewise a poor or overprocessed recording will show its shortcomings very soon.

my point is that in case of well recorded music, where it's recorded as close to natural sound of the event you should be able to get fooled much easier into believing this is the real thing on a system that is more capable in doing so.

and it's not really about neutral or natural. I'm not banging about frequency responses and harmonic distortion of audio gear. I'm just saying that almost every speaker on this planet don't excite the air as instruments do. that's why music played through those speakers sounds like that, like it's played through a speaker. with only one exception - rock music - where amps and speakers are musical instruments for this kind of music. for every acoustic music dynamic speakers as transducers are simply an abomination.

 

[SteveR750]

Personally I don't think tonality is that important, you quickly get used to any deviation, unsurprising when room acoustics change the timbre of sounds so much we're able to adapt to it.

I would find the opposite. If tonality isn't what I consider reasonably accurate, I don't get used to it, but dislike it more by the day (even if I've tried to convince myself otherwise).

By tonality I mean frequency response - a little bright or a little recessed. Timbre for me is a component of detail and is altogether different.

 

[Anonymous]

I also have no draught beer or good looking women I dont yet know at home so the illusion would never be real. regards

The added bonus is the lack of annoying people talking over the music and just being there because they think they should, spoiling it for other people. Alcohol is cheaper at home too, without the travel costs.....

Why not throw headphones into the debate as some swear by them instead of speakers. Just a thought.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

What nonsense! Infinite baffle is a sealed box enclosure. It is a speaker term and not the literal meaning of an infinitely large baflle. Obviously!

 

[hoopsontoast]

IB is commonly used for sealed box speakers since the 70's but it is the wrong term to use really.

Its more accurate to use it for in wall speakers that have a room behind, like IB subwoofers using attic space for the rear chamber for example.

Taken from wiki (with a pinch of salt)

"A variation on the 'open baffle' approach is to mount the loudspeaker driver in a very large sealed enclosure, providing minimal 'air spring' restoring force to the cone. This minimizes the change in the driver's resonant frequency caused by the enclosure. Some infinite baffle 'enclosures' have used an adjoining room, basement, or a closet or attic. This is often the case with exotic rotary woofer installations as they are intended to go to frequencies lower than 20 Hertz and displace large volumes of air. “Infinite baffle” or simply “IB” is also used as a generic term for sealed enclosures of any size, the name being used because of the ability of a sealed enclosure to prevent any interaction between the forward and rear radiation of a driver at low frequencies."

 

[RobinKidderminster]

From the original OP - No! but to continue the theoretical debate...

Live band - Set up recording mic and play back using the same speakers in the same hall - I guess the result would be pretty realistic.

Orchestra/acoustic instruments - set up mics in the position of your ears. Playback with a good system in same venue. - result should be also good.

Outside these parameters ones brain interprets 'realism' and is therefore totally subjective.

ANY recorded music played in another location can never be 'realistic'.

Thats my views for what they are worth - but this should not detract from OP where it is interesting to find some 'realistic' sounding systems.

Cheers all

 

[Electro]

I am going to try a pair of these at some point in the future they are an infinite baffle type speaker with bass frequency response down to 28hz to and a cabinet made from cast aluminium an tensioned with rods to 2500N .

say what?!

Sorry I don't understand :?

You're not the only one.

baffle is the face of the speaker, plane at which drivers are mounted. so infinite baffle means you can't really make such an enclosure to meat that requirement, there's no infinity in reality. however, the rules don't have to be so strict to meet the requirement because the longest length of a soundwave is still finite. advantage of infinite baffle speakers is that enclosure dispersion variations are nonexistent. so in order to have IB speaker for down to 20Hz you'd need to have baffle at least 17m. so for instance a speaker mounted flash in wall is essentially an infinite baffle.

sometimes IB term refers to large enclosure speakers but it's not really right. and it's definitely not right to use this term in case of such small speakers as from Electrocompaniet.

I was under the impression that "infinite baffle loudspeaker" was a technical term for sealed box loudspeaker 🙂 .

http://www.loudspeakerdesign.co.uk/infinite_baffle.php

I only mentioned the type of construction because most speakers that go down to a solid 28 hz have some type of reflex port or transmission line .

As far as I know this speaker is unique in its method of cabinet construction and design .

http://cybwiz.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/electrocompaniet-nordic-tone-1.html

 

[hoopsontoast]

As far as I can see, its a closed (sealed) box made from aluminium with some fancy stuffing out of airplane fuselage and some tensioning rods.

Nothing new in any of that but might be the only speaker using a combination of the 3 technologies.

I am going to try a pair of these at some point in the future they are an infinite baffle type speaker with bass frequency response down to 28hz to and a cabinet made from cast aluminium an tensioned with rods to 2500N .

say what?!

Sorry I don't understand :?

You're not the only one.

baffle is the face of the speaker, plane at which drivers are mounted. so infinite baffle means you can't really make such an enclosure to meat that requirement, there's no infinity in reality. however, the rules don't have to be so strict to meet the requirement because the longest length of a soundwave is still finite. advantage of infinite baffle speakers is that enclosure dispersion variations are nonexistent. so in order to have IB speaker for down to 20Hz you'd need to have baffle at least 17m. so for instance a speaker mounted flash in wall is essentially an infinite baffle.

sometimes IB term refers to large enclosure speakers but it's not really right. and it's definitely not right to use this term in case of such small speakers as from Electrocompaniet.

I was under the impression that "infinite baffle loudspeaker" was a technical term for sealed box loudspeaker 🙂 .

http://www.loudspeakerdesign.co.uk/infinite_baffle.php

I only mentioned the type of construction because most speakers that go down to a solid 28 hz have some type of reflex port or transmission line .

As far as I know this speaker is unique in its method of cabinet construction and design .

http://cybwiz.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/electrocompaniet-nordic-tone-1.html

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

I was under the impression that "infinite baffle loudspeaker" was a technical term for sealed box loudspeaker 🙂 .

http://www.loudspeakerdesign.co.uk/infinite_baffle.php

I only mentioned the type of construction because most speakers that go down to a solid 28 hz have some type of reflex port or transmission line .

As far as I know this speaker is unique in its method of cabinet construction and design .

http://cybwiz.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/electrocompaniet-nordic-tone-1.html

like I said before; some call sealed boxes infinite baffles, but they are not. you get true infinite baffle enclosure when the speaker don't suffer from baffle step response anomaly. and that happens when sound wave is longer than the baffle size. so you see, you need really big surface to shift this effect very low in sound spectrum. therefore in real life the only true IB speakers would be wall mounted speakers with large cavity behind drivers.

one more thing about sealed boxes. with relation to those speakers open baffle is used with relation to speakers with big enough enclosures so that drivers don't benefit from air spring suspension effect, i.e. they are easy to drive and don't loose efficiency, but drivers may ring more. I don't think those Electrocompaniet fall even in this group. they are rather small speakers with low internal volume.

 

[SteveR750]

http://www.tnt-audio.com/edcorner/prat_e.html

Interesting read, I had always thought of PRAT as something subjective (which is it is of course) but not something you can measure, which you clearly can. I'm of the opinion that the electromechanical transducers are the least sophisticated in terms of accuracy, presenting the biggest challenge, to my ears by far the biggest difference between boxes is a change of speakers. The difference between the Spendor S6e and the D18s is so much more obvious that any DAC, CDP, or even amp change.

One thing I am discovering with this round of home demos is that the source has the least effect on the enjoyment in terms of £ for £ changes. It takes lots of £s to make a significant change with electronics, but nowhere near as much is you change speakers and to a lesser extent the analogue electronics. Maybe jitter has been effectively conquered, and it's time to focus on phase acuracy instead.

 

[CnoEvil]

http://www.tnt-audio.com/edcorner/prat_e.html Interesting read, I had always thought of PRAT as something subjective (which is it is of course) but not something you can measure, which you clearly can. I'm of the opinion that the electromechanical transducers are the least sophisticated in terms of accuracy, presenting the biggest challenge, to my ears by far the biggest difference between boxes is a change of speakers. The difference between the Spendor S6e and the D18s is so much more obvious that any DAC, CDP, or even amp change. One thing I am discovering with this round of home demos is that the source has the least effect on the enjoyment in terms of £ for £ changes. It takes lots of £s to make a significant change with electronics, but nowhere near as much is you change speakers and to a lesser extent the analogue electronics. Maybe jitter has been effectively conquered, and it's time to focus on phase acuracy instead.

Very readable and incisive article....and the best explanation I've seen as to what PRaT actually is.

Many moons ago I studied music and played an instrument, so this particular explanation hit home - so thank you for the link.

With regard to the importance of the source and its relative importance to the rest of the system, I partly agree.

Speakers have the most obvious effect on the sound, but the amp has a huge bearing on whether they will reach anywhere near their potential. Generally speaking, I would rather have cheaper speakers really well driven, than expensive speakers poorly driven.....though I realize that leaves a lot of middle ground.

For me, the source is vital, but only in relation to the quality of the rest of the system (which allow it to shine). In the digital realm, excellent results can be achieved at modest levels of outlay; but as you rightly say, things get very expensive if you want to get big gains.

 

[Deleted member 2457]

Yeah mine. 😛.

 

[shafesk]

Thank you for the great discussion, I've been only reading so far so as not to distract from the original topic. In my opinion, in hifi you can go 3 extreme routes in order to achieve what you think represents live music accurately. 1) A preamp and massive power amp coupled with huge speakers 2) A fleawatt amp anything from 2-20 watts coupled with some highly efficient speakers 3) the active speaker route.

Having recently heard the audiolab 8000 pre/power, BnW 683 and Rega Planet combo which is a good setup by most measures, my opinion is that it does big very well, it throws a big soundstage with big dynamic swings and it has big bass with bags of control. However, I do not think of that to be an accurate representation of a live venue playing jazz, it just doesn't have that subtlety, the soul and the emotion. It does electronic music rather well and is very comfortable with the likes of Massive Attack, Nicolas Jaar etc.

Then come my Cayin amp, custom Avatar speakers and my humble Dac-magic. It has no deep bass what so ever but goes as low as the lowest note on a cello, it is uncomfortable with hugely complicated bassy tracks. However, it has subtlety, sophistication, timbre and conveys the size of musicians in my room accurately (they don't appear to be 10 feet tall). Not to mention the soundstage is even more precise than the previous combo. It works magic with jazz, classical and acoustic but is absolutely sub par with electronic....I cannot play them with electronic at all.

Then is the active route, I think its the best compromise, it has power when needed but subtlety when not. However it doesn't do either as well as combo a or b.