Digital streamers with Floor standers fuller sound?

[ChemMan]

I am looking for advice/perspective on upgrading my sources. After completing volume leveling experiments with a decibel meter, I spent some time comparing. Tidal vs. CD. (tidal thru Macbook pro & Dragon Fly black; CD thru and old Rotel CD player circa 2001). CD a bit better.

I want a fuller sound especially at low volumes and my guys at the stereo store are recommending the Aurender N10 with Musical Fidelity M6s DAC which would go with my existing old school Velodyne sub, Arcam A39 and Kef LS50s, both two years old. Essentially they are of the opinion, and I agree, upgrading cables and such are not the way to improve sound at this point. In essence I am maxed out.

I own about 200 Cds and subscribe to Tidal. I am looking for a bit of advice. It seems a waste to buy a server just to stream Tidal when I don't own very many digital files. I feel like the prices are in the ballpark about 4500 euro combined price for both.

Thanks in advance

 

[ErwinC]

Just replace your setup with the KEF LS50 wireless speakers. These will sound clearly better, also at lower volumes. And it will be a lot cheaper.

 

[ChemMan]

but then I have to figure out how to sell the exsiting stuff. I have been round and round with my wife about this. It does everything I want as well.

 

[ErwinC]

That is a pitty. You only have to sell your speakers and amplifier and replace them by the wireless version. The wireles version is much better in my opinion and also contains streaming functionality. And it is a lot cheaper.

Either way, i would not spend 4500 Euro for a fuller sound at lower volumes in your setup.

According to me a better amplifier will give you better results, also at lower volumes.

 

[insider9]

It's a tought one. Yes, it's worth having a good source. But at 4,500 EUR it feels quite a lot compared to the rest of your system. Have you got any future plans to upgrade amp/speakers or would this be it?

I want a fuller sound especially at low volumes and my guys at the stereo store are recommending the Aurender N10 with Musical Fidelity M6s DAC which would go with my existing old school Velodyne sub, Arcam A39 and Kef LS50s, both two years old. Essentially they are of the opinion, and I agree, upgrading cables and such are not the way to improve sound at this point. In essence I am maxed out.

Can you describe what "fuller sound" means to you? Is it bass that you feel is lacking or is it something else? How do you feel about your system when it's played at mid-high volumes?

 

[ChemMan]

..that it sounds loud when you are in the room, but you can still have a normal conversation. A couple audiophile pals have expensive systems and they get this kind of effect. For instance, If I put Adele 25 song 5, because this has been my experiment control album, her voice is shockingly clear and detailed when I turn it up to about 30. (72.5 dB) Yet, I want to hear more of that piano. Or, on Tidal to get the same response it is 36 on the volume, but it is a bit thinner. Maybe it is a case of 50 year old ears. I do feel like I am getting enough bass. The sub runs off two cables coming from preamp out R and L. The volume there remains just a bump off min.

My research says the Musical Fidelity M6s Dac also functions as a pre-amp which would mean I could buy an amplifier to pair with it at a later date. So to answer your question I would continue to upgrade. After owning B&W CDM 1 se for twenty years and being super happy and even reluctant to sell them, the LS 50s are stunning speakers for the money and size, but I could and would compliment them with soemthing else.

The other route I was thinking still puts me at about 3000 if I get the Music Fid DAC and also a streamer like the Cambridge Audio Azur 851N.

My next step is to do some kind of demo whether in the store or at home. I bought the A39 sight unseen because I was living in Prague and had very little access to Hi-Fi. Athough it sounds a lot better than my old, old A70. I wish I would have had a chance to go better. Now I feel like I am stuck a bit, hence the idea of buying sources that won't ever really need upgrading. I am not super worried about the money. My wife and I fight over the volume more than the money, and we are probably always going to be apartment dwellers, so I will never have the dedicated sound room/office.

I would appreciate your thoughts.

 

[Strictly Stereo]

Try a different dealer. There are other, less costly options which would fit nicely into your system.

 

[nopiano]

Try a different dealer. There are other, less costly options which would fit nicely into your system.

I agree. A replay device in the Aurender league deserves a diet of hi res files, not a crummy streaming service. You can’t make a silk purse out of a pig’s ear; but I agree about the wireless LS50s.

 

[insider9]

What is it that you're able to demo? I'd suggest listening to amp+speaker pairings at your local dealer. I associate low level listening with amplifier performance. But that's only if the speakers are capable of delivering it. I'm not certain yours are. It's not a criticism, every component just sounds best at certain volume level. For instance my amp is for medium to high level listening, it's not that it is bad at low level but it just gets so much better when you listen to it louder. Would be great if LS50 owners could chip in as my demo of these speakers was below par.

4,500EUR is not small change. I'd expect good performance that matches your requirements. You can do a lot with it and spending it on Aurender would be really low on my list.

 

[CnoEvil]

FWIW. As an owner of LS50s, my thoughts are:

1. Stands:

- What stands are they on?

- Are the stands filled...and if so, with what.

- Are the speakers Blu Tak'd to the stands

- How are the stands connected to the floor and what sort of floor is it.

The stands and how they're filled, can make a very big difference on how the LS50s sound. Get it right and they sound much bigger than they are.

2. Amp

The Arcam A39 sounds very well with the Kefs.

3. Source

Try and get a listen to a Linn DS, even if it's the humble Sneaky - but the Majik is better again. I'm streaming Tidal through a Majik DS and it sounds really good...though I'm no longer using the LS50s.

4. Cables

Cables can be looked at after the rest of the system is sorted. IMO. Avoid silver coated copper and stick with no nonsense copper cables, like Linn K20 (ebay), Van Damme UP LC OFC, or QED 79 Strand.

5. Budget

If I was spending £4500 to transorm your system, it would be on an Arcam A49 (which can now be had for £2-2.5k) and a Majik DS. I have heard this combination and it sounds remarkably good. The Active version is also a good shout.

 

[ChemMan]

Stands are all metal they come in at a mass of 13.6 kg each. On feet, wood floor, unfilled. Tweeter is exactly 90 cm off the floor spekers are 2.3 m apart. Cables are these Audioquest bargain basement type 4 copper cables using bare wire connection.

As a couple other people mentioned here, the dealer is potentially a problem. They can get pretty much whatever I need, but I have to be careful with them. They are clearly upsellers. The more research I do, the more I realize I don't need an aurender. I don't really need a network server, I don't have an digital files to speak of and zero hi-res. Tidal and 200 or so CDs is about it for me.

The more I read, the less need I see for a big chunk of change on a streaming device. I just want to get out of the computer. There are two camps out there regarding this it seems. Computer people are saying the streaming device is irrelevant as it is simply transporting a digital file and not coloring the music. Others are going by there ears and saying it does.

So I am thinking I should spend some money on a good DAC, and a music streamer that can be controlled via a tablet or phone.

If the amplifier really is the issue, than I guess I am sunk. I don't know beans about the secondary sales market for used hi-fi in Belgium if I want to try and unload stuff.

Thoughts?

 

[CnoEvil]

- Try filling stands with Kiln Dried sand, further dried in the oven if necessary. If this gives too much bass, try filling with uncooked rice.

- Make up your mind by listening....then spend your money based on whether you think any improvement is worth the money.

- IME The Source is critical and needs to be in balance (quality wise) with the system. You cannot take other peoples' opinions as gospel...as they can only speak for their preferences. I have listened to all sorts of DACs and Streamers...and Linn gives me what what I'm looking for.

- The Arcam A39 is not the problem per se imo.....but the A49 is a fairly dramatic step up (as you'd expect for the price difference).

- Pathos make great Amps as well.

IMO. Only use the info and suggestions you get on here as research.....and a basis for trying stuff out. This is the only way you will find out what is right for you.

 

[ChemMan]

...have them set something up for me there like a similar amp and speaker set up to mine and then plug a few different dacs in from my computer. They are of the opinion my dragon fly is junk except for headphones.

Same with choosing a streamer I guess. Compare to the computer.

With all the reading going on now, it's not just the sound. I want to get away from using a computer to put Tidal into my system. I want to have something plugged into ethernet that deals with Tidal for me and have it connect directly to the DAC and then I can control music with phone or tablet. On the other hand, if the 20 year old CD player sounds a tad bit fuller than Tidal I need to address this issue as well. My guess would be thru the DAC, but clearly I've been wrong before. I am also reading that USB connected DACS are not ideal (coax is better) and also this business with delivering a digital file to your DAC and worrying about "jitters" is mainly nonsense.

In essence, who knows what to believe. Even Tidal's MQA is getting dirt thrown on it in professional testing.

 

[CnoEvil]

With a Linn DS, you will need a NAS and rip any music onto it.

Linn supports Tidal and you even get a 3 month free trial

Going this way does away with your PC (except for ripping) and goes with a Hard Wired ethernet network.

You need to start somewhere - and demoing a DS into an Arcam, driving LS50s will give you a good benchmark. I suggest this, as it's something I'm very familiar with.

I used to have a Highend Linn Karik/Numerik CDP....which was comfortably out performed by the Linn Sneaky. This was a bit of an eye-opener.

 

[newlash09]

For 4500 euros, I would add the under mentioned to your audition list :

Bluesound node 2 > chord qutest dac > arcam a49

You could replace the bluesound node 2 + chord dac with the Linn Majik to tidy up on cabling.

Or if you are willing to up your budget and get a devialet 120, it would replace all the three that I mentioned

 

[ChemMan]

I have to start somewhere.

 

[CnoEvil]

I have to start somewhere.

Once you have an opinion on something - good, bad or indifferent - and can describe what you like or dislike, then we can take it from there with further suggestions.

At this stage, I would recommend hearing stuff at dealers. Then when you have pinned down something you like, you can see if they will let you have a home dem. If they won't do that (and a good dealer should), then buy with the ability to return, if it doesn't sound right in your room.

IMO. Start off with the cheapest upgrade - which is filling your stands. This can make a dramatic difference ie. filling out the sound, making it "richer" at lower volumes.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

If you did want to try a bit of streaming you could buy a Yamaha WXC 50 pre streamer to stream tidal and rip some cds on your Pc for cheap money or buy a streamer on eBay secondhand like a linn streamer if you was interested to go down that road .

The Arcam A39 amplifier you have is pretty good but the Arcam A49 is better still considering it’s got 50 watts of class A which would sound pretty good but I can not comment on the kef ls50s what they sound like at a low volume as I’ve never listened to them before .

But I would not be looking at a Dac with the money I would be looking at the speakers maybe as the the Arcam A39 is a very capable amplifier but there are some good deals on the Arcam A49 if you wanted to go that way but in case of the streamer and your only interested in listening to tidal and want to keep the cost down the Yamaha wxc 50 is a good little streamer for the money and it has its own built in Dac as well .

one thought and like I’ve said I’ve not heard the Kefs but what about a sub would that fill the sound out a bit more maybe someone like Cno could say if that would make any difference but my feelings are change the speakers .

 

[ChemMan]

I have bounced all over the web and have not found anything telling me the Linn Majik has an onboard DAC?

 

[CnoEvil]

I have bounced all over the web and have not found anything telling me the Linn Majik has an onboard DAC?

http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Up-sampling

All models of DS have a DAC...but Linn use their own more powerful Up-Sampling Engine.

 

[ChemMan]

When I bought my first system with the B&W CDM 1 se I was abot to set them up with the CD player I had chosen and then put in four different amplifiers right at the store. The best thing ever!!! I had to choose between Arcam A60 A70 and A80. Also whatever Musical Fidelity amp they had at that time. MF sonded best but I didn't want to spend the extra money. Settled on the A70 without ever reading a review; thankfully my ears did the choosing. I hope I can do some of this again.

Lots of folks are recommending the A49 with 50 watts class A. Mine only has 20 before class G kicks in, but at lower volumes I am using the class A part of the amp right? So adding more watts at low volumes does or does not increase the fullness of sound?

Sorry about being such a neophyte.

 

[CnoEvil]

Class G is a system of rails that allow their amps to stay longer in Class A, without using such a "power penalty"

https://www.arcam.co.uk/ugc/tor/avr850/Class%20G%20Explained/Class_G_the_ultimate_amplifier_technology_150714_A.pdf

The extra oomph of the A49, will make its presence felt at all volumes, as it will give extra bass and cope with dynamic shifts better.

IME The LS50s are exceptionally good speakers, with a lot of headroom....they just get better and better, as the Source and Amps improve.

I mentioned the A49, as it is available at significant discounts (at least in the UK).

 

[jjbomber]

A couple audiophile pals have expensive systems and they get this kind of effect.

There's your answer. Anything you buy from now on will always be compared in your mind to your pals systems. Copy whatever they have. If it is out of price range, you will have to suggest to your pals that they buy a new system and offer to buy theirs! Or yu can upgrade one component at a time. Please don't waste waste your money buying kit that isn't as good as your pals. You will never be happy and end up wasting even more money. Your pals have the Holy Grail, so copy them.

 

[Vaprak001]

Take a day trip to the Netherlands and visit Stassen Hifi. They stock most of the brands that have been suggested here so I'm sure could demo the multiple combinations(no connection other than being a previous customer).

I've had similar problems to you, trying to get my all-digital study system up and running. Started with PC > AV Amp > KEF LS50's, very unsatisfying sound that nearly had me selling the speakers. Added a Subwoofer, better overall but Kefs still not right. Deliberated for quite some time over streaming pre-amps, so long in fact I noticed software/technology kept changing and I became concerned that I'd buy something that would become quickly redundant. Decided I'd always keep a PC/laptop front-end (which I update fairly frequently anyway) and allocate DAC duties to a pre via co-ax or USB. Settled with the Onkyo P3000/M5000 combo from Stassen (still available for c.3500 euros). This set plays beautifully with the Kefs and has subwoofer out. I have previously added a NAS to see how it worked and I'd recommend it in a lounge/ listening room although it was entirely redundant at my desk.

I've since moved the M5000 (and an additional one I bought) to HT duties, but still have the P3000 into a Bryston power amp. For me, a clever digital pre-amp is the way to go. If you go to Stassen, brands like Nad and Parasound can be auditioned, but there are lots of other brands that have similarly capabale pre's. With 4500 euros and whatever you sell/ exchange the Arcam for you'd be able to get a great pre/ power combo.

 

[ChemMan]

...taking a day trip. Though you might surprised to know that my little fellow of 20 omnths has very little patience with etended drives. Four hours round trip would normally be child's play. But this child....???

Definitely a good idea. I will try to get to my store in the next day or two and see what they will do about listening.

Thanks man.