Difficult times for the HiFi forum

[Sospri]

You have now young people buyng Vinyl, and the vinyl demand is rising and the same goes with TT salles. Maybe young people are realizing that analog is better that digital.

I've saw the birth of CDs and the death of vinyl, and 30 years afther I see the reverse.

But the harsh fact remains that vinyl LP sales (despite still increasing year-on-year) are tiny and will remain tiny...

"Despite the growth in digital formats, the CD remained popular with album buyers in 2012, accounting for more than two-thirds (69.1%) of total sales compared to a 30.4% share for digital albums and 0.4% for vinyl LPs."

(MusicWeek quoting BPI figures for 2012.)

thanks for the numbers Chebby!

Even if they are out of date.............

 

[Hi-FiOutlaw]

Brands struggle to isolate the amplifier from external vibrations.

Now, putting the amplifier inside the loudspeaker is not kind building your house in the middle of a tornado?

 

[chebby]

You have now young people buyng Vinyl, and the vinyl demand is rising and the same goes with TT salles. Maybe young people are realizing that analog is better that digital.

I've saw the birth of CDs and the death of vinyl, and 30 years afther I see the reverse.

But the harsh fact remains that vinyl LP sales (despite still increasing year-on-year) are tiny and will remain tiny...

"Despite the growth in digital formats, the CD remained popular with album buyers in 2012, accounting for more than two-thirds (69.1%) of total sales compared to a 30.4% share for digital albums and 0.4% for vinyl LPs."

(MusicWeek quoting BPI figures for 2012.)

thanks for the numbers Chebby!

Even if they are out of date.............

That's the nature of annual stats. They will always be 'out of date' by the time they are published.

 

[BigH]

Brands struggle to isolate the amplifier from external vibrations.

Now, putting the amplifier inside the loudspeaker is not kind building your house in the middle of a tornado?

Really so why do PMC who make both active and passive speakers say that actives are clearly better. The amp is not the same as a source like a TT or cd player.

 

[AEJim]

I think on a more general point here, many people seem to be fans of certain brands and recommend them endlessly in many threads, just seems that fans of some brands/products get criticised while others are praised for their opinions.

Many of those doing the criticising are as guilty of the same behaviour with their own favourite products but seem oblivious to the fact.

 

[Hi-FiOutlaw]

Brands struggle to isolate the amplifier from external vibrations.

Now, putting the amplifier inside the loudspeaker is not kind building your house in the middle of a tornado?

Really so why do PMC who make both active and passive speakers say that actives are clearly better. The amp is not the same as a source like a TT or cd player.

Of course it isn't.

But they do struggle to isolite just the same.

 

[chebby]

Brands struggle to isolate the amplifier from external vibrations.

Now, putting the amplifier inside the loudspeaker is not kind building your house in the middle of a tornado?

That, to me, suggests that the benefits of such amplifier isolation measures are over emphasised. (And, I will dare to say, over marketed and overpriced with respect to their efficacy.)

 

[plastic penguin]

Seems that fans of some brands/products get criticised while others are praised for their opinions.

Many of those doing the criticising are as guilty of the same behaviour with their own favourite products but seem oblivious to the fact.

That's me. :?

 

[hoopsontoast]

Brands struggle to isolate the amplifier from external vibrations.

Now, putting the amplifier inside the loudspeaker is not kind building your house in the middle of a tornado?

Really so why do PMC who make both active and passive speakers say that actives are clearly better. The amp is not the same as a source like a TT or cd player.

Give it a rest.

This will go round in circles. PMC say that actives are technically better, and also their most expensive speakers they sell are active (with seperate off board amplifiers BTW) so if they did not say they were better, why would anyone buy them over the cheaper passive versions?

There is NO technical reason to put the amplifiers/crossovers inside the cabinet, its pure convinience. There are many technical reasons NOT to put the electronics inside, Heat and Vibration are two to start with.

Active is not always better than Passive, it should be but it just isnt. As I have said many a time, there are far too many more important factors to take into consideration.

 

[cheeseboy]

Brands struggle to isolate the amplifier from external vibrations.

doesn't make any difference. If you don't believe me, whap a cd on, and go and wobble your amp. I bet the sound doesn't change at all.

If it does change, then a quick recording or said sound change would help clear the matter up and I'll ****** off and eat my hat 😀

edit - just to say the edited work wasn't that offensive, so please don't think I was being agressive.

 

[John Duncan]

I think on a more general point here, many people seem to be fans of certain brands and recommend them endlessly in many threads, just seems that fans of some brands/products get criticised while others are praised for their opinions.

Many of those doing the criticising are as guilty of the same behaviour with their own favourite products but seem oblivious to the fact.

This is a valid point which I feel deserves a response.

I do not have any objection to people recommending any - ANY - brand, provided I can believe that it is an informed response to a poster's question. The difficulty I have is when people recommend a brand or, especially, deride other brands, when they have no experience of the products they are recommending or deriding, they just 'read something somewhere'.

For example, I find it absurd that one poster on here can describe the strengths and weaknesses of the AVI ADM40 when he hasn't even heard them in isolation, let alone in comparison to other systems. I would also question some people's assertions about products being the be-all-an-end-all in music reproduction, when the last thing they had to compare them with was a pair of wardrobes with 15" drivers. If you hear one product and have compared it to others and find it vastly better in terms of value, aesthetics, performance or functionality, then marvellous, I welcome their reasoned input. If someone's views are merely apocrypha, then I'll look elsewhere.

Technology has moved on, and innovation, quality and, above all, astounding music reproduction are not the preserve of one manufacturer or ethos - I would suggest that anybody who wants to promote or denigrate a manufacturer, a particular product or design choice would be best served by actually listening to those offerings, and considering whether 'what they read somewhere' is actually true or not.

 

[AEJim]

I think on a more general point here, many people seem to be fans of certain brands and recommend them endlessly in many threads, just seems that fans of some brands/products get criticised while others are praised for their opinions.

Many of those doing the criticising are as guilty of the same behaviour with their own favourite products but seem oblivious to the fact.

This is a valid point which I feel deserves a response.

I do not have any objection to people recommending any - ANY - brand, provided I can believe that it is an informed response to a poster's question. The difficulty I have is when people recommend a brand or, especially, deride other brands, when they have no experience of the products they are recommending or deriding, they just 'read something somewhere'.

For example, I find it absurd that one poster on here can describe the strengths and weaknesses of the AVI ADM40 when he hasn't even heard them in isolation, let alone in comparison to other systems. I would also question some people's assertions about products being the be-all-an-end-all in music reproduction, when the last thing they had to compare them with was a pair of wardrobes with 15" drivers. If you hear one product and have compared it to others and find it vastly better in terms of value, aesthetics, performance or functionality, then marvellous, I welcome their reasoned input. If someone's views are merely apocrypha, then I'll look elsewhere.

Technology has moved on, and innovation, quality and, above all, astounding music reproduction are not the preserve of one manufacturer or ethos - I would suggest that anybody who wants to promote or denigrate a manufacturer, a particular product or design choice would be best served by actually listening to those offerings, and considering whether 'what they read somewhere' is actually true or not.

Good post John, totally agree. While this industry is one of the most subjective around in many ways I do find it odd to often read comments like "I haven't heard these but they're really good!" in many threads. 🙂

 

[Overdose]

I think on a more general point here, many people seem to be fans of certain brands and recommend them endlessly in many threads, just seems that fans of some brands/products get criticised while others are praised for their opinions.

Many of those doing the criticising are as guilty of the same behaviour with their own favourite products but seem oblivious to the fact.

This is a valid point which I feel deserves a response.

I do not have any objection to people recommending any - ANY - brand, provided I can believe that it is an informed response to a poster's question. The difficulty I have is when people recommend a brand or, especially, deride other brands, when they have no experience of the products they are recommending or deriding, they just 'read something somewhere'.

For example, I find it absurd that one poster on here can describe the strengths and weaknesses of the AVI ADM40 when he hasn't even heard them in isolation, let alone in comparison to other systems. I would also question some people's assertions about products being the be-all-an-end-all in music reproduction, when the last thing they had to compare them with was a pair of wardrobes with 15" drivers. If you hear one product and have compared it to others and find it vastly better in terms of value, aesthetics, performance or functionality, then marvellous, I welcome their reasoned input. If someone's views are merely apocrypha, then I'll look elsewhere.

Technology has moved on, and innovation, quality and, above all, astounding music reproduction are not the preserve of one manufacturer or ethos - I would suggest that anybody who wants to promote or denigrate a manufacturer, a particular product or design choice would be best served by actually listening to those offerings, and considering whether 'what they read somewhere' is actually true or not.

Well put, but unfortunately on an open forum such as this, all of which you describe happens in abundance. It's human nature and almost impossible to prevent.

 

[andyjm]

Brands struggle to isolate the amplifier from external vibrations.

doesn't make any difference. If you don't believe me, whap a cd on, and go and wobble your amp. I bet the sound doesn't change at all.

If it does change, then a quick recording or said sound change would help clear the matter up and I'll ****** off and eat my hat 😀

edit - just to say the edited work wasn't that offensive, so please don't think I was being agressive.

Of topic again, but many components are microphonic to some degree. It can be designed around (as is clear from the fact most studio monitoring speakers these days are active with integral amps), but the effect is real and does need consideration.

Wobbling the amp wont do it, but a sharp tap on a microphonic component in a high gain part of the amp will certainly be detectable. Valves are notorious for this, but even a humble resistor can be microphonic.

 

[plastic penguin]

I think on a more general point here, many people seem to be fans of certain brands and recommend them endlessly in many threads, just seems that fans of some brands/products get criticised while others are praised for their opinions.

Many of those doing the criticising are as guilty of the same behaviour with their own favourite products but seem oblivious to the fact.

This is a valid point which I feel deserves a response.

I do not have any objection to people recommending any - ANY - brand, provided I can believe that it is an informed response to a poster's question. The difficulty I have is when people recommend a brand or, especially, deride other brands, when they have no experience of the products they are recommending or deriding, they just 'read something somewhere'.

For example, I find it absurd that one poster on here can describe the strengths and weaknesses of the AVI ADM40 when he hasn't even heard them in isolation, let alone in comparison to other systems. I would also question some people's assertions about products being the be-all-an-end-all in music reproduction, when the last thing they had to compare them with was a pair of wardrobes with 15" drivers. If you hear one product and have compared it to others and find it vastly better in terms of value, aesthetics, performance or functionality, then marvellous, I welcome their reasoned input. If someone's views are merely apocrypha, then I'll look elsewhere.

Technology has moved on, and innovation, quality and, above all, astounding music reproduction are not the preserve of one manufacturer or ethos - I would suggest that anybody who wants to promote or denigrate a manufacturer, a particular product or design choice would be best served by actually listening to those offerings, and considering whether 'what they read somewhere' is actually true or not.

Well put, but unfortunately on an open forum such as this, all of which you describe happens in abundance. It's human nature and almost impossible to prevent.

You're right - it is human nature. By the same token, if these baseless comments are ignored perhaps they (the posters in question) would (eventaully) get the message, and react on personal experience and not hearsay.

 

[cheeseboy]

Of topic again, but many components are microphonic to some degree. It can be designed around (as is clear from the fact most studio monitoring speakers these days are active with integral amps), but the effect is real and does need consideration.

Wobbling the amp wont do it, but a sharp tap on a microphonic component in a high gain part of the amp will certainly be detectable. Valves are notorious for this, but even a humble resistor can be microphonic.

very quickly so as not to derail too much (apologies all) - yes I concur, especially on valve amps (being a guitarist I've experienced this very thing many many times on my guitar amp at gigs with many a drunken *** falling in to it!) However, all the isolation platforms, squash balls etc won't help if somebody shraply taps the amp, therefore, the whole isolation thing is a bit of a red herring imho.

 

[steve_1979]

I think on a more general point here, many people seem to be fans of certain brands and recommend them endlessly in many threads, just seems that fans of some brands/products get criticised while others are praised for their opinions.

Many of those doing the criticising are as guilty of the same behaviour with their own favourite products but seem oblivious to the fact.

This is a valid point which I feel deserves a response.

I do not have any objection to people recommending any - ANY - brand, provided I can believe that it is an informed response to a poster's question. The difficulty I have is when people recommend a brand or, especially, deride other brands, when they have no experience of the products they are recommending or deriding, they just 'read something somewhere'.

For example, I find it absurd that one poster on here can describe the strengths and weaknesses of the AVI ADM40 when he hasn't even heard them in isolation, let alone in comparison to other systems. I would also question some people's assertions about products being the be-all-an-end-all in music reproduction, when the last thing they had to compare them with was a pair of wardrobes with 15" drivers. If you hear one product and have compared it to others and find it vastly better in terms of value, aesthetics, performance or functionality, then marvellous, I welcome their reasoned input. If someone's views are merely apocrypha, then I'll look elsewhere.

Technology has moved on, and innovation, quality and, above all, astounding music reproduction are not the preserve of one manufacturer or ethos - I would suggest that anybody who wants to promote or denigrate a manufacturer, a particular product or design choice would be best served by actually listening to those offerings, and considering whether 'what they read somewhere' is actually true or not.

Well put, but unfortunately on an open forum such as this, all of which you describe happens in abundance. It's human nature and almost impossible to prevent.

You're right - it is human nature. By the same token, if these baseless comments are ignored perhaps they (the posters in question) would (eventaully) get the message, and react on personal experience and not hearsay.

I've mentioned AVI's newer models (which I haven't heard) based on my very favourible experience with their previous model (which I have heard). I did state this quite clearly at the time.

Also for a bit of balance I think that Genelec make the best speakers that I've heard and I regularly recommend speakers from other manufacturers such as Quested, Adam, Acoustic Energy, Yamaha, Behringer and Event Opals. I also recommend the odd passive speaker from time to time too.

And FWIW I think that the whole 'us and them' thing is all very silly. Why can't people chill out a bit and just say things in a more friendly manner?

 

[AEJim]

And FWIW I think that the whole 'us and them' thing is all very silly. Why can't people chill out a bit and just say things in a more friendly manner?

Very true Steve! Something about Hi-Fi Forums and the nature of the product seems to bring out the bad in people at times! Not as bad as camera forums but not as nice as golf ones 😀

 

[cheeseboy]

And FWIW I think that the whole 'us and them' thing is all very silly. Why can't people chill out a bit and just say things in a more friendly manner?

Very true Steve! Something about Hi-Fi Forums and the nature of the product seems to bring out the bad in people at times! Not as bad as camera forums but not as nice as golf ones 😀

It's pretty much anything nowadays. There's a really interesting article on why people do this here http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/05/19/fanboyism-and-brand-loyalty/

 

[John Duncan]

"So, the next time you reach for the mouse and get ready to launch an angry litany of reasons why your favorite – thing – is better than the other person’s, hesitate.

Realize you have your irrational reasons, and so do they, and nothing will be gained by your proselytizing."

Well, that's this forum's raison d'être gone down the toilet then...

 

[matt49]

It's pretty much anything nowadays. There's a really interesting article on why people do this here http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/05/19/fanboyism-and-brand-loyalty/

Cheeseboy,

Thanks for the link.

The last two sentences should be repeated on this forum every few minutes until they sink in:

"So, the next time you reach for the mouse and get ready to launch an angry litany of reasons why your favorite – thing – is better than the other person’s, hesitate.

Realize you have your irrational reasons, and so do they, and nothing will be gained by your proselytizing."

 

[The_Lhc]

And FWIW I think that the whole 'us and them' thing is all very silly. Why can't people chill out a bit and just say things in a more friendly manner?

Very true Steve! Something about Hi-Fi Forums and the nature of the product seems to bring out the bad in people at times! Not as bad as camera forums but not as nice as golf ones 😀

You're joking aren't you? The worst forum I was ever a member of was a golf forum, cliquey, rude, ignorant and totally unable to engage in reasoned argument, I've never been back and I like to talk golf more than I do hi-fi (that was a magazine's forum as well btw, they provided no moderation at all).

 

[plastic penguin]

I think on a more general point here, many people seem to be fans of certain brands and recommend them endlessly in many threads, just seems that fans of some brands/products get criticised while others are praised for their opinions.

Many of those doing the criticising are as guilty of the same behaviour with their own favourite products but seem oblivious to the fact.

This is a valid point which I feel deserves a response.

I do not have any objection to people recommending any - ANY - brand, provided I can believe that it is an informed response to a poster's question. The difficulty I have is when people recommend a brand or, especially, deride other brands, when they have no experience of the products they are recommending or deriding, they just 'read something somewhere'.

For example, I find it absurd that one poster on here can describe the strengths and weaknesses of the AVI ADM40 when he hasn't even heard them in isolation, let alone in comparison to other systems. I would also question some people's assertions about products being the be-all-an-end-all in music reproduction, when the last thing they had to compare them with was a pair of wardrobes with 15" drivers. If you hear one product and have compared it to others and find it vastly better in terms of value, aesthetics, performance or functionality, then marvellous, I welcome their reasoned input. If someone's views are merely apocrypha, then I'll look elsewhere.

Technology has moved on, and innovation, quality and, above all, astounding music reproduction are not the preserve of one manufacturer or ethos - I would suggest that anybody who wants to promote or denigrate a manufacturer, a particular product or design choice would be best served by actually listening to those offerings, and considering whether 'what they read somewhere' is actually true or not.

Well put, but unfortunately on an open forum such as this, all of which you describe happens in abundance. It's human nature and almost impossible to prevent.

You're right - it is human nature. By the same token, if these baseless comments are ignored perhaps they (the posters in question) would (eventaully) get the message, and react on personal experience and not hearsay.

I've mentioned AVI's newer models (which I haven't heard) based on my very favourible experience with their previous model (which I have heard). I did state this quite clearly at the time.

Also for a bit of balance I think that Genelec make the best speakers that I've heard and I regularly recommend speakers from other manufacturers such as Quested, Adam, Acoustic Energy, Yamaha, Behringer and Event Opals. I also recommend the odd passive speaker from time to time too.

And FWIW I think that the whole 'us and them' thing is all very silly. Why can't people chill out a bit and just say things in a more friendly manner?

For the record, Steve, my previous comments wasn't aimed at you. I agree about 'them and us' schoolboy oneupmanship. We all preach from the same book, perhaps on different pages, but that's acceptable. The tone of some leaves a lot to be desired and totally uncalled for.

Maybe that's how forums are, don't really know...

 

[The_Lhc]

Why can't people chill out a bit and just say things in a more friendly manner?

I think you'll find that most threads start out that way but nobody ******* listens, so people start to think they have to put their argument in a somewhat more forceful manner in order to be heard.

Me, I just assume nobody's listening and skip straight to the last bit...

 

[AEJim]

You're joking aren't you? The worst forum I was ever a member of was a golf forum, cliquey, rude, ignorant and totally unable to engage in reasoned argument, I've never been back and I like to talk golf more than I do hi-fi (that was a magazine's forum as well btw, they provided no moderation at all).

Haha, yeah I guess it depends which ones you look at! GolfWRX seems ok (aside from everyone driving 300 yards+ with a 120mph swing speed etc etc) but the DPReview Camera forums are some of the most aggressive I've seen at times, really nasty stuff.

To be honest I'm glad when I'm really busy much of the time as it leaves me with less chance to get bored and start browsing the internet and feeling the need to comment on things... 😉