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Disappointed with MA Bronze 5... or was it my fault?

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BigH

New member
Dec 29, 2012
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I would not buy new floorstanders for £500. I agree with Lindsayt have a look around for used speakers.
 

Oldskool1976

New member
Nov 25, 2011
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BigH said:
I would not buy new floorstanders for £500. I agree with Lindsayt have a look around for used speakers.
Its true op, just like the cake its all a lie, ignore all the speakers around that price point.
I mean wtf do Tannoy, Dali, MA, Elac and others know??

Good floorstanders at that price do not exist, but I'll let you in to secret.

The BigH Behemoth 2000 system is what you want.
500kg of pure hi-fi bliss delivered to your front door complete with forklift truck and a driver called Dave.

The twin monblocks pack in 5000 gazillion watts at 1ohm and weigh a mere 100kg each, with enough excess heat to cook a whale omelette.

Then theres the real star of the show, the 10ft/300kg BigH Concept speakers. It has more slam then the force of 1000 millennium falcons with the added bonus that you can be buried in it when it comes to checkout time.

I feel the above combo could just be what you're after and only $99,999,99!!

Bargin!
 

newlash09

Well-known member
Aug 28, 2015
219
45
10,820
My first proper 5.0 HT system was a audiopro avanto 5.0 which I bought for 500 sterling in 2013.

The floor standers had 8 inch passive woofers, which dominated the whole audio spectrum. And when i could'nt sort out the over whelming bass with my limited knowledge, I turned to the forum here. The suggestions i got, improved the situation, but never mitigated the problem. Then someone suggested that quality floor standers start upwards of the 1000 pound mark. So I saved and got the first speaker just above the 1000 mark, the Qacoustics concept 40's. And they are really great speakers. So, even i forward the suggestion i received. Either go for a 1000 pound speaker new, or buy something better pre-loved within your budget.
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
308
85
10,970
Just remember that it’s only people opinions that the Dali Zensor 7s are too bright as you might like them if you heard them for your self that’s why it’s important to demo speakers first before buying them .
 

newlash09

Well-known member
Aug 28, 2015
219
45
10,820
Blacksabbath25 said:
Just remember that it’s only people opinions that the Dali Zensor 7s are too bright as you might like them if you heard them for your self that’s why it’s important to demo speakers first before buying them .
Happy new year to you and your family. I believe most folks who complain that the Dali speakers are too bright, probably have the speakers toed-in, when they should'nt.
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
308
85
10,970
newlash09 said:
Blacksabbath25 said:
Just remember that it’s only people opinions that the Dali Zensor 7s are too bright as you might like them if you heard them for your self that’s why it’s important to demo speakers first before buying them .
Happy new year to you and your family. I believe most folks who complain that the Dali speakers are too bright, probably have the speakers toed-in, when they should'nt.
Happy new to you my friend I hope you and your family have a good and healthy new year

maybe newlash a hifi can sound different to everyone as one person would think it sounds great to them but to someone else it could come across as bright as not everyone hearing is the same as everyone else’s and taste . It’s all opinion based I am afraid
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
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Oldskool1976 said:
So you've heard both speakers? With the same amplification in the same room, because if not, you are even worse then the people who see no shortcomings in there kit.
Because at least they have heard what they are preaching.

No one is claiming they are Magicos but the fact he got a smallish floorstander in a massive room with a budget AV is more the problem.

Oh and last few pairs of bronze 5 that sold on ebay all went for around £400. Seems like they hold there value well, remind me again, how many people have bid on those goodmans???
I've heard neither speakers.

I've heard, rather more expensive MA Silver speakers. I really didn't like them. If they were relatively poor sounding speakers, what chance do the much cheaper Bronzes have of sounding anything but relatively "bad"?

Someone whose judgement I trust knows those Goodmans speakers well, and recommends them (but as he says "don't pay over £120 for them. Magisters are better"). And for £85 - or whatever they sell for - they are a lot cheaper than new Bronze 5's.

Seems like a no brainer to me for anyone starting out in hi-fi. Start with a pair of massively under-rated speakers for £100. Use them and enjoy them for what they are. Use them as a benchmark for comparing against any other speakers that you fancy. Survival of the fittest. If you find something else you prefer, sell them for what you bought them for. Doesn't have to be the Goodmans. Could be any other properly engineered speaker for £100.

Please note that I did say that the Goodmans aren't the best sounding speakers ever made. If you think I'm behaving worse than people who never criticise any aspects of the sound of the equipment that they've bought, then that's up to you. So far you've not put together a coherent argument as to why you think that's the case. Please feel free to do so.

£400 for used MA Bronze 5 speakers on ebay? What like this pair that sold for £112 on 29th October 2017? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Monitor-Audio-Bronze-5-Speakers/263275921320?hash=item3d4c77bfa8:g:0lwAAOSwlepZ46Pi

The depreciation prospects for MA Bronze speakers looks as bad as I'd expect. Whilst in 10 years time the Goodmans will still be worth £100.
 

MajorFubar

New member
Mar 3, 2010
690
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To be fair, some people just simply don't like buying used gear, along with the risks that go with it. Not necessarily my view (in fact my view couldn't be more opposite) but I can see their point. I really can't think of any piece of hifi which can't be potentially bettered for the same price second hand, so it seems a bit of an unfair comparison. You can probably buy an MOT'd Porsche 911 for the same price as a new Kia, but it's not really relevant that the Kia can't hope to compete on any level with the Porsche because one is a new car and one is a heavily depreciated performance sports car that once cost about ten times more.
 

Oldskool1976

New member
Nov 25, 2011
5
0
0
lindsayt said:
Oldskool1976 said:
So you've heard both speakers? With the same amplification in the same room, because if not, you are even worse then the people who see no shortcomings in there kit.
Because at least they have heard what they are preaching.

No one is claiming they are Magicos but the fact he got a smallish floorstander in a massive room with a budget AV is more the problem.

Oh and last few pairs of bronze 5 that sold on ebay all went for around £400. Seems like they hold there value well, remind me again, how many people have bid on those goodmans???
I've heard neither speakers.

I've heard, rather more expensive MA Silver speakers. I really didn't like them. If they were relatively poor sounding speakers, what chance do the much cheaper Bronzes have of sounding anything but relatively "bad"?

Someone whose judgement I trust knows those Goodmans speakers well, and recommends them (but as he says "don't pay over £120 for them. Magisters are better"). And for £85 - or whatever they sell for - they are a lot cheaper than new Bronze 5's.

Seems like a no brainer to me for anyone starting out in hi-fi. Start with a pair of massively under-rated speakers for £100. Use them and enjoy them for what they are. Use them as a benchmark for comparing against any other speakers that you fancy. Survival of the fittest. If you find something else you prefer, sell them for what you bought them for. Doesn't have to be the Goodmans. Could be any other properly engineered speaker for £100.

Please note that I did say that the Goodmans aren't the best sounding speakers ever made. If you think I'm behaving worse than people who never criticise any aspects of the sound of the equipment that they've bought, then that's up to you. So far you've not put together a coherent argument as to why you think that's the case. Please feel free to do so.

£400 for used MA Bronze 5 speakers on ebay? What like this pair that sold for £112 on 29th October 2017? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Monitor-Audio-Bronze-5-Speakers/263275921320?hash=item3d4c77bfa8:g:0lwAAOSwlepZ46Pi

The depreciation prospects for MA Bronze speakers looks as bad as I'd expect. Whilst in 10 years time the Goodmans will still be worth £100.
So you admit to giving advice without even hearing the speakers you are recommending??

Oh but someone you trust recommends them??

My argument was that you havn't even heard both sets and now you have proved me right and heres you still talking rubbish about a coherent argument .

Also nice try with the wrong link, those are the older bronze if you bothered to read you would see its the new bronze 5 we are talking about which have been selling for around £400.

D-

Must try better, see me after class.
 

Oldskool1976

New member
Nov 25, 2011
5
0
0
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=monitor%20audio%20bronze%205&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc&_trksid=p2045573.m1684

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Monitor-Audio-Bronze-5-Floor-Standing-Speakers-in-Walnut/292310769619?epid=2256048522&hash=item440f145fd3:g:wbwAAOSwdx1Z9eyI

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Monitor-Audio-Bronze-5-Floor-Standing-120w-Speaker-in-Black-Oak/172854391336?epid=2256048522&hash=item283eecb228:g:4q4AAOSw5n5ZhCm5
 

Oldskool1976

New member
Nov 25, 2011
5
0
0
MajorFubar said:
To be fair, some people just simply don't like buying used gear, along with the risks that go with it. Not necessarily my view (in fact my view couldn't be more opposite) but I can see their point. I really can't think of any piece of hifi which can't be potentially bettered for the same price second hand, so it seems a bit of an unfair comparison. You can probably buy an MOT'd Porsche 911 for the same price as a new Kia, but it's not really relevant that the Kia can't hope to compete on any level with the Porsche because one is a new car and one is a heavily depreciated performance sports car that once cost about ten times more.
I agree but to say that no new floorstanders that cost around £500 are not worth it, is just pure rubbish.
 

Oldskool1976

New member
Nov 25, 2011
5
0
0
newlash09 said:
My first proper 5.0 HT system was a audiopro avanto 5.0 which I bought for 500 sterling in 2013.

The floor standers had 8 inch passive woofers, which dominated the whole audio spectrum. And when i could'nt sort out the over whelming bass with my limited knowledge, I turned to the forum here. The suggestions i got, improved the situation, but never mitigated the problem. Then someone suggested that quality floor standers start upwards of the 1000 pound mark. So I saved and got the first speaker just above the 1000 mark, the Qacoustics concept 40's. And they are really great speakers. So, even i forward the suggestion i received. Either go for a 1000 pound speaker new, or buy something better pre-loved within your budget.
Thats 5 speakers for £500 though, floorstanders would have been worth around £200 in that system, maybe less.

Unless you gone through numerous sets of £500 floorstanders you can not, hand on heart, say that only floorstanders at a grand are worth it, no?
 

insider9

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2016
787
341
5,270
I've owned a number of Monitor Audio speakers. If anything these linked by Lindsay are better sounding than the new ones.

And for £400 second hand you'd be mad to buy any generation Monitor Audio Bronze speakers. And that's not to be critical of Bronze range or their owners just knowing how much better you could do with that money.
 

Oldskool1976

New member
Nov 25, 2011
5
0
0
insider9 said:
I've owned a number of Monitor Audio speakers. If anything these linked by Lindsay are better sounding than the new ones.

And for £400 second hand you'd be mad to buy any generation Monitor Audio Bronze speakers. And that's not to be critical of Bronze range or their owners just knowing how much better you could do with that money.
I agree there are much better deals 2nd hand then the Bronze but thats not what I'm debating.

One mans bright is a another man's warm and so forth.

People need to hear with their own ears before being so dismissive.
 

BigH

New member
Dec 29, 2012
97
1
0
£500 is not much if you break it down, 20 Tax, 40% dealer only leaves about £200 left for manufacturer which inc. profit, labour, overheads, marketing, transport, NI, tax etc., does not leave much to pay for quality cabinets and componets. Larger cabinets introduce physical problems. I've heard floorstanders under £1,000, I would not buy them but yes everyone has a choice.
 

Oldskool1976

New member
Nov 25, 2011
5
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0
It could also be said plenty of companies lose money on entry level products to let customers get a taste of the brand and move up the ladder.

Bulk buying and leftover parts from previous models, some companies like totem will even make there cabinets in house further reducing costs.

40% you say?

I find that astounding, any dealers that can confirm this?
 

insider9

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2016
787
341
5,270
Oldskool1976 said:
 

It could also be said plenty of companies lose money on entry level products to let customers get a taste of the brand and move up the ladder.

Bulk buying and leftover parts from previous models, some companies like totem will even make there cabinets in house further reducing costs.

40% you say?

I find that astounding, any dealers that can confirm this?
No dealer will confirm this. But it depends on manufacturer and as a ball park is the minimum expected.

Do you think that dealers sell at a loss when new lines are introduced and items are heavily reduced?

End of the day it's a niche market, you can't expect dealers to live on breadcrumbs.
 

Oldskool1976

New member
Nov 25, 2011
5
0
0
insider9 said:
Oldskool1976 said:
It could also be said plenty of companies lose money on entry level products to let customers get a taste of the brand and move up the ladder.

Bulk buying and leftover parts from previous models, some companies like totem will even make there cabinets in house further reducing costs.

40% you say?

I find that astounding, any dealers that can confirm this?
No dealer will confirm this. But it depends on manufacturer and as a ball park is the minimum expected.

Do you think that dealers sell at a loss when new lines are introduced and items are heavily reduced?

End of the day it's a niche market, you can't expect dealers to live on breadcrumbs.
Well maybe an ex hi-fi dealer could chime in, not that I'm calling you out but I'm shocked at the 40% being minimum.

As for selling at a loss, having never worked in the hi-fi industry, I have no idea.
But I worked at plenty of businesses that have sold items at a loss to gain floor space, also maybe the manufacturers take some of the hit when new lines are introduced??

Finally while I agree hi-fi is a niche market, 40% from a five figure hi-fi purchase is about as far from breadcrumbs as you can get, even when you factor in rent/wages etc.
 

BigH

New member
Dec 29, 2012
97
1
0
Oldskool1976 said:
insider9 said:
Oldskool1976 said:
It could also be said plenty of companies lose money on entry level products to let customers get a taste of the brand and move up the ladder.

Bulk buying and leftover parts from previous models, some companies like totem will even make there cabinets in house further reducing costs.

40% you say?

I find that astounding, any dealers that can confirm this?
No dealer will confirm this. But it depends on manufacturer and as a ball park is the minimum expected.

Do you think that dealers sell at a loss when new lines are introduced and items are heavily reduced?

End of the day it's a niche market, you can't expect dealers to live on breadcrumbs.
Well maybe an ex hi-fi dealer could chime in, not that I'm calling you out but I'm shocked at the 40% being minimum.

As for selling at a loss, having never worked in the hi-fi industry, I have no idea.But I worked at plenty of businesses that have sold items at a loss to gain floor space, also maybe the manufacturers take some of the hit when new lines are introduced??

Finally while I agree hi-fi is a niche market, 40% from a five figure hi-fi purchase is about as far from breadcrumbs as you can get, even when you factor in rent/wages etc.
Yes but there are lots of costs. High street shop or town centre, some have moved out recently. Staff, maybe not doing much work some days judging by some shops I go by. A lot of money tied up in stock. Discounts. Then there is all the demo stock. Stock that goes out of date. Sales. Many stock other products as well, a pure hifi shop is quite rare these days, just like WHF mag is now full of other stuff. I don't know how many survive to be honest. I think you will find many retailers (ex. food) make up prices by about 80-100%. I did see a price list once of retailers hifi prices.
 

Oldskool1976

New member
Nov 25, 2011
5
0
0
Truth in alot of what you say, although the food industry is different beast all together and don't get me started on the markup from your average pizza chain.

Its strange how many hi-fi shops have'nt evolved,back in the day there was a clothing shop that also sold records called Mash. Then there was Chuddies in tooting, barbers and record store!!

Would pay to see that price list...........
 

insider9

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2016
787
341
5,270
I've operated businesses with a minimum of 80% margin. It will vary product to product but as whole there needs to be enough to make this worth it. It's not like you will sell hifi worth thousands every day.
 

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
20
0
0
Oldskool1976 said:
insider9 said:
Oldskool1976 said:
It could also be said plenty of companies lose money on entry level products to let customers get a taste of the brand and move up the ladder.

Bulk buying and leftover parts from previous models, some companies like totem will even make there cabinets in house further reducing costs.

40% you say?

I find that astounding, any dealers that can confirm this?
No dealer will confirm this. But it depends on manufacturer and as a ball park is the minimum expected.

Do you think that dealers sell at a loss when new lines are introduced and items are heavily reduced?

End of the day it's a niche market, you can't expect dealers to live on breadcrumbs.
Well maybe an ex hi-fi dealer could chime in, not that I'm calling you out but I'm shocked at the 40% being minimum.

As for selling at a loss, having never worked in the hi-fi industry, I have no idea.But I worked at plenty of businesses that have sold items at a loss to gain floor space, also maybe the manufacturers take some of the hit when new lines are introduced??

Finally while I agree hi-fi is a niche market, 40% from a five figure hi-fi purchase is about as far from breadcrumbs as you can get, even when you factor in rent/wages etc.
As always, it depends on how it is calculated.

Normally trade price is a percentage reduction on the retail price, for specialist product 30% plus 5 or 10% extra for prompt payment is common. So roughly on third of the retail price goes to the dealer. Markup is something else and refers to the percentage increase in the dealers cost price.

So, take a £100 component, the dealer will typically pay around £65-70, a margin of 30-35%. However, since he pays that price, he marks it up by £30-35 to get to the £100 selling price. The markup is roughly 50% of the buying price.

You need to know whether you are talking about margin or markup, big difference.

In the mass/mainstream market things are different, margins can be much higher or much lower with the margin being made up by quantity discounts for example. There are also lots of deals to be done, some product being advertised virtually at cost, to be competitive others making very healthy margins, it varies.

For the buyer, forget retail price on mainstream goods, all that matters is the 'street price', what you actually pay. Street prices start high when the product is the latest, best thing and usually falls with time. be aware.
 

insider9

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2016
787
341
5,270
You are indeed right DDC. I was refering to gross profit (GP) to be exact GP%. I am aware that markup was mentioned earlier. Sure these numbers may shock a number of people but so would the operating costs if they only realised just how many lines are on profit and loss statement.
 

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
20
0
0
insider9 said:
You are indeed right DDC. I was refering to gross profit (GP) to be exact GP%. I am aware that markup was mentioned earlier. Sure these numbers may shock a number of people but so would the operating costs if they only realised just how many lines are on profit and loss statement.
My experiences are primarily of a relatively upmarket, specialist dealership. Our primary suppliers (the usual british suspects) worked pretty much along the lines described earlier, some slight variations but not much. Less established or well known suppliers would sometimes offer more discount (40 + 5% say) in an attempt to break into the market and some peripheral product, cables particularly, would often have higher margins, but in the main what I said is about right.

The mass/mainstream market is rather different, it is price driven and very competitive, Often volume driven this squeezed out the more specialised dealer who could (or would) not sell enough numbers to be competitive. I can remember occasions where it would have been cheaper for us to buy a product from Richers or Sevenoaks rather than order a 'one off' from the supplier.
 

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