Ever heard speakers which sound like live music?

[Macspur]

To be honest, not sure that I'd want to... yes we're all striving for that bit more realism, but at a concert you don't get that stereo separation and

I've rarely heard the clarity of my set up.

Mac

 

[Electro]

To be honest, not sure that I'd want to... yes we're all striving for that bit more realism, but at a concert you don't get that stereo separation and

I've rarely heard the clarity of my set up.

Mac

I understand what you mean but I suppose it depends on what type of venue and music you are talking about , most of the live performances that I go to are small intimate venues with good acoustics and top class musicians playing and I am often sitting about the same distance from the musicians as I do from my speakers at home and believe me the sound is very very detailed and with my eyes closed it is very easy to place the musicians .

The main difference between live music an a HiFi system IMO is the way you actually feel the music and the vibrations from it .

Most HiFi systems just don't even begin to reproduce this but whether it is just by luck or my good judgement at choosing equipment or maybe PMC the company's vast experience of recording and monitoring live music ( which is more likely ) my system does a very good impression of live music IMO, and living in a detached house helps quite a lot too

 

[kev g]

I have to second the post by SteveR750 - I listed to a friends Linn system with the same Isobarik speakers. He played some female vocals, country music & the sense of depth & atmosphere was very much like listening to it live.

 

[Macspur]

To be honest, not sure that I'd want to... yes we're all striving for that bit more realism, but at a concert you don't get that stereo separation and

I've rarely heard the clarity of my set up.

Mac

I understand what you mean but I suppose it depends on what type of venue and music you are talking about , most of the live performances that I go to are small intimate venues with good acoustics and top class musicians playing and I am often sitting about the same distance from the musicians as I do from my speakers at home and believe me the sound is very very detailed and with my eyes closed it is very easy to place the musicians .

The main difference between live music an a HiFi system IMO is the way you actually feel the music and the vibrations from it .

Most HiFi systems just don't even begin to reproduce this but whether it is just by luck or my good judgement at choosing equipment or maybe PMC the company's vast experience of recording and monitoring live music ( which is more likely ) my system does a very good impression of live music IMO, and living in a detached house helps quite a lot too

I take your point Electro and when I was typing this post I was thinking of a

particular concert I went to a few years ago... Sting at the Albert Hall and I couldn't wait to get out of there... it was terrible.. absolutely nothing like listening to his Cd's on my HiFi.

Then on the other hand, I went to see Kate Walsh in one of the rooms at the Festival Halls last year, a very small intimate venue. Just her with a guitar, piano and a cellist... beautiful though it was, you still didn't get that almost 3D stereo separation effect that I love when listening to my HiFi.

Electro, on another subject; would you say the superb sound of your set up is mainly down to the PMC speakers, or the Electrocompaniet amps?

Cheers

Mac

 

[Captain Duff]

A lot of good points made. My tuppence worth to the original question is no, not personally, but I think it would be possible depending on what kind of live music and what kind of venue it was played in. For many years I was a drummer in various rock bands, played countless gigs and did a reasonable amount of studio time. From having the bass players speaker bins behind or near my kit more times than was wise I have a certain level of hearing loss, particularly at the top end, however I do also have an appreciation of what 'proper' bass sounds (and more properly feels!) like, and no, unless you are using high powered amps and commercial rather than domestic type large speakers I don't believe you can replicate the sound from a loud rock (or whatever style you like - including orchestral) band in your living room (not that the neighbours would thank you if you did).

But can you get a good replication of lower level/smaller venue live sounds, semi-accoustic guitars, pianos and vocals etc? Yes, that should indeed be possible, although the average sized living room most people will be using to play those sounds in will cause its own issues in terms of authenticity...

 

[carter]

Best system I heard was at the old audio t in Epsom, not sure what it was but as soon as I heard the price of the set up was 40,000 plus there didn't seem much point making notes. But it did sound like it was in the room in parts.

shame that shops gone the guy that worked in there had so much time for the customers, he would chat and chat and never made you feel like he was trying to just sell.i nearly always brought something when I poped in even if it was just some speaker wire or a new hdmi.

 

[Electro]

Hi Mac ,

It is very hard to point to one thing and the Electrocompaniet amps are a large part of it but not the only reason.

They have total control of any speaker connected to them and the circuit design is unusual and as far as I know unique to Electrocompaniet and Abrahamsen audio , they pay special attention to eliminating timing induced distortions and preserving transients in the music and are the best amps I have ever heard at reproducing complicated and dynamic music , nothing ever seems to catch them out no matter how dense the music gets .

I have loved PMC speakers from the first moment I heard them they have similar qualities to Electro amplifiers but it is only since I bought my PMC PB1i's that I can say my system can do an impression of live music and I think it is mainly to do with deep bass that they produce , my old OB1's could not do it even though they are very good speakers .

So it is a combination of things , put Electrocompaniet and the larger PMC'S together in a good room with a top class source and good live recording and the magic happens .

With good studio recordings you are right the separation can be better and a image more 3d but the sound has been created by a studio engineer so it is more polished than live music, but I love the rawness and energy of live music .

If I had to pick the thing that is essential for a HiFi system to produce live sounding music it would be very deep, powerful ,

Textured and controlled bass .

 

[CnoEvil]

I have loved PMC speakers from the first moment I heard them they have similar qualities to Electro amplifiers but it is only since I bought my PMC PB1i's that I can say my system can do an impression of live music and I think it is mainly to do with deep bass that they produce , my old OB1's could not do it even though they are very good speakers .

What other speakers did you try, before deciding on PMC?

 

[Macspur]

Hi Mac ,

It is very hard to point to one thing and the Electrocompaniet amps are a large part of it but not the only reason.

They have total control of any speaker connected to them and the circuit design is unusual and as far as I know unique to Electrocompaniet and Abrahamsen audio , they pay special attention to eliminating timing induced distortions and preserving transients in the music and are the best amps I have ever heard at reproducing complicated and dynamic music , nothing ever seems to catch them out no matter how dense the music gets .

I have loved PMC speakers from the first moment I heard them they have similar qualities to Electro amplifiers but it is only since I bought my PMC PB1i's that I can say my system can do an impression of live music and I think it is mainly to do with deep bass that they produce , my old OB1's could not do it even though they are very good speakers .

So it is a combination of things , put Electrocompaniet and the larger PMC'S together in a good room with a top class source and good live recording and the magic happens .

With good studio recordings you are right the separation can be better and a image more 3d but the sound has been created by a studio engineer so it is more polished than live music, but I love the rawness and energy of live music .

If I had to pick the thing that is essential for a HiFi system to produce live sounding music it would be very deep, powerful ,

Textured and controlled bass .

There really is no substitute for a quality live performance and I know what you mean about the base... I went to see Ben Howard last year and the base was thumping in my chest which created that raw emotion you mentioned, that and his fantastic guitar playing.

Personally, I couldn't play my music at those levels to replicate the live effect even if my system was up to it!

I do intend having a home dem of the Electro pre/power some time in the future, as well as a Pathos.

Cheers

Mac

 

[daytona600]

These sound like a concert or band in your living room

http://sanderssoundsystems.com/products/electrostatic-speakers/model-10

 

[Electro]

These sound like a concert or band in your living room

http://sanderssoundsystems.com/products/electrostatic-speakers/model-10

Definitely agree I listened to a pair Innersound Eros speakers quite a few years ago and they were truly stunning , the dynamic power at high listening levels was almost unbelievable with well recorded music especially classical but at normal listening levels and with average recordings they did not work properly at all, but newer models may have improved .

 

[daytona600]

Never heard the old innersound versions , same guy designed these totally new design from sandersoundsystems.

, digital crossover , transmission line bass , driven by his matching pre amp & a pair of his magtech stereo amps

rated @ 900wpc. Full range electrostatics , flat down to 22hertz with 94bD Efficiency.

1.8kilowatts in total per side , superb at low volumes or

Fulll on rock concert volumes , classical concert or dance club.

I love them , last pair of speakers i will ever buy. just plug in a turntable , Cd or server and you are set !

If these are not loud enough he also makes a 2,000wpc monoblocks to drive them

 

[RobinKidderminster]

The Gadget Show set up some modest equipment in a car park. Recording live and playing back they found systems pretty realistic I recall. Not a great objective test and hey, its the GS. But to get any system to sound realistic, I believe, you have to reproduce a similar environment. Also ofcourse, you cant expect most recorded musoc to sound realistic since it ain't. It is heavily processed sound. Maybe those 'realistic' speakers mentioned compensate somewhat for room acoustics? Maybe they were heard in non domestic surroundings? To continue an intriuging thread rather than to disagree with anyones opinions I wonder how these setups recreate realism within a domestic environment.

Cheers. Breakfast becons.

 

[hoopsontoast]

My definition of realism is live un-amplfied music. If you are trying to get a sound like a gig, just get a PA.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Agreed hoops. But what? Acoustic guitar in your lounge? Full orchestra in a concert hall? What source should we use to guage realism? What source of music/recording do we have which is not processed in some way?

 

[Electro]

I have loved PMC speakers from the first moment I heard them they have similar qualities to Electro amplifiers but it is only since I bought my PMC PB1i's that I can say my system can do an impression of live music and I think it is mainly to do with deep bass that they produce , my old OB1's could not do it even though they are very good speakers .

What other speakers did you try, before deciding on PMC?

When I bought my PMC's original OB1's I tried many difference types an makes of speaker but the ones that were direct competitor for me were Totem Forest , Martin Logan clarity , Audio Physic tempo , Audiovector (can't remember the model ) ATC scm 40 , I am sure there were more that I have forgotten , for me the OB1's won easily because they were the best all rounders they reproduced any type of music without favour and best bit was the transmission line bass none of the others came close in this department .

I bought the PB1i's without listening to many others , as soon as I heard them I new they were what I wanted and I have heard nothing that I prefer in that price range since .

Since then I have listen to many different makes and types of speaker and none have persuaded me to stray from PMC

But I have promised myself that I am going to try a pair of these at some point in the future they are an infinite baffle type speaker with bass frequency response down to 28hz to and a cabinet made from cast aluminium an tensioned with rods to 2500N .

http://www.electrocompaniet.no/products/classic/speakers/index.html

I just have to know what they sound like

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

I do also have an appreciation of what 'proper' bass sounds (and more properly feels!) like, and no, unless you are using high powered amps and commercial rather than domestic type large speakers I don't believe you can replicate the sound from a loud rock (or whatever style you like - including orchestral) band in your living room

interesting. been to many live unamplified gigs, large orchestral music included and never felt bass. even majestic organ music does not pump bass like dynamic speakers do. IMO it's simply a special side effect of using dynamic speakers and not a natural feature of any (at least most) natural sound sources.

rock music is of course a completely different matter. rock music can't exist without amps and dynamic speakers. both are inseparable. therefore I can appreciate that in order to be given a full sensation of a rock band performing live you need to feel thumping in your chest.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Full range electrostatics , flat down to 22hertz with 94bD Efficiency.

ESL speakers? yeah, that's defo a move forward. but those particular ESLs are not full range. bass is by dynamic driver cut off @ 200Hz. you'll have problems with beaming too with this design. and I'd like to see that 94dB efficiency from an ESL...

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Agreed hoops. But what? Acoustic guitar in your lounge? Full orchestra in a concert hall? What source should we use to guage realism? What source of music/recording do we have which is not processed in some way?

IMO a good approximation to experiencing a life-like performance in your room from your hi-fi is when you can't hear the music is actually coming from a pair of speakers but is simply born in space in front of you. a feat that only few speakers can do in your listening room. unless your room is an anechoic chamber. so yes, you've got a point mentioning room acoustics (in your previous post)...

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

I am going to try a pair of these at some point in the future they are an infinite baffle type speaker with bass frequency response down to 28hz to and a cabinet made from cast aluminium an tensioned with rods to 2500N .

say what?!

 

[Overdose]

IMO a good approximation to experiencing a life-like performance in your room from your hi-fi is when you can't hear the music is actually coming from a pair of speakers but is simply born in space in front of you. a feat that only few speakers can do in your listening room. unless your room is an anechoic chamber. so yes, you've got a point mentioning room acoustics (in your previous post)...

I'm not sure about that, at least the bit about only a few speakers being capable. All of my hifi systems have managed to provide a perfectly good stereo image, right down to the 10 year old Kenwood midi system in my kitchen. Again though, stereo image is largely down to the mix and how the engineer/producer wanted the final sound to be presented. If you can hear separation between the artists/instruments, that's how the track was mixed. No matter how good the speakers, they will not create something that was not already there.

You can only ever compare a speaker to live, if the speaker is heard in the same environment as the live recording or performance, so any other comparison is rather pointless.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

+1 overdose. My thoughts too.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

IMO a good approximation to experiencing a life-like performance in your room from your hi-fi is when you can't hear the music is actually coming from a pair of speakers but is simply born in space in front of you. a feat that only few speakers can do in your listening room. unless your room is an anechoic chamber. so yes, you've got a point mentioning room acoustics (in your previous post)...

I'm not sure about that, at least the bit about only a few speakers being capable. All of my hifi systems have managed to provide a perfectly good stereo image, right down to the 10 year old Kenwood midi system in my kitchen. Again though, stereo image is largely down to the mix and how the engineer/producer wanted the final sound to be presented. If you can hear separation between the artists/instruments, that's how the track was mixed. No matter how good the speakers, they will not create something that was not already there.

You can only ever compare a speaker to live, if the speaker is heard in the same environment as the live recording or performance, so any other comparison is rather pointless.

the problem is I never mentioned stereo imaging. that was never the point of my post. more, a perfectly imaging speakers may never bring you closer to what I had in mind. don't try to figure what I had in mind and just read my words literally. what I meant is; can you really tell that you're hearing a band playing live to you in your room from your mini monitors or from your Kenwood midi and not a bunch of hobbits floating in the middle of your room playing on kids toy instruments? can you tell that grand piano gives an impression of being grand and not the size of a music box?

the problem with most monitor - like speakers is that (unless they play in an anechoic chamber) they will reveal their true miniature size due to room reflections being correctly deciphered by your brain. moreover, the brain will see them as the source of sound and not the apparent soundsources they create in stereo image. it is then up to your concious self to fool yourself into thinking that a band is playing in front of you. but what I'm after is that you don't have to fool yourself into believing there are no speakers. and this is the ultimate goal of sound reproduction IMO.

 

[Overdose]

IMO a good approximation to experiencing a life-like performance in your room from your hi-fi is when you can't hear the music is actually coming from a pair of speakers but is simply born in space in front of you. a feat that only few speakers can do in your listening room. unless your room is an anechoic chamber. so yes, you've got a point mentioning room acoustics (in your previous post)...

I'm not sure about that, at least the bit about only a few speakers being capable. All of my hifi systems have managed to provide a perfectly good stereo image, right down to the 10 year old Kenwood midi system in my kitchen. Again though, stereo image is largely down to the mix and how the engineer/producer wanted the final sound to be presented. If you can hear separation between the artists/instruments, that's how the track was mixed. No matter how good the speakers, they will not create something that was not already there.

You can only ever compare a speaker to live, if the speaker is heard in the same environment as the live recording or performance, so any other comparison is rather pointless.

the problem is I never mentioned stereo imaging. that was never the point of my post. more, a perfectly imaging speakers may never bring you closer to what I had in mind. don't try to figure what I had in mind and just read my words literally. what I meant is; can you really tell that you're hearing a band playing live to you in your room from your mini monitors or from your Kenwood midi and not a bunch of hobbits floating in the middle of your room playing on kids toy instruments? can you tell that grand piano gives an impression of being grand and not the size of a music box?

the problem with most monitor - like speakers is that (unless they play in an anechoic chamber) they will reveal their true miniature size due to room reflections being correctly deciphered by your brain. moreover, the brain will see them as the source of sound and not the apparent soundsources they create in stereo image. it is then up to your concious self to fool yourself into thinking that a band is playing in front of you. but what I'm after is that you don't have to fool yourself into believing there are no speakers. and this is the ultimate goal of sound reproduction IMO.

You are either listening to live music in a venue or you are listening to a recording on some sort of sound system. If you truly want to imerse yourself in the music from the latter to make believe that you are in the former, then some amount of use of your imagination or foolery is going to come into play.

You can of course fool yourself into thinking otherwise.

P.S You did very much imply stereo imaging, intentionally or not.

 

[SteveR750]

There's a common theme in most opinions here - bass (or lack of it) and sheer volume. Even in a detached house, to get the system to sound as loud as the real thing requires some pretty hefty speakers and something to drive them, in any case most of us would cringe at it anyway.

The second most critical cue I think is spatial positioning - the ear is extremely good at positioning the direction of sounds to create a 3D model. Any system that gets these two things right is on the right path. Personally I don't think tonality is that important, you quickly get used to any deviation, unsurprising when room acoustics change the timbre of sounds so much we're able to adapt to it.