Dummies guide to bi amping

[davedotco]

Which option dissipates more energy in 24h?

1) 5 minute 50 MT nuclear explosion.

2) Very fast constant flicks with your pinkey on a feather all day.

Specious argument. You are confusing instantaneous power with average power over a longer period. A bass drum thump happens, typically, at 60 to 80 beats per minute (70 bpm, from memory, is "standard" disco beat, timed to match the typical working beat of the human heart). In a power amplifier, that power is drawn from the power capacitors which are there to provide that instantaneous surge in energy.

Remember, like car batteries (which are in effect large electro-chemical capacitors) capacitors do not create energy (or power) they merely store electrical charge, a form of potential energy if you like. Try charging up a battery or capacitor and then discharging it. Eventually it goes flat. It has to be re-charged before it can give out more energy.

The instantaneous or peak power output of an amplifier is often quoted as peak music power output (PMPO) and is the sort of figure quoted to impress people who buy their stereos from an Argos catalogue.

What you need for the mid and high end is the continuous power output (often expressed as the root mean square or RMS output) of the amplifier. This isn't drawn from the power capacitors but the current across the transistors. To get higher RMS power utput you need higher capacity transistors, which are more expensive, which is why more powerful amplifiers are more expensive.

Simples.

Anyway, to Mr Sabbath, I would say bi-amp if you want to, it won't do any harm, then decide for yourself. Personally, I'm off to do some real engineering, designing a pipeline system to carry 2.6 billion cubic feet per day of natural gas from Katy, Texas, to Tuxpan, Mexico (about 600 miles).

Sorry old thing. Don't quite get your banter...*unknw*

Bizzarely when I did my degree I gained my work experience putting in large scale pipelines for the conversion to natural gas.

Boring as hell, which is why on graduation I went and got a job at A&M records, but it did leave me with an encyclopedic of east Londons 'greasy spoon' cafes.

 

[davedotco]

Financially sensible?

Wouldn't a bigger pair of monoblocks be better in all respects?

Yes. That's why most people don't recommend buying four Cyrus power amps, but spending the same (or less) money on two better (bigger, whatever) monoblocks instead.

Apart from drummerman, I didn't think anyone recommended Cyrus power amps for anything.

I am still somewhat at a loss as to what you are trying to say here, specifically with regards to bi-amping.

 

[Vladimir]

Which option dissipates more energy in 24h?

1) 5 minute 50 MT nuclear explosion.

2) Very fast constant flicks with your pinkey on a feather all day.

Specious argument. You are confusing instantaneous power with average power over a longer period. A bass drum thump happens, typically, at 60 to 80 beats per minute (70 bpm, from memory, is "standard" disco beat, timed to match the typical working beat of the human heart). In a power amplifier, that power is drawn from the power capacitors which are there to provide that instantaneous surge in energy.

Remember, like car batteries (which are in effect large electro-chemical capacitors) capacitors do not create energy (or power) they merely store electrical charge, a form of potential energy if you like. Try charging up a battery or capacitor and then discharging it. Eventually it goes flat. It has to be re-charged before it can give out more energy.

The instantaneous or peak power output of an amplifier is often quoted as peak music power output (PMPO) and is the sort of figure quoted to impress people who buy their stereos from an Argos catalogue.

What you need for the mid and high end is the continuous power output (often expressed as the root mean square or RMS output) of the amplifier. This isn't drawn from the power capacitors but the current across the transistors. To get higher RMS power utput you need higher capacity transistors, which are more expensive, which is why more powerful amplifiers are more expensive.

Simples.

I thought for a minute there I understood you in your previous post but after the rebuttal I really have no clue. *unknw*

MF and HF drivers use less power than LF drivers on average and continuously and instantenously and every other conceavable way. If anything, the driver power handling indicates this (RMS, DIN, Musical, PMPO...). Just read the label.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

ok people i see by most of the comments its a wast of money thats ok i just wanted to find out about biamping and what it was but see marantz power amp 2 channal is about £700 -£800 to buy but not intrested in wasting money for no reason and as i said i do like the sound i have but thought i got the pre outs on the 8005 see whats its about . what are mono blocks and what they used for ?

 

[gasolin]

Do you use metal brackets or speaker jumpers between the 2 terminals?

Speakers jumpers do make a difference so you can try experimenting with that, some spade,banaplugs and 1 meter of cable from different brands (or just what you use) if you feel like you want to improve sound a bit

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

what are mono blocks and what they used for ?

Monoblocks are simply mono (sinlge channel) power amplifiers. The idea is that you use one monoblock for left, one for right, and this avoids cross-talk between the left and right channels within a single stereo power amplifier.

Some stereo power amplifiers like the Cyrus X-power can be used either in stereo or mono mode, you just flick a switch on the back to turn a stereo amplifier into a twin mono one. I went this route with my last Cyrus setup in Scotchland, driving ProAc Studio 140 floor standers and using the 4 sets of speaker terminals thus available to (sort-of) bi-amp the speakers. In a 15 x 12 living room, the sound was quite impressive.

 

[davedotco]

what are mono blocks and what they used for ?

Monoblocks are simply mono (sinlge channel) power amplifiers. The idea is that you use one monoblock for left, one for right, and this avoids cross-talk between the left and right channels within a single stereo power amplifier.

Some stereo power amplifiers like the Cyrus X-power can be used either in stereo or mono mode, you just flick a switch on the back to turn a stereo amplifier into a twin mono one. I went this route with my last Cyrus setup in Scotchland, driving ProAc Studio 140 floor standers and using the 4 sets of speaker terminals thus available to (sort-of) bi-amp the speakers. In a 15 x 12 living room, the sound was quite impressive.

You are still not making much sense, how can you "bi-amp, sort of" with a single pair of monoblocks?

 

[gasolin]

ok people i see by most of the comments its a wast of money thats ok i just wanted to find out about biamping and what it was but see marantz power amp 2 channal is about £700 -£800 to buy but not intrested in wasting money for no reason and as i said i do like the sound i have but thought i got the pre outs on the 8005 see whats its about . what are mono blocks and what they used for ?

(monolock) music mabye a subwoofer or a center channel

 

[davedotco]

This is a term usually used for single channel power amplifiers, usually designed for use in pairs in hifi systems.

This guarantees total separation between channels and each has it's own onboard power supply. This is expensive, mostly because of the casework which takes up a large proportion (often the largest) of the unit's cost.

Stereo amplifiers can be dual mono with separate transformers and power supplies, which have the benefits of monoblocks but cheaper.

In my view the only justification for monoblocks is when the stereo version would be to big and heavy to be practical or in rare cases like Cyrus or Rotel where stereo power amplifiers can be switched to 'Bridge' mode, forming one single monoblock amplifier.

 

[Vladimir]

How about them monaural amps.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I did see some secondhand marantz mono blocks on eBay . So I take it that with theses mono blocks take away the use of the integrated amp ? And the mono blocks do the same job they work for each speaker ? So when we get down to it there no point in any of this because if you get your self a really good amp in the first place all theses things will do the same job of bi amping + mono blocks in a integrated amp anyway or am I on the wrong road here .

 

[Vladimir]

If you buy a true dual mono construction integrated amp, that is litteraly two monoblocks + a preamp sharing a case, power switch and power cord. Electrocompaniet ECI-1 is a good example.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

If you buy a true dual mono construction integrated amp, that is litteraly two monoblocks + a preamp sharing a case, power switch and power cord. Electrocompaniet ECI-1 is a good example.

ok thanks will investigate more

 

[davedotco]

I did see some secondhand marantz mono blocks on eBay . So I take it that with theses mono blocks take away the use of the integrated amp ? And the mono blocks do the same job they work for each speaker ? So when we get down to it there no point in any of this because if you get your self a really good amp in the first place all theses things will do the same job of bi amping + mono blocks in a integrated amp anyway or am I on the wrong road here .

You need to get to grips with the concept of pre-amp, power amp and integrated amp. What does what and how they can and can not work together.

This is basic stuff, try Wikki.

 

[Andrewjvt]

First off: you can experiment using your old amp for the hf and new one for the low but id be amazed if you can hear any difference and would not be supprised if the sq gets worse due to a less quality amp. So id def not go that route.

If you really want to bi amp id use the 8005 for hf and a seperate power amp with even more power for the lf. Need to be careful here to match the gain though.

Me personally, id use 4 or even six mono blocks to drive a set of speakersif i was rich and had money to burn but in reality that could cost up to and over £100 000.

But in our budget and reality i think its best to get a very good intergrated or pre and power.

Although mixing ss and valve sounds like a fun experiment but could go horribly wrong if not done well and how would you demo this to a point of getting used to the sound and not just a quick demo? Being shown by someone with the correct experience and not a sales agenda?

 

[Al ears]

what are mono blocks and what they used for ?

Monoblocks are simply mono (sinlge channel) power amplifiers. The idea is that you use one monoblock for left, one for right, and this avoids cross-talk between the left and right channels within a single stereo power amplifier.

Some stereo power amplifiers like the Cyrus X-power can be used either in stereo or mono mode, you just flick a switch on the back to turn a stereo amplifier into a twin mono one. I went this route with my last Cyrus setup in Scotchland, driving ProAc Studio 140 floor standers and using the 4 sets of speaker terminals thus available to (sort-of) bi-amp the speakers. In a 15 x 12 living room, the sound was quite impressive.

You are still not making much sense, how can you "bi-amp, sort of" with a single pair of monoblocks?

Dave, I believe this is where the four power amps mentioned earlier come in. The clue is in '4 sets of speaker terminals'

 

[Blacksabbath25]

what are mono blocks and what they used for ?

Monoblocks are simply mono (sinlge channel) power amplifiers. The idea is that you use one monoblock for left, one for right, and this avoids cross-talk between the left and right channels within a single stereo power amplifier.

Some stereo power amplifiers like the Cyrus X-power can be used either in stereo or mono mode, you just flick a switch on the back to turn a stereo amplifier into a twin mono one. I went this route with my last Cyrus setup in Scotchland, driving ProAc Studio 140 floor standers and using the 4 sets of speaker terminals thus available to (sort-of) bi-amp the speakers. In a 15 x 12 living room, the sound was quite impressive.

You are still not making much sense, how can you "bi-amp, sort of" with a single pair of monoblocks?

Dave, I believe this is where the four power amps mentioned earlier come in. The clue is in '4 sets of speaker terminals'

my speakers are bi wire but do not bother with that just wired on 1 set of terminals and the 8005 has a-b terminals for 2 sets of speakers . the cheapest route for me would be the power amp route if i went ahead

 

[davedotco]

what are mono blocks and what they used for ?

Monoblocks are simply mono (sinlge channel) power amplifiers. The idea is that you use one monoblock for left, one for right, and this avoids cross-talk between the left and right channels within a single stereo power amplifier.

Some stereo power amplifiers like the Cyrus X-power can be used either in stereo or mono mode, you just flick a switch on the back to turn a stereo amplifier into a twin mono one. I went this route with my last Cyrus setup in Scotchland, driving ProAc Studio 140 floor standers and using the 4 sets of speaker terminals thus available to (sort-of) bi-amp the speakers. In a 15 x 12 living room, the sound was quite impressive.

You are still not making much sense, how can you "bi-amp, sort of" with a single pair of monoblocks?

Dave, I believe this is where the four power amps mentioned earlier come in. The clue is in '4 sets of speaker terminals'

No, these are stereo amps 'bridged' to mono, hence 4 speaker terminals. It is not clear if he has 2 or 4 of the X-Power amplifiers.

At least, thats how I read it, Benedict is not making a lot of sense.

 

[Al ears]

what are mono blocks and what they used for ?

Monoblocks are simply mono (sinlge channel) power amplifiers. The idea is that you use one monoblock for left, one for right, and this avoids cross-talk between the left and right channels within a single stereo power amplifier.

Some stereo power amplifiers like the Cyrus X-power can be used either in stereo or mono mode, you just flick a switch on the back to turn a stereo amplifier into a twin mono one. I went this route with my last Cyrus setup in Scotchland, driving ProAc Studio 140 floor standers and using the 4 sets of speaker terminals thus available to (sort-of) bi-amp the speakers. In a 15 x 12 living room, the sound was quite impressive.

You are still not making much sense, how can you "bi-amp, sort of" with a single pair of monoblocks?

Dave, I believe this is where the four power amps mentioned earlier come in. The clue is in '4 sets of speaker terminals'

No, these are stereo amps 'bridged' to mono, hence 4 speaker terminals. It is not clear if he has 2 or 4 of the X-Power amplifiers.

At least, thats how I read it, Benedict is not making a lot of sense.

'Tis often the way with those living in different time zones.

 

[Vladimir]

Me personally, id use 4 or even six mono blocks to drive a set of speakersif i was rich and had money to burn but in reality that could cost up to and over £100 000.

I don't think 4 or even six Crown Macro Tech amps cost £100 000. If you buy 6 Bryston 7BSST² monoblocks, it will cost you around $30,000 for 3.6kW in 8 ohms.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Me personally, id use 4 or even six mono blocks to drive a set of speakersif i was rich and had money to burn but in reality that could cost up to and over £100 000.

I don't think 4 or even six Crown Macro Tech amps cost £100 000. If you buy 6 Bryston 7BSST² monoblocks, it will cost you around $30,000 for 3.6kW in 8 ohms.

i like hi fi but not that much

 

[Andrewjvt]

Me personally, id use 4 or even six mono blocks to drive a set of speakersif i was rich and had money to burn but in reality that could cost up to and over £100 000.

I don't think 4 or even six Crown Macro Tech amps cost £100 000. If you buy 6 Bryston 7BSST² monoblocks, it will cost you around $30,000 for 3.6kW in 8 ohms.

Including the kef muon's also
But my point was only that with normal working man budget bi amp and loads of mono blocks is not really required for good home sound.
But 3.6kw is serious power. Ive had a 2kw rig and that was bonkers.

 

[davedotco]

Me personally, id use 4 or even six mono blocks to drive a set of speakersif i was rich and had money to burn but in reality that could cost up to and over £100 000.

I don't think 4 or even six Crown Macro Tech amps cost £100 000. If you buy 6 Bryston 7BSST² monoblocks, it will cost you around $30,000 for 3.6kW in 8 ohms.

Including the kef muon's also But my point was only that with normal working man budget bi amp and loads of mono blocks is not really required for good home sound. But 3.6kw is serious power. Ive had a 2kw rig and that was bonkers.

And that is just the amps output remember, it might well require several times that power input.

Back in the day our multi-kilowatt systems used something like this.....

 

[TrevC]

Just thought I'd point out that there are no benefits in terms of available power in a passively biamped set up because both amplifiers are amplifying the full audio spectrum. The available total power output is therefore limited to the undistorted output of the lower power amplifier, regardless of whether it's used for treble or bass.

 

[davedotco]

Just thought I'd point out that there are no benefits in terms of available power in a passively biamped set up because both amplifiers are amplifying the full audio spectrum. The available total power output is therefore limited to the undistorted output of the lower power amplifier, regardless of whether it's used for treble or bass.

I alluded to this in an earlier post, good to have it spelled out so clearly.