Digital streamers with Floor standers fuller sound?

[CnoEvil]

Let us know how you get on.

 

[jimmy1]

I think that streamer and dac would be overkill to be honest, the cambridge azur streamer already has a quality dac built in that would absolutely outperform the dragonfly black, and usb dac normally handles higher bitrates than optical but not necesserily coaxial.

 

[ChemMan]

..now I have two streamers in mind: the Cambridge Azur and the Linn Majik. I had read about the Cambridge, and apparently it's the best one they make.

 

[ChemMan]

..today's experiment was to level the volume on a Tidal non master, Tidal Master and CD. I chose Steely Dan's Time ouf of mind. The clarity, separation and soundstage is good across the board. Once I adjusted for volume differences I really couldn't tell much difference between the Master and the CD. Which was unlike what I found on my last experiment where CD was a bit better than Tidal HiFi with song 5 on Adele's record 25. Slight difference.

On the other hand I was unable to control all variables in that the DAC is different in the CD player while I use the Dragon Fly on the macbook and Tidal. Also, the volume level was only at 35, which by extrapolation from data collection comes in at 66.9 dB. Not terribly loud. But only so much can be done while the little man gets a nap. Chemistry teacher by training; stay-at-home dad by circumstance.

I still need to get the sand thing going. once the little fella gets up it's off to the stereo store.

 

[ChemMan]

...That would be superb, but the gap in funds is considerable I am afraid.

 

[insider9]

Since you're considering other components now, have a look at something like Primare I35. There's many capable amps with streaming functionality built in and very good DACs nowadays.

If you choose wisely you could have a one box solution. It doesn't mean a sacrifice in performance any more. But depends on the produce. If I didn't use Roon and DSP my Hegel Rost would suffice for my needs.

Demo is always a must and it needs to fit your needs. Don't be swayed by reviews.

 

[ChemMan]

You are absolutely correct. I was just round the stereo store and we got to chatting about the reviews. I have also been in the wine business for a long time and use the reviews as a guide not the bible. The fact is palates are somewhat like ears in this case. We all have them but they have their own preferences. Tomorrow morning I am dragging my computer and the A 39 down to the store. They have LS 50's for demo. I am going to run as close to a controlled expreiment as I can.

 

[Strictly Stereo]

...If I didn't use Roon and DSP my Hegel Rost would suffice for my needs.

Have you tried the AirPlay integration?

 

[insider9]

Tried Airplay a few times. Including when I visited Blacksabbath25. It works, but should I use it at home I'd use Upnp. Bubbleupnp works extremely well with it.

Any idea why MQA is on Hegels website under Rost?

 

[ChemMan]

There is one other consideration I suppose is lying aournd near the bottom of my thought process. My wife and I move to a new country every three to five years.
Tomorrow I go to the shop with the computer, amp and they have the same speakers. I'll try and set up a controlled experiment as best I can. The way I see it I have five options: 1. Sell all and buy the KEF LS 50 wireless. It has everything I need. $2200 I can sell the existing system for close. How to find a buyer? They don't do trade-in here. If it sounds a good as everything I have heard and read. 2. Add an all in one music streamer for (Tidal) with built in DAC. I want OUT of my computer. I hate using it for music. There are some good ones between 1500 and 2500 3. Add a DAC less streamer and a component DAC. 4. Sell everything but the speakers and buy an all in one amp/streamer/DAC. 2500 and up for good ones/ Budget 3500. 5. Give up.

 

[CnoEvil]

There is no issue over how the LS50W sounds...there were issues over its operation...which others would be better talking about. Just make sure you can live with any compromise (if they haven't already fixed it).

 

[Pedro2]

I would also consider the Linn Majik; either new or second hand (some great value bargains to be had here as Linn owners tend to upgrade and move their old kit on, usually in good or better condition). The Majik has HDMI as well as many other inputs that allow TVs, Freesat boxes and DVD players to pass sound through to your amp and speakers. As Cno has already mentioned, try and get to hear one.

From my own hi fi journey, I have gone down the active speaker route and now have a pair of acoustic energy actives on the end of a Linn streamer. The sound is extremely good with the speakers presentation best described as full and meaty, yet detailed and refined when it's required. It's also quite a simple set up; just one streamer and two active speakers. If you wanted to, the Majik has its own built in amp which could drive your LS50s, although I doubt this would match the fully active option I've described above (only guessing here as I've never done the comparison).

The cost of Linn Majik plus AE1a between £2800 and £3900 depending on new or second hand Linn.

 

[CnoEvil]

I agree with Pedro 2.....but just a point of clarification......what he is describing is the Majik DSM (as opposed to the DS), which is the version with the Amp and Inputs.

I have heard it driving LS50s....and it sounds very good indeed.

 

[ChemMan]

If you're running a Linn DSM and it has an integrated amp within the unit how do the active speakers work? They are also amplified from within as far as I understand.

 

[CnoEvil]

If you're running a Linn DSM and it has an integrated amp within the unit how do the active speakers work? They are also amplified from within as far as I understand.

Pedro 2 can answer for himself....but he runs an Akurate DSM, which (confusingly) doesn't have a built-in Amp. I also think the Majik DSM can be used as a Pre, along with Actives.

 

[ChemMan]

Holy Cow! Cno thaks for the heads up. I have been surveying the wreckage on the web for a half hour now and it is a littany of bad news, unsatisfied owners and poor customer service. Yikes. No one seems to want to write anything positive. But I suppose the squeaky wheel gets the grease. I am really surprised given how fond of my wired version I am.

 

[ChemMan]

...more questions. No surprise right?

1. First comparison was LS 50w to LS 50 thru my Arcam. No contest. Wireless crushed it. BUT then, not two songs into our demo, the app started misbehaving and we couldn't get back in gear. Given all I read yesterday, I will wait until someone writes about them after five years. 18 months is not long enough. Back to square one.

2. After listening to me talk about what I wanted from the sound he recommended a floor stander. We sampled my LS 50 vs. both the KEF R500 and B&W 683 both thru my speaker cables which again both blew away the LS 50. Then we went speaker 1/2 with R500 and 683. Tough to call, on Steely Dan Gaucho I prefered the R500 a bit. Beatles White Album the 683 was my prefrence. I finally understand what they mean about "timing" in the reviews. LS 50s will now be sold or held onto for travel as I am getting Floor Standers!

3. Compared the Sonos connect to MacBook pro with Dragon Fly black and Tidal. We did this with the LS50s and with the 683. In both cases Sonos was superior. Slightly with the LS50, but more pronounced with 683. He even provided the identical interconnect from Sonos to Amp that I was using for the Macbook. Macbook becomes computer again. (thanks the seven) DragonFly Black in Limbo.

4. For those interested in the MQA debate: Sonos vs. Tidal MQA on Gaucho and Dragonfly. Winner was still Sonos running the non-MQA file from Tidal off the app on Smart Phone.

5. It's nice to know I can now get that full sound I was hoping for by getting different speakers vs the amp. I was pleased with the performance of the A39 with both floor standers. Though more power would be nice. Piece by Piece I say.

Questions: (or should I post them in a diferent forum?)

 

[CnoEvil]

What you are now finding out, is that there comes a point where you have to stop researching and start listening.

Some thoughts on your demo:

- I have done the LS50 vs R500 several times. The LS50 has strengths, by being very clean, fast and detailed (and really benefit from superior amplification)....but do not have the scale and impact of the R500s. If you have the room and are looking for a much bigger sound, the R500s are really good (and would probably be my choice).

- I can't really comment on the B&Ws, except you will need to play a very wide variety of music through both them and the Kefs to make up your mind.

- I also believe you should get a big improvement with something like a Linn DS as a Source....and it might also help you make up your mind over the speakers. IMO Linn -> Arcam -> Kef sounds very musical.

- If you have further questions we can help with - Fire away.

Keep demoing and trust your preferences.

 

[ChemMan]

Questions:

1. Other Floor Standing Speaker recs in this price range or a bit higher? He was quoting me 1500 euro for 683 and 2000 for R 500. I know stuff is cheaper in the UK, but in order to get it to Belgium I either drive over or pay for shippping from an ouside parcel company. UK retail outlets that don't have EU exclusivity are precluded from shipping to the continent. You get around that by parcel service.

2. Almost all streamers have built in DAC?

3. In this price range (about 400), there is Bluesound node 2 (he said the app is not as good as Sonos but it sounds better) The Arcam rPlay is the same price, but I know nothing other than the reviews. Up in price and sound quality are the Cambridge streamers but he said the app really sucks. Finally we get to Linn Majic DS and the Naim with the ND5 XS and the XS 2 out any day now for a reportedly lower price in the Magazine but my guy said it will be more. Anyway Around the 2000 euro price tag for either. (I know they all have different features, but what I am most interested in is sonic fullness/quality/separation.)

**** It's important to note, I don't own ANY hi-res files. In fact, unless DSD, PCM and AAC and FLAC are just different formats that have bit rates between 16 and 24 and sampling rates between 44.1 and 196 than I don't even know what they do. The only thing I know is apple lossless on my Macbook and MQA on Tidal. ****** I hear slight diferences from recording to recording even when comparing CD but not enough to say I like someting better.

4. Do I save the 1500 difference between a Linn or Naim and the Sonos (or something similar) to buy hi-res files?

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I thought it might had been your kef ls50s at fault and it might of been down to your speakers but the only way you will find out is demo some stuff for your self that’s the only way because reviews are ok but it’s about finding out what you like as everyone’s taste is different as well as the reviewers taste so you can only use the reviews as a guide that’s all .

but glad you have found what was wrong and sorted it out

 

[Macspur]

Another streamer to seriously consider is the Innuous Zenith MK2, this also has a built in CD ripper, rips CD's to FLAK or WAV, no built in DAC though. I have Sonos Connect and the Zenith hooked up to an Audiolab M DAC+ and the SQ is superb.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[ChemMan]

... it is a nice feeling to know what I need and it is in reach. Now I just need to decide on the streamer and which floor standers. I also need to sell some stuff if I can, but as far as sunk costs go, I was more worried about not needing the A 39 than I was the LS 50s. They are small enough to find a use for if needs be.

I appreciate the input. Cheers

 

[CnoEvil]

Questions:

1. Other Floor Standing Speaker recs in this price range or a bit higher? He was quoting me 1500 euro for 683 and 2000 for R 500. I know stuff is cheaper in the UK, but in order to get it to Belgium I either drive over or pay for shippping from an ouside parcel company. UK retail outlets that don't have EU exclusivity are precluded from shipping to the continent. You get around that by parcel service.

2. Almost all streamers have built in DAC?

3. In this price range (about 400), there is Bluesound node 2 (he said the app is not as good as Sonos but it sounds better) The Arcam rPlay is the same price, but I know nothing other than the reviews. Up in price and sound quality are the Cambridge streamers but he said the app really sucks. Finally we get to Linn Majic DS and the Naim with the ND5 XS and the XS 2 out any day now for a reportedly lower price in the Magazine but my guy said it will be more. Anyway Around the 2000 euro price tag for either. (I know they all have different features, but what I am most interested in is sonic fullness/quality/separation.)

**** It's important to note, I don't own ANY hi-res files. In fact, unless DSD, PCM and AAC and FLAC are just different formats that have bit rates between 16 and 24 and sampling rates between 44.1 and 196 than I don't even know what they do. The only thing I know is apple lossless on my Macbook and MQA on Tidal. ****** I hear slight diferences from recording to recording even when comparing CD but not enough to say I like someting better.

4. Do I save the 1500 difference between a Linn or Naim and the Sonos (or something similar) to buy hi-res files?

1. When I last checked, the R500s were £1500 in UK. I think they are a forgiving speaker, with the benefit of the UniQ system....so on axis listening is much less crucial. http://uk.kef.com/explore-kef/kef-innovation/uni-q

2. Almost all do, but there are companies like Cyrus, that have a model that leaves out the DAC.

3. Re Linn vs Naim - you need to hear both and will likely prefer one over the other. Linn is more refined and less in your face. I think it is more accurate for piano and to me sounds more musical. Naim is a more "Foot Tappy", ballsy presentation (which I find gets tiring after a while, but other people really like).

4. At this stage, don't worry about 24 bit.....in fact the quality of mastering is more important imo.

5. The size of the difference you hear is often personal...and the subtlties of the differences often reveal themselves over time and familiarity. One person's "big difference", is another person's "barely noticable". You need to pick intricate music you know really well and listen for clarity, separation, detail and ambient info (creaking chairs, breathing, squeak of the fingers on a Double Bass string and the resonant note of a piano).

The value you put on that difference is up to you and your wallet.....but a better Source will stand you in good stead for future upgrades (like Amp). A system needs to be in balance, both in terms of Quality and Synergy.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

And I would look at other speakers before committing your self to Kef floor standers I can recommend Dali opticon 6s £1200 new just add them to your demo list but basically use a hybrid tweeter so you place them firing straight ahead and they will work with the Arcam A39 .

But please try as meany floor standing speakers as possible before buying and if possible try to get a home demo then at least you no what they sound like at home .

I do recommend the Yamaha wxc 50 streamer not a lot of money but very good for what it does and has a built in Dac too and maybe buy a secondhand one on eBay cheaper still and maybe if you find the speakers you like a lot and your no straight away when you find that special speaker and see if they are on eBay as a mint pair or ex demo you can save a lot of money this way .

 

[emcc_3]

I can second the opticons for a demo. They were on my demo list early this year along with the Kef r series. Though I ultimately ended up with KEF r700s I really enjoyed the Dalis and preferred them to the r500. They are a little brighter than the r series.