Electric cross over with dsp

[Andrewjvt]

Hi

Can anyone point me in the right direction for an electric crossover with dsp?

3 ways to send signals to tweeter, midrange and bass

Any help appreciated

 

[insider9]

These are many solutions from reasonably cheap to expect ones. How much are you looking to spend?

 

[Andrewjvt]

These are many solutions from reasonably cheap to expect ones. How much are you looking to spend?

You sound like a true salesman only joking
Little as possible but I'll look at everything you can throw at me

Are you still making actives?

 

[insider9]

Yes, still doing it. It think it's the easiest way to multiply the value/sound quality of any speakers. And I mean it here MULTIPLY 🙂 There are many solutions at different price points and with different connectivity. Do let me know what you're looking to achive. The complete signal path and we'll see what suits best.

Here are some of the popular ones in order of personal preference:

1) Linn Exakt - in my opinion best sounding and most unique solution. It will set you back many thousands but do look into to see why this is so good. Few solutions with and without amplification available. It's semi manual to fully manual solution.

2) Minidsp - again many different solutions from fully manual to fully manual integrating Dirac Live. If I'm hones I much prefer the fully manual non Dirac route. Make sure you're looking at products that use FIR

3) Pro audio equipment such as Behringher DCX2496 - cheapest solution but no FIR disqualifies it for me. I see it as a glorified parametric EQ with crossover. Yes very good results can be achieved like that nevertheless but I wouldn't go this route as you're selling yourself short. They will usually be semi manual to maual.

Other solutions:

1) DEQX - not researched this much mainly due to cost. One of our forum members uses it so he may give you an idea.

2) PC based solutions - in ideal world this could be one of the best solutions as in theory you'd not run out of taps. Difficult to achieve and you'll be limited with PC as your only source.

 

[insider9]

Another reason why I'd also suggest going this route due to amplification. Even though you'll need many amps they don't need to be as powerfull. Tweeters for instance don't use much power. Also the tonal qualities of amplification (if that even exists) don't make any difference at all. You will be using DSP after all, so you don't have to care if the amp is neutral, warm or bright.

It's all about it's power amp section and mostly how cleanly it can deliver (distortion figures) and damping. Single driver load are also much easier to predict when it comes to impedance and depending on how to use crossover can be seen almost as constant load.

I've got Behringer A500 on order and will be testing it sometime next week.

Either way it's a lot of fun but be ready to learn a lot! :biggrin:

 

[Andrewjvt]

Wilmslow audiok100s made active.

Need 200w for bass
100w for midrange
50w for tweeter

Thats how the active scm100s are
But only thing that worries me is too much power frying the drivers if done wrong

Nord has assignable poweramps for 2-8 channels so would be perfect

Just need a crossover solution

 

[insider9]

Wilmslow audiok100s made active.

Need 200w for bass 100w for midrange 50w for tweeter

Thats how the active scm100s are But only thing that worries me is too much power frying the drivers if done wrong

Nord has assignable poweramps for 2-8 channels so would be perfect

Just need a crossover solution

Ok how about the signal path. What source?

Look at my comment above relating amplification. You'll be able to achieve very good results with very little spend here.

EDIT

Nord will no doubt be great but costly. If that's what you're consideting look at this. You will need Linn source for it.

 

[Vladimir]

Crown amps with integrated DSP. Get smaller one for tweeter and squaker and the biggest one in the range for woofer duty.

I'd personally get a mean mofo power amp and not bother with active setup.

 

[insider9]

Crown amps with integrated DSP. Get smaller one for tweeter and squaker and the biggest one in the range for woofer duty.

I'd personally get a mean mofo power amp and not bother with active setup.

Vladimir, do Crown DSP incorporate FIR?

 

[Vladimir]

I've got Behringer A500 on order and will be testing it sometime next week.

Ever worked with these pro amps with integrated xovers? https://www.thomann.de/gb/crown_xti_2002.htm They seem very convenient and practical solution.

 

[insider9]

I've got Behringer A500 on order and will be testing it sometime next week.

Ever worked with these pro amps with integrated xovers? https://www.thomann.de/gb/crown_xti_2002.htm They seem very convenient and practical solution.

No, not used them. Not needed this much power since my teenage years when we would do gigs. Back then I was more interested what instruments, mics and effects we'd use. I'd look to create the sound and not try to re-create it.

I'm sure it's convenient but with very restricted DSP and I'm sure distortion levels are far beyond what you'd consider acceptable for home listening. Not so much an issue when with a PA system.

Note, Behringer A500 weights slightly more and delivers only third the power. But I do reserve judgement until I've listened to it and measured it.

 

[Vladimir]

Note, Behringer A500 weights slightly more and delivers only third the power. But I do reserve judgement until I've listened to it and measured it.

This Crown amp is Class D with SMPS PSU and fan assisted cooling. The Behringer is classical class AB with linear PSU and convex cooling. Thus the difference in weight, apples and oranges.

The A500 does 175Wpc in 8ohms. The XTi2002 does 475Wpc in 8ohms, which isn't THAT much power really. Nothing under 600Wpc in 8ohms can be considered an overkill with large powerhungry speakers at high SPLs. If you want unclipped peaks, you need power headroom, simple as that.

As for the integrated crossover I have no clue how usable it is. Might be crude like you say, which is why I asked if this is an option for Andrew at all.

 

[insider9]

Note, Behringer A500 weights slightly more and delivers only third the power. But I do reserve judgement until I've listened to it and measured it.

This Crown amp is Class D with SMPS PSU and fan assisted cooling. The Behringer is classical class AB with linear PSU and convex cooling. Thus the difference in weight, apples and oranges.

The A500 does 175Wpc in 8ohms. The XTi2002 does 475Wpc in 8ohms, which isn't THAT much power really. Nothing under 600Wpc in 8ohms can be considered an overkill with large powerhungry speakers at high SPLs. If you want unclipped peaks, you need power headroom, simple as that.

As for the integrated crossover I have no clue how usable it is. Might be crude like you say, which is why I asked if this is an option for Andrew at all.

Much appreciated, Vladimir.

I've not realised it was class D which makes sense considering wattage and weight.

 

[lindsayt]

Has anyone ever compared Linn Exakt with MiniDSP?

Or is it a case of never the twain shall meet?

What is it that Exakt does that MiniDSP doesn't, if anything?

Or what is it that Linn Exakt does better than MinDSP, if anything?

And does anyone know how many and what type of integrated circuits the signal passes through in Exakt or MiniDSP?

 

[Andrewjvt]

Note, Behringer A500 weights slightly more and delivers only third the power. But I do reserve judgement until I've listened to it and measured it.

This Crown amp is Class D with SMPS PSU and fan assisted cooling. The Behringer is classical class AB with linear PSU and convex cooling. Thus the difference in weight, apples and oranges.

The A500 does 175Wpc in 8ohms. The XTi2002 does 475Wpc in 8ohms, which isn't THAT much power really. Nothing under 600Wpc in 8ohms can be considered an overkill with large powerhungry speakers at high SPLs. If you want unclipped peaks, you need power headroom, simple as that.

As for the integrated crossover I have no clue how usable it is. Might be crude like you say, which is why I asked if this is an option for Andrew at all.

Or just go passive and get 2powerful mono blocks and be satisfied.

If its doable or notnot sure

This is why a demo of the jbl708p is crucial here. Compression driver for hf is very intriguing

500w a side amps and speaker all in at £1700 a side.
What to do

 

[Andrewjvt]

Behringer CX2310 Pro Super-X Crossover

 

[Andrewjvt]

K231 Stereo 3-Way Active Crossover.
By xkitz

 

[insider9]

Has anyone ever compared Linn Exakt with MiniDSP?

Or is it a case of never the twain shall meet?

 

What is it that Exakt does that MiniDSP doesn't, if anything?

Or what is it that Linn Exakt does better than MinDSP, if anything?

 

And does anyone know how many and what type of integrated circuits the signal passes through in Exakt or MiniDSP?

Rather big question and I shall do my best to answer at some point tomorrow.

 

[insider9]

K231 Stereo 3-Way Active Crossover.
By xkitz

Having a very quick look at specs Minidsp would be a more flexible solution. And I'm only comparing xo and not dsp.

 

[insider9]

Behringer CX2310 Pro Super-X Crossover

Again, no I wouldn't.

 

[insider9]

DSP aside what I would expect from my crossover is different crossover filter types Linkwitz-Riley, Butterworth, etc. with selectable roll off characteristics. And very important in my opinion is an adjustable delay at least for outputs so that you can get the phase right.

Neither of the ones you linked met these standards.

If you prefer to stay passive that's fine but do look into a DSP solution. They make a huge difference.

It's all really down to how much time you have and how much you're willing to learn.

 

[Andrewjvt]

K231 Stereo 3-Way Active Crossover.
By xkitz

Having a very quick look at specs Minidsp would be a more flexible solution. And I'm only comparing xo and not dsp.

2 things
The minidsp is built for biamp but not tri amp as I would need 3 way.

2nd was hoping not to make my benchmark dac redundant.

Is there a version without dac or am i wrong thinking i have to use the dac in the minidsp?

Edit: ive answered my own questions from the Minidsp website.
Its great and a good place to learn.

So digital crossovers are the best solution? Still going to have loads of questions as you did months ago no doubt.
By the look this could work on the Wilmslow

 

[lindsayt]

As to whether digital crossovers are the best solution, my instincts are that like so many things in hi-fi it's all a big fat "it depends".

If you have speakers where the drivers are pretty much in phase at the listening position, that are relatively tonally neutral, that don't need electrical damping of the bass drivers due to sufficient cone area / sufficient mechanical damping, use an analogue source and you are a listener that values low level detail and dynamics over tonal neutrality then there's a chance that digital crossovers with DSP would make your system sound worse.

If you're in the opposite scenario to this then they'd be well worth checking out.

For fomestic use 40 watts would be sufficient to get ATC SCM50SL's to 101 dbs @ 1 metre. Loud enough to disturb her next-door.

For 3 way speakers you could get a 4 x 10 MiniDSP.

It would seem to be a bit daft to do the digital analog conversion in the Benchmark and then do ADC -> processing -> DAC in the MiniDSP.

 

[Andrewjvt]

As to whether digital crossovers are the best solution, my instincts are that like so many things in hi-fi it's all a big fat "it depends".

If you have speakers where the drivers are pretty much in phase at the listening position, that are relatively tonally neutral, that don't need electrical damping of the bass drivers due to sufficient cone area / sufficient mechanical damping, use an analogue source and you are a listener that values low level detail and dynamics over tonal neutrality then there's a chance that digital crossovers with DSP would make your system sound worse.

 

If you're in the opposite scenario to this then they'd be well worth checking out.

 

 

For fomestic use 40 watts would be sufficient to get ATC SCM50SL's to 101 dbs @ 1 metre. Loud enough to disturb her next-door.

For 3 way speakers you could get a 4 x 10 MiniDSP.

 

It would seem to be a bit daft to do the digital analog conversion in the Benchmark and then do ADC -> processing -> DAC in the MiniDSP.

I think you can bypass the dac in the mini dsp and connect analog the benchmark or am i missing something?

 

[insider9]

As to whether digital crossovers are the best solution, my instincts are that like so many things in hi-fi it's all a big fat "it depends".

If you have speakers where the drivers are pretty much in phase at the listening position, that are relatively tonally neutral, that don't need electrical damping of the bass drivers due to sufficient cone area / sufficient mechanical damping, use an analogue source and you are a listener that values low level detail and dynamics over tonal neutrality then there's a chance that digital crossovers with DSP would make your system sound worse.

 

If you're in the opposite scenario to this then they'd be well worth checking out.

 

 

For fomestic use 40 watts would be sufficient to get ATC SCM50SL's to 101 dbs @ 1 metre. Loud enough to disturb her next-door.

For 3 way speakers you could get a 4 x 10 MiniDSP.

 

It would seem to be a bit daft to do the digital analog conversion in the Benchmark and then do ADC -> processing -> DAC in the MiniDSP.

I think you can bypass the dac in the mini dsp and connect analog the benchmark or am i missing something?

There are two ways to do it.

1) Use your DAC and then put crossover with DSP at the end. Problem with that is that additional ADC conversion where there might be loss in quality.

2) Go all the way digital to DSP/crossover and then do DAC. This is a very much preferred way as there aren't unnecessary ADC and if all is kept digital no loss of quality. Here's a caveat, if you want a crossover at that point and use an external DAC you'll need 3 of them not 1 for a three-way. Would you buy 2 more benchmarks or rather use Minidsp's built in DAC?

Overall, I quite agree with Lindsayt statement. Although that would mostly happens if you want to achieve too much or don't know what you're doing. In a worst case scenario the system can sound compressed which is particularly heard in midrange. Should that be the case a careful DSP solution for just bass (room interaction) might be all that's needed.

I'm a big fan of DSP and actives but it's important to understand where the gains lie and what can't be achieved using DSP. There is no disadvantage of going active with a digital crossover.

Best start would be to get a measurement mic like a Umik-1 and see what you're dealing with room wise. It may be that DSP won't do much and you'll need physical room treatment. You can also try Dirac (free trial) to see if you like it.