Electric cross over with dsp

[Vladimir]

Note, Behringer A500 weights slightly more and delivers only third the power. But I do reserve judgement until I've listened to it and measured it.

This Crown amp is Class D with SMPS PSU and fan assisted cooling. The Behringer is classical class AB with linear PSU and convex cooling. Thus the difference in weight, apples and oranges.

The A500 does 175Wpc in 8ohms. The XTi2002 does 475Wpc in 8ohms, which isn't THAT much power really. Nothing under 600Wpc in 8ohms can be considered an overkill with large powerhungry speakers at high SPLs. If you want unclipped peaks, you need power headroom, simple as that.

As for the integrated crossover I have no clue how usable it is. Might be crude like you say, which is why I asked if this is an option for Andrew at all.

Or just go passive and get 2powerful mono blocks and be satisfied.

If its doable or notnot sure

This is why a demo of the jbl708p is crucial here. Compression driver for hf is very intriguing

500w a side amps and speaker all in at £1700 a side. What to do

Or big efficient vintage revival Klipsch/JBLs and a tube amp growling with sexy harmonics. No small active speaker can touch them on dynamics. Intimidating sound.

To me the active route is third on the list.

 

[Vladimir]

If you prefer to stay passive that's fine but do look into a DSP solution. They make a huge difference.

That's relative. To some people cables make a huge difference. Objectively almost nothing in this hobby is nigh and day, not even speakers. When you obsess over something it is more likely you appreciate the minute to a larger scale than those who don't obsess.

What I would think at this point is what the final product would look like. Do I want speaker and crossover guts all over my room? Do I want stacks of ugly pro amps? Passive or fan cooled? Will I get pissed off while looking for quieter fans to install? How much will the total cost be? What else can I get for the same money? Am I in this for the journey or the final destination? Will Vlad stop screwing up this thread?

I might. Eventually. *biggrin*

I've seen room both online and in real life of people who DIY their systems. It's a mess. An ongoing project with always something to do. I like fiddling with gear but my red line draws at fugly Behringer external crossovers spewing cables everywhere. Nope.

 

[insider9]

If you prefer to stay passive that's fine but do look into a DSP solution. They make a huge difference.

That's relative. To some people cables make a huge difference. Objectively almost nothing in this hobby is nigh and day, not even speakers. When you obsess over something it is more likely you appreciate the minute to a larger scale than those who don't obsess. 

What I would think at this point is what the final product would look like. Do I want speaker and crossover guts all over my room? Do I want stacks of ugly pro amps? Passive or fan cooled? Will I get pissed off while looking for quieter fans to install? How much will the total cost be? What else can I get for the same money? Am I in this for the journey or the final destination? Will Vlad stop screwing up this thread? 

I might. Eventually. *biggrin*

I've seen room both online and in real life of people who DIY their systems. It's a mess. An ongoing project with always something to do. I like fiddling with gear but my red line draws at fugly Behringer external crossovers spewing cables everywhere. Nope.

Agreed, it's not for everyone. I fiddle with things all the time but can't stand the mess. So I keep it tidy.

I think we can all agree that once you know the pros and cons of every solution it makes it easier to decide.

DIY route is definitely more difficult and time consuming. It depends on whether you enjoy the journey or not. DSP is a tool that if implemented right makes a big difference. The accent on implementation here as it can make things worse. No right or wrong, just different.

 

[Vladimir]

I'd need a special audio room for DIY (I'm messy). Turning the livingroom into hi-fi playground is a bit much. Although I do appreciate how rewarding DIY can be. Feels awesome to build things.

 

[DocG]

Hi guys,

This in an interesting thread! And a lot of very apt comments have been made. Very true in my opinion:

1/ With DIY you know where you start, but not where it will end. I had a very clear plan when I started, but along the road, new issues arose (and keep arising) and need solutions. So it can get rather complicated over time.

2/ About the mess: I have my DIY system in our living room, and my wife has a clear preference for clean and tidy. I can put all the electronics in a (ventilated) cabinet, but the cabinet gets very tight very quickly! So I ditched the idea of adding a FM-tuner, as the space is too precious. Though I made all cables (IC, mains, SC) to measure, it's still a veritable cable spaghetti; I can cram it all in the cabinet. Just.

3/ As for the topology: like Insider9, I much prefer the XO in the DSP, upfront. Which indeed urges you to get multiple DACs. I got a DEQX HDP-3, which is the older version, with lower quality ADC and DAC, but the same DSP-chip as the latest processors. At the moment, I use the DEQX DAC for the subwoofer, a Mytek 192 for the mids, and my old DacMagic for the treble. Seems to work fine (though I might tinker with that later on).

4/ My biggest issue is simplicity. The system is in the living room, and also serves for the TV-audio. So my 8yo daughter must be able to switch everything on and off. Complicated as the system is, it must be very easy to use. Which makes it even more complicated. I added a Harmony Universal Remote, and 2 IR-to-relais switches for the mains so I can switch the gear on and off with the Harmony. Lots of extra tinkering, believe me!

Having said all that, I would urge you to have a closer look at the Mini-DSP catalogue, Andrew. I think something like the nanoDIGI 2 x 8 could be just what you need. If indeed you are willing to dive into it... Have fun!

 

[Vladimir]

Andrew's biggest issue going active (if I understand correctly) is having his Benchmark DAC redundant since DSP/crossover duties will be dealt with elswhere in integrated solution. Pointless to use analogue inputs on the miniDSP and go through additional AD/DA conversion. Might as well go straight digital source -> miniDSP via USB.

Also, what are the odds amateurs 100% ignorant on how to design a passive crossover ending up doing better speaker design with an active crossover? Chances are the passive crossovers in the K100s are better, regardless what you think you hear while fiddling with miniDSP. You are DIYing, not designing anything. Like changing mufflers and air filters on cars isn't engineering cars. My highest regard for people like Troels Gravesen, but I'm not him. I can cut wood, glue it together, install drivers and solder few components as a crossover from a DIY laundry list, but I have no clue how to design the speaker system or replace a passive with active crossover. Open any book or blog on crossover design and you'll see what I mean. It's a very steep learning curve.

 

[insider9]

Has anyone ever compared Linn Exakt with MiniDSP?

Or is it a case of never the twain shall meet?

What is it that Exakt does that MiniDSP doesn't, if anything?

Or what is it that Linn Exakt does better than MinDSP, if anything?

And does anyone know how many and what type of integrated circuits the signal passes through in Exakt or MiniDSP?

What Exakt does that Minidsp doesn't Exakt considers physical, electrical and spacial parameters of drive units. On that basis it's able to come up with a model that allows you to optimise the system to be linear phase. As you can see this is a complete different paradigm to anything else that's out there and not just Minidsp. I'm unable to do a comparison in regards to circuitry. And haven't done straight listening comparisons. I can compare to what I've heard at Scalford to what I've managed to come up with two Minidsp solutions I've used. I've achieved great results but neither as great as what I've heard from Exakt. Granted the quality of speakers and amplification wasn't comparable. I have compared my results against also lower level passive to active speaker conversions and Linn simply outperforms Minidsp. Optimising phase in Minidsp isn't that simple and everything stems from that.

 

[DocG]

Andrew's biggest issue going active (if I understand correctly) is having his Benchmark DAC redundant since DSP/crossover duties will be dealt with elswhere in integrated solution. Pointless to use analogue inputs on the miniDSP and go through additional AD/DA conversion. Might as well go straight digital source -> miniDSP via USB.

Also, what are the odds amateurs 100% ignorant on how to design a passive crossover ending up doing better speaker design with an active crossover? Chances are the passive crossovers in the K100s are better, regardless what you think you hear while fiddling with miniDSP. You are DIYing, not designing anything. Like changing mufflers and air filters on cars isn't engineering cars. My highest regard for people like Troels Gravesen, but I'm not him. I can cut wood, glue it together, install drivers and solder few components as a crossover from a DIY laundry list, but I have no clue how to design the speaker system or replace a passive with active crossover. Open any book or blog on crossover design and you'll see what I mean. It's a very steep learning curve.

With the unit I pointed to, the Benchmark won't be redundant; actually, he will need two more stereo-DACs to make it work.

As for designing a DSP-XO, I have no experience with MiniDSP, but with the DEQX it's really straightforward. You can have everything set automatically, or choose to implement whichever aspect manually (EQ to flavour; choose the XO-points and steepness, ...).

There's some commitment needed indeed, but that's part of the fun if you choose this path.

 

[Vladimir]

With the unit I pointed to, the Benchmark won't be redundant; actually, he will need two more stereo-DACs to make it work.

As for designing a DSP-XO, I have no experience with MiniDSP, but with the DEQX it's really straightforward. You can have everything set automatically, or choose to implement whichever aspect manually (EQ to flavour; choose the XO-points and steepness, ...).

That's brilliant. Now let's sum up the system. He needs to buy the following:

Benchmark DAC3 HGCs - £2,555 x2 = £5,110

DEQX HDP-4 - £4,512

DEQX ECM-8000 Mic - £226

NORD Hypex NCore NC500 - £600 x3 = £1,800

------------------------------------ TOTAL of £11,648

For a pair of USED £900 kit speakers, which he is using because he can't afford the £12,177 ATC SCM100A SLT.

 

[Vladimir]

 

[Vladimir]

With the unit I pointed to, the Benchmark won't be redundant; actually, he will need two more stereo-DACs to make it work.

As for designing a DSP-XO, I have no experience with MiniDSP, but with the DEQX it's really straightforward. You can have everything set automatically, or choose to implement whichever aspect manually (EQ to flavour; choose the XO-points and steepness, ...).

That's brilliant. Now let's sum up the system. He needs to buy the following:

Benchmark DAC3 HGCs - £2,555 x2 = £5,110

DEQX HDP-4 - £4,512

DEQX ECM-8000 Mic - £226

NORD Hypex NCore NC500 - £600 x3 = £1,800

------------------------------------ TOTAL of £11,648

For a pair of USED £900 kit speakers, which he is using because he can't afford the £12,177 ATC SCM100A SLT.

I'm tired of the forum again already... That was quick!

But I made ugly pics to visualize the two alternatives. *biggrin* ignore the prices math bit.

 

[DocG]

With the unit I pointed to, the Benchmark won't be redundant; actually, he will need two more stereo-DACs to make it work.

As for designing a DSP-XO, I have no experience with MiniDSP, but with the DEQX it's really straightforward. You can have everything set automatically, or choose to implement whichever aspect manually (EQ to flavour; choose the XO-points and steepness, ...).

That's brilliant. Now let's sum up the system. He needs to buy the following:

Benchmark DAC3 HGCs - £2,555 x2 = £5,110

DEQX HDP-4 - £4,512

DEQX ECM-8000 Mic - £226

NORD Hypex NCore NC500 - £600 x3 = £1,800

------------------------------------ TOTAL of £11,648

For a pair of USED £900 kit speakers, which he is using because he can't afford the £12,177 ATC SCM100A SLT.

I'm tired of the forum again already... That was quick!

EDIT: well, OK then...

1/ I advised him a MiniDSP for 170 $

2/ It would be silly to get two brandnew DAC3s for this project. Two more DAC1s would probably cost less than £1000 (but that would still be overkill IMO; I'd keep the DAC1 for the mids, and get sth far cheaper for bass and treble. But that's just me)

3/ plenty of amp options. One of Collin's 6ch amps would set him back £1499, but I'd start with a second hand 7.1 home cinema amp, an Onkyo or a Yamaha e.g.

I'm sure he would get something very decent for under £1500. There!

 

[DocG]

With the unit I pointed to, the Benchmark won't be redundant; actually, he will need two more stereo-DACs to make it work.

As for designing a DSP-XO, I have no experience with MiniDSP, but with the DEQX it's really straightforward. You can have everything set automatically, or choose to implement whichever aspect manually (EQ to flavour; choose the XO-points and steepness, ...).

That's brilliant. Now let's sum up the system. He needs to buy the following:

Benchmark DAC3 HGCs - £2,555 x2 = £5,110

DEQX HDP-4 - £4,512

DEQX ECM-8000 Mic - £226

NORD Hypex NCore NC500 - £600 x3 = £1,800

------------------------------------ TOTAL of £11,648

For a pair of USED £900 kit speakers, which he is using because he can't afford the £12,177 ATC SCM100A SLT.

I'm tired of the forum again already... That was quick!

But I made ugly pics to visualize the two alternatives. *biggrin* ignore the prices math bit.

Just edited my post. I'm sure you can make a pic with the nanoDIGI 2 x 8, three DAC1s and a 7ch Yammy.*ok*

 

[Vladimir]

With the unit I pointed to, the Benchmark won't be redundant; actually, he will need two more stereo-DACs to make it work.

As for designing a DSP-XO, I have no experience with MiniDSP, but with the DEQX it's really straightforward. You can have everything set automatically, or choose to implement whichever aspect manually (EQ to flavour; choose the XO-points and steepness, ...).

That's brilliant. Now let's sum up the system. He needs to buy the following:

Benchmark DAC3 HGCs - £2,555 x2 = £5,110

DEQX HDP-4 - £4,512

DEQX ECM-8000 Mic - £226

NORD Hypex NCore NC500 - £600 x3 = £1,800

------------------------------------ TOTAL of £11,648

For a pair of USED £900 kit speakers, which he is using because he can't afford the £12,177 ATC SCM100A SLT.

I'm tired of the forum again already... That was quick!

But I made ugly pics to visualize the two alternatives. *biggrin* ignore the prices math bit.

Just edited my post. I'm sure you can make a pic with the nanoDIGI 2 x 8, three DAC1s and a 7ch Yammy.*ok*

Since miniDSPs are tiny, I just show a laptop that will run them. The miniDSP will probably hang with the wires in the back. DAC1 sells for £500 on ebay. The Yammie costs £528.

 

[insider9]

I'm using a pair of Sony STR-DB930 AV for diy active conversion. Can accommodate up to a four way. At a whopping £80 for both amps.

They're 110W into 8 ohms per channel (into 4 channels each) and measure as well as my many times the cost Primares that I used to have. Amplification doesn't have to cost much.

Also I don't believe all people who attempt this will do it as a cost saving.

If it was all about value for money wouldn't we all buy good headphones and forget about speakers?

 

[DocG]

With the unit I pointed to, the Benchmark won't be redundant; actually, he will need two more stereo-DACs to make it work.

As for designing a DSP-XO, I have no experience with MiniDSP, but with the DEQX it's really straightforward. You can have everything set automatically, or choose to implement whichever aspect manually (EQ to flavour; choose the XO-points and steepness, ...).

That's brilliant. Now let's sum up the system. He needs to buy the following:

Benchmark DAC3 HGCs - £2,555 x2 = £5,110

DEQX HDP-4 - £4,512

DEQX ECM-8000 Mic - £226

NORD Hypex NCore NC500 - £600 x3 = £1,800

------------------------------------ TOTAL of £11,648

For a pair of USED £900 kit speakers, which he is using because he can't afford the £12,177 ATC SCM100A SLT.

I'm tired of the forum again already... That was quick!

But I made ugly pics to visualize the two alternatives. *biggrin* ignore the prices math bit.

Just edited my post. I'm sure you can make a pic with the nanoDIGI 2 x 8, three DAC1s and a 7ch Yammy.*ok*

Since miniDSPs are tiny, I just show a laptop that will run them. The miniDSP will probably hang with the wires in the back. DAC1 sells for £500 on ebay. The Yammie costs £528.

Yes, that looks better. Thanks, Vlad!

Now I'd get two DacMagics or something alike, probably £100 -150 each, instead of the extra DAC1s (just for the 'proof of concept' phase). That would make a total cost of £2300-2400. And not much loss if it turns out all nasty, and Andrew sells everything on again, and returns to good ole' box swapping...

Think of all the fun (and all the frustration along the road too, of course)!

 

[insider9]

I think that's an interesting and valid point made by DocG. Diy route with DSP mostly means less box swapping (you can see it as good or bad). Usually because you can get the sound you want with DSP, so don't chase the not so bright amp or leaner bass speakers etc.

 

[Vladimir]

If it was all about value for money wouldn't we all buy good headphones and forget about speakers?

Speakers are better than headphones for immersion in audio. Something screaming on my head feels very unnatural.

I think that's an interesting and valid point made by DocG. Diy route with DSP mostly means less box swapping (you can see it as good or bad). Usually because you can get the sound you want with DSP, so don't chase the not so bright amp or leaner bass speakers etc.

No DSP will make a dynamic speaker system sound like say electrostats. Dome tweeters won't sound like compression drivers with horns. DEQX can't make QUAD ESLs reproduce organ flat down to 28Hz like AR-9 would.

 

[Vladimir]

JBL LSR 708p + Benchmark DAC-3 HGC

 

[Vladimir]

JBL LSR 708p + Benchmark DAC-3 HGC

BTW I priced these £2,000 GBP each based on they sell for the same amount in euros €2,249.

But these ATC SCM50 Pro active studio monitors sell for £4,750, so which one is best no idea.

 

[insider9]

If it was all about value for money wouldn't we all buy good headphones and forget about speakers?

Speakers are better than headphones for immersion in audio. Something screaming on my head feels very unnatural. 

I think that's an interesting and valid point made by DocG. Diy route with DSP mostly means less box swapping (you can see it as good or bad). Usually because you can get the sound you want with DSP, so don't chase the not so bright amp or leaner bass speakers etc.

No DSP will make a dynamic speaker system sound like say electrostats. Dome tweeters won't sound like compression drivers with horns. DEQX can't make QUAD ESLs reproduce organ flat down to 28Hz like AR-9 would. 

Can't disagree with anything you said

I'll be honest and say vintage Jamo I'm using at present are so good that I didn't feel the need to turn them active or use DSP. In fact when I tried Dirac Live on them the midrange felt compressed and for a gain of extra 1dB of neutrality across the range it wasn't worth it.

 

[Andrewjvt]

To Vlad, Insider and docg

Where to start.
Vlad you are correct regards cost effective
Converting Wilmslow audiok100s into active isnot worth it and ive gone round in circles since last year with the same conclusion.
I can get 2ndhand atc atives for cheaper.

And ive heard the k100s through the hegel and to this day is sti the best adrenalin rush ive ever had with speaker demo. The passive crossover is quality.

Insider: i think ill probably make a simpler/cheaper 2way active some day to stratch my itch some time.
Once ive moved house I may need your help with measurements etc.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Ny need to get something ill be swapping my jbls fir for a set of 90s rowland ds90s.
Its a temp swap just for the hell of it to see how it sounds. Great active speakers and years ahead for its time

 

[Vladimir]

Ny need to get something ill be swapping my jbls fir for a set of 90s rowland ds90s. Its a temp swap just for the hell of it to see how it sounds. Great active speakers and years ahead for its time

Yup, those are legendary time travelers. Let us know how they sound, I'm personally currious.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Ny need to get something ill be swapping my jbls fir for a set of 90s rowland ds90s. Its a temp swap just for the hell of it to see how it sounds. Great active speakers and years ahead for its time

Yup, those are legendary time travelers. Let us know how they sound, I'm personally currious.

When i read up on them i laughed at avi proclaiming they were the first people to design what they did.

They come from Germany next week. Mybrother used them to mix but says they are too clinical to listen long and. Likes something warmer but lets see connected to the benchmark as straight monitors