I thought I had my new home cinema components sorted. That is however until I read this months excellent What HiFi "one make Blu-ray system" group test. Firstly, I had intended to buy the Panasonic 55 together with The Yamaha 863 and the B&W 685 Theatre system. Then, I read the reviews and liked the look of the Pioneer 51FD (more so since the WhatHiFi advice desk at this years Bristol Show told me that Panasonic no longer makes the 55). Then, reading the group test article the What HiFi team say "a high end amp might not be necessary". Now, if I empty my penny jar and do a couple of days overtime I could stretch to the 2500BT. I have already budgeted for speaker stands, VDH flats and Chord Silver screen cabling. Has anyone had similar thoughts or should I stick with the 51?
Denon 2500BT vs Pioneer 51FD
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jase fox
Well-known member
jazzead:I thought I had my new home cinema components sorted. That is however until I read this months excellent What HiFi "one make Blu-ray system" group test. Firstly, I had intended to buy the Panasonic 55 together with The Yamaha 863 and the B&W 685 Theatre system. Then, I read the reviews and liked the look of the Pioneer 51FD (more so since the WhatHiFi advice desk at this years Bristol Show told me that Panasonic no longer makes the 55). Then, reading the group test article the What HiFi team say "a high end amp might not be necessary". Now, if I empty my penny jar and do a couple of days overtime I could stretch to the 2500BT. I have already budgeted for speaker stands, VDH flats and Chord Silver screen cabling. Has anyone had similar thoughts or should I stick with the 51?
I think alot of folk on here know my views on this one & thats id go with the Denon 2500bt especially if you can stretch to it, i think its the best player beteen the £600 to £800 barrier, i personally think for the price & performance of the Denon you cant go wrong & i just cant see beyond it !
Ive seen the pioneer 51FD up & running & even though its a fine player its still not a Denon.
Get it, you wont regret it !!!
I think alot of folk on here know my views on this one & thats id go with the Denon 2500bt especially if you can stretch to it, i think its the best player beteen the £600 to £800 barrier, i personally think for the price & performance of the Denon you cant go wrong & i just cant see beyond it !
Ive seen the pioneer 51FD up & running & even though its a fine player its still not a Denon.
Get it, you wont regret it !!!
I've just bought the Denon 2500 and relegated my Sony BDP-S350 to the bedroom player.
I have to say that I'm not overly impressed with the leap in performance from the Sony, I'd say it's more of a skip and not worth the extra £440. Can't say how I think the Pioneer does because I haven't seen it.
The Denon over the Sony has slightly better colour and produces a much more 3D image (biggest improvement). However, I prefer the more attacking sound from the Sony over the controlled, never flustered, perhaps dull sounding Denon. The Denon has slightly longer load times and has been a bit more choosy over some discs. I was expecting big differences in screen noise from what I've read, although you only notice this when your up close on either player, I can't say I could see any differences in background screen noise.
I guess my point is, the Sony produces a great picture for £160. You certainly won't get double it's qulaity by spending 2, 3 or 4 times it's value. Only the individual can judge whether the increase in performance is worth the extra dosh. In my opinion, the extra £440 doesn't justify the small picture improvement. I'm hoping that my investment in the Denon will seem more justified after burning in for a period.
I have to say that I'm not overly impressed with the leap in performance from the Sony, I'd say it's more of a skip and not worth the extra £440. Can't say how I think the Pioneer does because I haven't seen it.
The Denon over the Sony has slightly better colour and produces a much more 3D image (biggest improvement). However, I prefer the more attacking sound from the Sony over the controlled, never flustered, perhaps dull sounding Denon. The Denon has slightly longer load times and has been a bit more choosy over some discs. I was expecting big differences in screen noise from what I've read, although you only notice this when your up close on either player, I can't say I could see any differences in background screen noise.
I guess my point is, the Sony produces a great picture for £160. You certainly won't get double it's qulaity by spending 2, 3 or 4 times it's value. Only the individual can judge whether the increase in performance is worth the extra dosh. In my opinion, the extra £440 doesn't justify the small picture improvement. I'm hoping that my investment in the Denon will seem more justified after burning in for a period.
jase fox
Well-known member
pete321:
I've just bought the Denon 2500 and relegated my Sony BDP-S350 to the bedroom player.
I have to say that I'm not overly impressed with the leap in performance from the Sony, I'd say it's more of a skip and not worth the extra £440. Can't say how I think the Pioneer does because I haven't seen it.
The Denon over the Sony has slightly better colour and produces a much more 3D image (biggest improvement). However, I prefer the more attacking sound from the Sony over the controlled, never flustered, perhaps dull sounding Denon. The Denon has slightly longer load times and has been a bit more choosy over some discs. I was expecting big differences in screen noise from what I've read, although you only notice this when your up close on either player, I can't say I could see any differences in background screen noise.
I guess my point is, the Sony produces a great picture for £160. You certainly won't get double it's qulaity by spending 2, 3 or 4 times it's value. Only the individual can judge whether the increase in performance is worth the extra dosh. In my opinion, the extra £440 doesn't justify the small picture improvement. I'm hoping that my investment in the Denon will seem more justified after burning in for a period.
Well if there was ever a true definition of "each to there own" this is it, as to say the Denons sound is dull sounding etc are we talking about the same Denon here?? Well im just stunned at this review you give it, what amp you using?
Well it cant be that bad as you have relagated your Sony to your bedroom & if i was as negative towards it as you obviously are i would of kept the Sony & sent the Denon back, simple as.
All i can say is that i wish i had the same opinion as you on the Denon as it would of saved me a few quid. But as ive just said each to there own !!! & on this one your on your own.
Ive just seen what amp youve got & plasma & with these i cant think for the life of me why & how your coming up with such negative view on the Denon?? As i think its the dogs ******** !! mmmmmm the mind boggles.
I've just bought the Denon 2500 and relegated my Sony BDP-S350 to the bedroom player.
I have to say that I'm not overly impressed with the leap in performance from the Sony, I'd say it's more of a skip and not worth the extra £440. Can't say how I think the Pioneer does because I haven't seen it.
The Denon over the Sony has slightly better colour and produces a much more 3D image (biggest improvement). However, I prefer the more attacking sound from the Sony over the controlled, never flustered, perhaps dull sounding Denon. The Denon has slightly longer load times and has been a bit more choosy over some discs. I was expecting big differences in screen noise from what I've read, although you only notice this when your up close on either player, I can't say I could see any differences in background screen noise.
I guess my point is, the Sony produces a great picture for £160. You certainly won't get double it's qulaity by spending 2, 3 or 4 times it's value. Only the individual can judge whether the increase in performance is worth the extra dosh. In my opinion, the extra £440 doesn't justify the small picture improvement. I'm hoping that my investment in the Denon will seem more justified after burning in for a period.
Well if there was ever a true definition of "each to there own" this is it, as to say the Denons sound is dull sounding etc are we talking about the same Denon here?? Well im just stunned at this review you give it, what amp you using?
Well it cant be that bad as you have relagated your Sony to your bedroom & if i was as negative towards it as you obviously are i would of kept the Sony & sent the Denon back, simple as.
All i can say is that i wish i had the same opinion as you on the Denon as it would of saved me a few quid. But as ive just said each to there own !!! & on this one your on your own.
Ive just seen what amp youve got & plasma & with these i cant think for the life of me why & how your coming up with such negative view on the Denon?? As i think its the dogs ******** !! mmmmmm the mind boggles.
I agree overall it's better than the Sony, but not £440 better, I really can't see a massive improvement apart from 3 dimensionality. The Sony is £160, given the improvement in the Denon, I'd say it was worth £300, not £600.
As for sound, well I knew what I was going to get. It's not a bad sound, but I'm a Cyrus man of old and prefer a bit more spine tingling. Denon have always had a more laid back sound that makes every recording/soundtrack sound good. But personally I'd rather have a few soundtracks/recordings that sound a bit too bright or course, but then revel in the good recordings which sparkle. In that respect, the Pioneer would have probably been the best option.
I admit I seem to be in the minority, everyone raves about the Denon. My kit is far from the best, but it's not the worst either (see below). I've just had my 41st birthday, perhaps my eyesight and hearing have gone now!
Sorry if I upset you Mr Fox, I'm glad your pleased with your Denon, just wish I thought I'd got value for money.
As for sound, well I knew what I was going to get. It's not a bad sound, but I'm a Cyrus man of old and prefer a bit more spine tingling. Denon have always had a more laid back sound that makes every recording/soundtrack sound good. But personally I'd rather have a few soundtracks/recordings that sound a bit too bright or course, but then revel in the good recordings which sparkle. In that respect, the Pioneer would have probably been the best option.
I admit I seem to be in the minority, everyone raves about the Denon. My kit is far from the best, but it's not the worst either (see below). I've just had my 41st birthday, perhaps my eyesight and hearing have gone now!
Sorry if I upset you Mr Fox, I'm glad your pleased with your Denon, just wish I thought I'd got value for money.
Pete321, I feel your speakers - although superb in their price class - are slightly letting your superb receiver and player down. You're not going to hear what the Denon - or indeed the mighty Onkyo - are truly capable of. Sorry to suggest another pricey upgrade!
jazzead:I thought I had my new home cinema components sorted. That is however until I read this months excellent What HiFi "one make Blu-ray system" group test. Firstly, I had intended to buy the Panasonic 55 together with The Yamaha 863 and the B&W 685 Theatre system. Then, I read the reviews and liked the look of the Pioneer 51FD (more so since the WhatHiFi advice desk at this years Bristol Show told me that Panasonic no longer makes the 55). Then, reading the group test article the What HiFi team say "a high end amp might not be necessary". Now, if I empty my penny jar and do a couple of days overtime I could stretch to the 2500BT. I have already budgeted for speaker stands, VDH flats and Chord Silver screen cabling. Has anyone had similar thoughts or should I stick with the 51?
What TV or projector are you planning to use your Blu-ray with? The Denon deserves a 50in+ screen to be seen at its best. Your amp and speaker choice would work with the Denon, though you'd not hear the very best it has to offer. The Pioneer is a more fitting match.
What TV or projector are you planning to use your Blu-ray with? The Denon deserves a 50in+ screen to be seen at its best. Your amp and speaker choice would work with the Denon, though you'd not hear the very best it has to offer. The Pioneer is a more fitting match.
Yes, I guess the speakers are the weakest link, what would you suggest, I'd want floorstanders for the front, but there's no way I'd get permission for anything larger than the KEF's for rears. At the risk of sounding sexist, unfortunately not many women aspire to be the editor of a popular HiFi mag!
Even with better speakers, Denon don't have a history of the most dynamic sound by comparison with say Cyrus, or further down the food chain, Pioneer, What HiFi's reviews over the years confirm this.
Even with better speakers, Denon don't have a history of the most dynamic sound by comparison with say Cyrus, or further down the food chain, Pioneer, What HiFi's reviews over the years confirm this.
Sim2 were using it to show of their projector at the show and I would say it's the best I've seen on a big screen.
Didn't see you at the show on Sunday Clare, was gonna say hi.
Didn't see you at the show on Sunday Clare, was gonna say hi.
Did they show it with the Sony BDP-S350 as well? Probably not, I'm sure that Denon would have been better, but my point is, is it value for money better, I think not at the current price point (£600 vs £160).
jase fox
Well-known member
pete321:
I agree overall it's better than the Sony, but not £440 better, I really can't see a massive improvement apart from 3 dimensionality. The Sony is £160, given the improvement in the Denon, I'd say it was worth £300, not £600.
As for sound, well I knew what I was going to get. It's not a bad sound, but I'm a Cyrus man of old and prefer a bit more spine tingling. Denon have always had a more laid back sound that makes every recording/soundtrack sound good. But personally I'd rather have a few soundtracks/recordings that sound a bit too bright or course, but then revel in the good recordings which sparkle. In that respect, the Pioneer would have probably been the best option.
I admit I seem to be in the minority, everyone raves about the Denon. My kit is far from the best, but it's not the worst either (see below). I've just had my 41st birthday, perhaps my eyesight and hearing have gone now!
Sorry if I upset you Mr Fox, I'm glad your pleased with your Denon, just wish I thought I'd got value for money.
>>>> wipes eyes & puts tissues away ........ No you havnt upset me, ha Im just surprised at your results is all pete, mind you ive just recently had my 39th birthday & i still have 20/20 vision here.
Like clare has said maybe your speakers are letting you down (or your eyes)theres certainly a weak link somewhere, but remember that the Denon doesnt do any onboard decoding its all down to your amp & not the player.
And yes im incredibly happy with it Pete.
I agree overall it's better than the Sony, but not £440 better, I really can't see a massive improvement apart from 3 dimensionality. The Sony is £160, given the improvement in the Denon, I'd say it was worth £300, not £600.
As for sound, well I knew what I was going to get. It's not a bad sound, but I'm a Cyrus man of old and prefer a bit more spine tingling. Denon have always had a more laid back sound that makes every recording/soundtrack sound good. But personally I'd rather have a few soundtracks/recordings that sound a bit too bright or course, but then revel in the good recordings which sparkle. In that respect, the Pioneer would have probably been the best option.
I admit I seem to be in the minority, everyone raves about the Denon. My kit is far from the best, but it's not the worst either (see below). I've just had my 41st birthday, perhaps my eyesight and hearing have gone now!
Sorry if I upset you Mr Fox, I'm glad your pleased with your Denon, just wish I thought I'd got value for money.
>>>> wipes eyes & puts tissues away ........ No you havnt upset me, ha Im just surprised at your results is all pete, mind you ive just recently had my 39th birthday & i still have 20/20 vision here.
Like clare has said maybe your speakers are letting you down (or your eyes)theres certainly a weak link somewhere, but remember that the Denon doesnt do any onboard decoding its all down to your amp & not the player.
And yes im incredibly happy with it Pete.
pete321:
Yes, I guess the speakers are the weakest link, what would you suggest, I'd want floorstanders for the front, but there's no way I'd get permission for anything larger than the KEF's for rears. At the risk of sounding sexist, unfortunately not many women aspire to be the editor of a popular HiFi mag!
Even with better speakers, Denon don't have a history of the most dynamic sound by comparison with say Cyrus, or further down the food chain, Pioneer.
Well if you're after lively, why not step up the Monitor Audio range and invest in some RS6s (and matching RS LCR centre)? They'd bring out more of the Onkyo's attack and Denon's abilities. And they are (I believe) available in the same finishes as your existing speakers, if that meets spousal approval!
And don't fret about the smaller rears - due to living in a flat, I don't have space for anything more than compact wall-mounted rears in my home set-up (massive floorstanding fronts and centre, though!)
Yes, I guess the speakers are the weakest link, what would you suggest, I'd want floorstanders for the front, but there's no way I'd get permission for anything larger than the KEF's for rears. At the risk of sounding sexist, unfortunately not many women aspire to be the editor of a popular HiFi mag!
Even with better speakers, Denon don't have a history of the most dynamic sound by comparison with say Cyrus, or further down the food chain, Pioneer.
Well if you're after lively, why not step up the Monitor Audio range and invest in some RS6s (and matching RS LCR centre)? They'd bring out more of the Onkyo's attack and Denon's abilities. And they are (I believe) available in the same finishes as your existing speakers, if that meets spousal approval!
And don't fret about the smaller rears - due to living in a flat, I don't have space for anything more than compact wall-mounted rears in my home set-up (massive floorstanding fronts and centre, though!)
[/quotebut remember that the Denon doesnt do any onboard decoding its all down to your amp & not the player.quote]
As it was with the Sony set to output bitstream, but it still sounds different.
As it was with the Sony set to output bitstream, but it still sounds different.
Thanks for your advice Clare, I'll pass on your recommendations for approval, and as she always says, women are always right!
jase fox
Well-known member
pete321:
[/quotebut remember that the Denon doesnt do any onboard decoding its all down to your amp & not the player.quote]
As it was with the Sony set to output bitstream, but it still sounds different.
Well in that case my work here is done , i pack my briefcase, turn out the lights & move on from this subject ! As this is the equivelant of trying to sell ice to eskimos scenario.
Anyway "eye of the beholder" is what i say....
[/quotebut remember that the Denon doesnt do any onboard decoding its all down to your amp & not the player.quote]
As it was with the Sony set to output bitstream, but it still sounds different.
Well in that case my work here is done , i pack my briefcase, turn out the lights & move on from this subject ! As this is the equivelant of trying to sell ice to eskimos scenario.
Anyway "eye of the beholder" is what i say....
pete321:Did they show it with the Sony BDP-S350 as well? Probably not, I'm sure that Denon would have been better, but my point is, is it value for money better, I think not at the current price point (£600 vs £160).
No they have links with Denon, Paradigm and SMX.
Not sure about value for money it impressed me and my system doesn't come close, although the PJ they used plus optical cable for the video has a lot to do with it.
No they have links with Denon, Paradigm and SMX.
Not sure about value for money it impressed me and my system doesn't come close, although the PJ they used plus optical cable for the video has a lot to do with it.
Sliced Bread
Well-known member
Clare Newsome:...due to living in a ***flat***, I don't have space for anything more than compact wall-mounted rears in my home set-up (***massive*** floorstanding fronts and centre, though!)
Your neighbours must love you
Your neighbours must love you
Fortunately we only have upstairs neighbours to worry about, and they're flight crew who are away a lot (including most weekends)
Sliced Bread
Well-known member
John, Clare, Pete, Jase and Del,
Thank you all for your input...didn't expect a fight though!!! This is all so confusing. So, my path to a quality £2500 system gets even more compliacted. I can only afford to do this once and need to get it right. Lets for now say that I ditch the idea of the F51 but consider the LX71 instead? Or does the Denon still cut it. Currently using a PS3 through a Sony Bravia KDL-40X2000 with sound passing through a Rotel RA931-MK2 amp and B&W 601 S2 stereo speakers with QED SA Bi-wire cables and Pure AV HDMI. I am also looking for something with a bit of musical flair too. Taste in music is Jazz, Jazz Funk, Soul ( Will Downing, Luther Vandross etc) . Bassy stuff!
Thanks again
Thank you all for your input...didn't expect a fight though!!! This is all so confusing. So, my path to a quality £2500 system gets even more compliacted. I can only afford to do this once and need to get it right. Lets for now say that I ditch the idea of the F51 but consider the LX71 instead? Or does the Denon still cut it. Currently using a PS3 through a Sony Bravia KDL-40X2000 with sound passing through a Rotel RA931-MK2 amp and B&W 601 S2 stereo speakers with QED SA Bi-wire cables and Pure AV HDMI. I am also looking for something with a bit of musical flair too. Taste in music is Jazz, Jazz Funk, Soul ( Will Downing, Luther Vandross etc) . Bassy stuff!
Thanks again
jase fox
Well-known member
jazzead:
John, Clare, Pete, Jase and Del,
Thank you all for your input...didn't expect a fight though!!! This is all so confusing. So, my path to a quality £2500 system gets even more compliacted. I can only afford to do this once and need to get it right. Lets for now say that I ditch the idea of the F51 but consider the LX71 instead? Or does the Denon still cut it. Currently using a PS3 through a Sony Bravia KDL-40X2000 with sound passing through a Rotel RA931-MK2 amp and B&W 601 S2 stereo speakers with QED SA Bi-wire cables and Pure AV HDMI. I am also looking for something with a bit of musical flair too. Taste in music is Jazz, Jazz Funk, Soul ( Will Downing, Luther Vandross etc) . Bassy stuff!
Thanks again
Lx71 is very good Jazzead as its up there with the big boys but id still favour the Denon all day long !!
John, Clare, Pete, Jase and Del,
Thank you all for your input...didn't expect a fight though!!! This is all so confusing. So, my path to a quality £2500 system gets even more compliacted. I can only afford to do this once and need to get it right. Lets for now say that I ditch the idea of the F51 but consider the LX71 instead? Or does the Denon still cut it. Currently using a PS3 through a Sony Bravia KDL-40X2000 with sound passing through a Rotel RA931-MK2 amp and B&W 601 S2 stereo speakers with QED SA Bi-wire cables and Pure AV HDMI. I am also looking for something with a bit of musical flair too. Taste in music is Jazz, Jazz Funk, Soul ( Will Downing, Luther Vandross etc) . Bassy stuff!
Thanks again
Lx71 is very good Jazzead as its up there with the big boys but id still favour the Denon all day long !!
Sorry if I've confused you, to put it in perspective, you don't hear too many complaints about the Denon, I seem to be in the minority. Having said that, I think the problem is not that the Denon is a bad player, but to mind, eyes and ears the Sony BDP-S350 gives you such a lot of that performance for significantly less cash.
There are noticeable improvements in the picture at normal viewing distances, the biggest in my opinion being the 3 dimensionality of the Denon picture over the Sony.
I had originally the same problem as you. I was planning on getting the Pioneer 51, but when the price of the Denon came down to £600, I found the extra and went for that. If I could choose again, I'd probably go for the Pioneer which can be had now for £300. I just don't think the price premium on the Denon justifies the improvements you get over a good budget player like the Sony. I guess you'll have to do what I didn't and demo the 2, and the Sony if you can, just to see what £160 gets you. That way you can judge for yourself whether the improvements within the 3 price ranges justify the price tags of the respective machines.
There are noticeable improvements in the picture at normal viewing distances, the biggest in my opinion being the 3 dimensionality of the Denon picture over the Sony.
I had originally the same problem as you. I was planning on getting the Pioneer 51, but when the price of the Denon came down to £600, I found the extra and went for that. If I could choose again, I'd probably go for the Pioneer which can be had now for £300. I just don't think the price premium on the Denon justifies the improvements you get over a good budget player like the Sony. I guess you'll have to do what I didn't and demo the 2, and the Sony if you can, just to see what £160 gets you. That way you can judge for yourself whether the improvements within the 3 price ranges justify the price tags of the respective machines.
pete321
Thanks for the reply. I will of course try to demo them all Denon and Pioneer but it's difficult trying to find a dealer that holds all of my potential purchases in stock. Also, whilst I am not adverse to buying the odd thing on the internet, I am happy to pay a bit more for a better aftersales service. Added to that I might get a couple of meters of speaker cables "thrown in". Whilst the Denon is obviously a great player what are your thoughts about mating it with the Yamaha 863?
cheers.
Thanks for the reply. I will of course try to demo them all Denon and Pioneer but it's difficult trying to find a dealer that holds all of my potential purchases in stock. Also, whilst I am not adverse to buying the odd thing on the internet, I am happy to pay a bit more for a better aftersales service. Added to that I might get a couple of meters of speaker cables "thrown in". Whilst the Denon is obviously a great player what are your thoughts about mating it with the Yamaha 863?
cheers.
I'm afraid I can't comment on that never having heard the Yamaha amp. I guess it depends on how you like your music to sound and whether you'd be using the Denon to play CD's as well.
For my tastes, I prefer a dynamic sound which gets every last piece of detail from a song (sometimes at the risk of showing up bad recordings as harsh), in that respect the Denon 2500BT wouldn't be the obvious choice unless you partnered it with an insightful amp and speakers. I'm not sure on on what side of neutral Yamaha amps lean, my choice would be a Pioneer amp if I was using it with the Denon player.
For my tastes, I prefer a dynamic sound which gets every last piece of detail from a song (sometimes at the risk of showing up bad recordings as harsh), in that respect the Denon 2500BT wouldn't be the obvious choice unless you partnered it with an insightful amp and speakers. I'm not sure on on what side of neutral Yamaha amps lean, my choice would be a Pioneer amp if I was using it with the Denon player.
All of today's players will be to a high standard. Personally I would go for the same brand as the tv I'm using to cut down on remotes, give a more together look and add some convenient 'link' features.
I think if you have a high quality, large enough display and system it may be justified to spend a little bit more on the player for the marginal improvements you'll get. Otherwise a budget player will suffice perfectly.
One thing I would say is that if you are looking at spending a decent amount on one also audition NAD's BR player. I was very impressed at the Bristol show and they do some tasty AV Receivers too but you may have trouble finding a matching tv.
I think if you have a high quality, large enough display and system it may be justified to spend a little bit more on the player for the marginal improvements you'll get. Otherwise a budget player will suffice perfectly.
One thing I would say is that if you are looking at spending a decent amount on one also audition NAD's BR player. I was very impressed at the Bristol show and they do some tasty AV Receivers too but you may have trouble finding a matching tv.
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