Dali active vs passive

[thewinelake.]

Had an interesting demo today of Dali 5 AX (being fed by a Creek CD transport). Sounded OK, I suppose. Then the dealer changed over to the equivalent passive speakers - Dali Zensor 5, being driven by a Rotel RA11 - a fairly modest £500 amp. The amp-driven system was a revelation - MUCH better in terms of clarity and musicality. Got to say that I was surprised that Dali should put such a poor DAC/amp into the AX setup. Is this a common finding? BTW - the pricing isn't wildly different - £889 for Amp+DZ5 vs £799 for 5AX

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Had an interesting demo today of Dali 5 AX (being fed by a Creek CD player). Sounded OK, I suppose. Then the dealer changed over to the equivalent passive speakers - Dali Zensor 5, being driven by a Rotel RA11 - a fairly modest £500 amp. The amp-driven system was a revelation - MUCH better in terms of clarity and musicality. Got to say that I was surprised that Dali should put such a poor DAC/amp into the AX setup. Is this a common finding?

hi I do not know much about the Dali actives but the passive ones are normally good but the Dali Zensor range has kind of been replaced with the new opticon range I used to own the Zensor 1 , 3s and then went to the opticon 6s and then went to the opticon 8s which are the flagship of the opticon range so I kind of like Dali speakers . you will be able to pick up the Zensor 5s cheap on ex demo set or eBay I found any amp from marantz works well with Dali speakers a specially the marantz pm8005 which you could pick up new for about £600 which is a monster of an amp for the money

 

[davedotco]

The Dali 5ax is a regular pair of passive speakers with a cheap amp and dac built in.

They are really not very good, don't be fooled, they are not active and have none of the benefits of proper active speakers.

My own system, a pair of fully active Adam Artist 6 (compact floor standers like the Dali), plus an inexpensive streamer/dac cost less than either system and are way better in respect of dynamics, clarity, bass control and (clean) loudness capability.

 

[BigH]

No they are not active, powered with the same passive crossover.

 

[Jota180]

"The ZENSOR 5 AX is based on the technology of the ZENSOR 5. They share the same passive crossover, which is paramount for getting the characteristic ZENSOR sound quality. The build-in amplifier is integrated in the left speaker, while the right speaker is a passive ZENSOR 5 speaker.

The DALI ZENSOR AX has a build-in 2 x 50W stereo all digital class D amplifier that delivers the audio signal to both loudspeakers and is designed to bring out the best from its passive ZENSOR host regardless of the signal type."

What the others have said. These are not proper active speakers and ^^ looks like a half arsed effort to jump on a bandwagon.

 

[davedotco]

"The ZENSOR 5 AX is based on the technology of the ZENSOR 5. They share the same passive crossover, which is paramount for getting the characteristic ZENSOR sound quality. The build-in amplifier is integrated in the left speaker, while the right speaker is a passive ZENSOR 5 speaker.

The DALI ZENSOR AX has a build-in 2 x 50W stereo all digital class D amplifier that delivers the audio signal to both loudspeakers and is designed to bring out the best from its passive ZENSOR host regardless of the signal type."

What the others have said. These are not proper active speakers and ^^ looks like a half arsed effort to jump on a bandwagon.

The Zensor 5ax appears to be designed as a simple solution for those users who really do not want to get into separates. Plug them in and send music from your phone seems to be the limit of their ambitions, though they are better than that.

The sound quality of the original Zenzor 5 is modified by the onboard dsp to deliver a more 'appealing' response to the non enthusiast, this approach tends to give a slightly artificial quality that many enthusiasts, myself included, find objectionable.

My view is like yours, they are a bit half arsed, not in performance terms though, in functionality. For the price being asked they should at least have Airplay and network capability but like most traditional hi-fi companies, they are way behind the curve.

 

[thewinelake.]

I thought that "active" just meant speakers that took a line-level (or digital) input and thus didn't need an amp. I need to be re-educated.

Obviously one of the speakers is passive - so maybe this is a semi-active pair.

But anyway, my findings sound to be "as expected", which is good. THe 5AX is obviously what one might call a "lifestyle product".

 

[davedotco]

I thought that "active" just meant speakers that took a line-level (or digital) input and thus didn't need an amp. I need to be re-educated.

Obviously one of the speakers is passive - so maybe this is a semi-active pair.

But anyway, my findings sound to be "as expected", which is good. THe 5AX is obviously what one might call a "lifestyle product".

The single biggest difference in 'active' speakers is the use of a line level active crossover that splits the signal before the amplifiers so that each drive unit (sometimes pair of drive units) have their own power amplifier directly coupled to them without any of the 'insertion loses' caused by a conventional passive crossover.

My own active speakers are similar to the Dali's in that they have 2 x bass mid drivers plus a tweeter but in this case each drive unit has it's own amplifier, ie 3 x 50 watt per speaker. The Dali has 1 x 50 watt amplifier driving all 3 drive units via a conventional passive crossover per speaker. No comparison.

There is plenty about this online, Google 'Active speaker', 'Active crossover' etc.

 

[ID.]

I thought that "active" just meant speakers that took a line-level (or digital) input and thus didn't need an amp. I need to be re-educated.

Obviously one of the speakers is passive - so maybe this is a semi-active pair.

But anyway, my findings sound to be "as expected", which is good. THe 5AX is obviously what one might call a "lifestyle product".

The use of passive here is a bit of a red herring in that all it means is that the 2nd speaker doesn't even have its own dedicated amps on board. It is the crossover that makes a speaker active and there are active speakers without on board amps. In this case, in terms of the crossovers, both speakers are passive and they work in a master-slave configuration.

 

[thewinelake.]

Maybe someone needs to educate Richer Sounds and SuperFi (among others) on this.

I see the wikipedia article uses the term "fully active" to avoid confusion with merely "powered".

Quite like the term "wireless" to describe these, although clearly there are still plenty of wires!

 

[thewinelake.]

Looks like these are quite hard to get hold of. Any ideas why?! Maybe that they're discontinued? Sometimes hard to work out with websites. What's replaced them?

....

Update - just spoke to a company that used to sell them in the UK. Adam have pulled out of domestic market. It might be possible to find some in Germany, but haven't suceeded so far (other than their smaller units)...

Maybe the Artist 3/5 would be good - what a shame one can't audition them.

 

[BigH]

Maybe someone needs to educate Richer Sounds and SuperFi (among others) on this.

I see the wikipedia article uses the term "fully active" to avoid confusion with merely "powered".

Quite like the term "wireless" to describe these, although clearly there are still plenty of wires!

Yes I quite agree, otherwise they could get into trouble for miselling. Seems some dealers don't know the difference, I had that in the past, they think if speaker has amp inside its active.

 

[BigH]

Looks like these are quite hard to get hold of. Any ideas why?! Maybe that they're discontinued? Sometimes hard to work out with websites. What's replaced them?

....

Update - just spoke to a company that used to sell them in the UK. Adam have pulled out of domestic market. It might be possible to find some in Germany, but haven't suceeded so far (other than their smaller units)...

Maybe the Artist 3/5 would be good - what a shame one can't audition them.

You can buy them through Thomann: http://www.thomann.de/gb/adam_artist_3_hochglanz_schwarz.htm

 

[davedotco]

Looks like these are quite hard to get hold of. Any ideas why?! Maybe that they're discontinued? Sometimes hard to work out with websites. What's replaced them?

....

Update - just spoke to a company that used to sell them in the UK. Adam have pulled out of domestic market. It might be possible to find some in Germany, but haven't suceeded so far (other than their smaller units)...

Maybe the Artist 3/5 would be good - what a shame one can't audition them.

You can buy them through Thomann: http://www.thomann.de/gb/adam_artist_3_hochglanz_schwarz.htm

Are a very serious German company building studio monitors, from compact desktop models for home studios, to behemoths like these...

They have also produced a range of speakers, both active and passive for hi-fi use, though at the present time the range is very small, see the 'Classic' range.

The Artist range was a bit of an oddity, the Artist 3 and 5 are essentially dressed up A3x and A5x nearfield monitors, given a lovely piano lacquer finish and an onboard usb dac for use on the (computerised) desktop. The Artist 6 has no professional equivilent as it is a compact floor stander, neither does it have an onboard dac.

Adam called these speakers 'multimedia' and added a centre channel and a sub to give a full 5.1 system. The range was marketed through the usual pro outlets, but pros saw no point in buying fancy finishes and had no use whatsoever for a floorstander.

As far as I know the Artist 3 and 6 have sold in reasonable numbers but the Artist 6 less well. It has been available from Thomann in Germany for the last couple of years for about £600 per pair, shipped, very good value. Again as far as I know Thomann sold out of the Artist 6 about 3 months ago though the Artist 3 and Artist 5 are still available.

 

[thewinelake.]

Ah, OK, so Artist 6 are discontinued, then. Maybe yours will go up in value?!

 

[rocsen]

Were the passive Dali's really that much better? I just got the 5AX and I think the clarity is supurb, midrange and bass is also very good. This is after demoing a number of separates that cost more than double. When I first connected them I thought the sound was a bit clinical (partly due to increased clarity over my previous 2.1 setup but also my room acoustics) but they're sounding better and more musical everyday. Could it be that the set you listened to in store needed some more burn-in time? How were they connected? Volume was the same between 5AX and 5?

I must add that I couldn't find a store to demo the 5AX so wasn't able to do a side by side comparison. I still wonder if it's worth ordering the Dali 5 or even 7 with separate amp to do a proper comparison.

Had an interesting demo today of Dali 5 AX (being fed by a Creek CD transport). Sounded OK, I suppose. Then the dealer changed over to the equivalent passive speakers - Dali Zensor 5, being driven by a Rotel RA11 - a fairly modest £500 amp. The amp-driven system was a revelation - MUCH better in terms of clarity and musicality. Got to say that I was surprised that Dali should put such a poor DAC/amp into the AX setup. Is this a common finding? BTW - the pricing isn't wildly different - £889 for Amp+DZ5 vs £799 for 5AX

 

[thewinelake.]

They (the un-powered ones) were connected using some stupidly expensive Chord speaker cable that cost more than the amp! Volume on both set-ups was adjusted up and down, listening to Saint Saens Organ Concerto. I hate the expression, but it really was "night and day" ;-)

Knowing what I do now, these results came as no surprise whatsoever (and calling the AX active I now regard as a crime). Assuming that the speakers/drivers are the same, then you're just comparing the amp inside the AX with a Rotel RA11 - and there's no contest. Obviously a proper active speaker would blow away the Dali.

This particular story (where I was with a friend) ended up with him going for the Rotel RA12 and a pair of Emit M20's - a very nice combination indeed. And myself ending up with second hand AVI AM9rs (although I've now been forced to relegate those to my garage listening space and use the smaller DM5s in the main lounge due to uxorial refusal to allow speaker stands in there!!)

 

[rocsen]

Why does everyone assume the amp inside the AX is so inferior? According to a proffesional review the AX sounds better than the unpowered equivalent unless you over spend on the amp. From a cost perspective if you look at the difference between the 5 and 5AX I don't think they cut any obvious corners, considereing also you don't pay for an amp chassis etc.

Not saying I don't trust your ears but I honestly can't imagine more clarity out of the Zensor 5, it would be too bright. Still, would love to try them side by side in my apartment.

 

[luckylion100]

is that if I'd purchased these under the presense of them being active speakers I'd be fuming! Whether it's Dali as the manufacturer or unscrupulous retailers there's false advertising going on here. Having looked around online company's like Exceptional Hifi, Richers and others are clearly advertising them as 'Actives'. Bad form! Superfi to their credit describe them as speakers.

2x 50W Class D Amplifiers in built is perhaps accurate but also misleading... as one could assume one amp per speaker, although reading further down the descriptions it states 'One powered speaker, one passive joined by speaker cable...'

Recently even Whathi-fi. com mentioned a pair of Wharfedale Diamond 'powered' speakers but suggested they were active in their initial descpition. A forum member rightfully pulled them up on it. So it seems everyone is at it, even this very publication... Andy Clough's reply I found rather lame....

http://www.whathifi.com/news/wharfedale-officially-announces-wireless-diamond-active-speakers

If you own these, purchased them knowing exactly what you were getting great, enjoy them. I'm sure in their own right they're great speakers.

 

[thewinelake.]

Not quite sure what "over-spending on the amp" means, but I think even the salesman admitted that the AXs didn't sound that good to him. Or maybe that was salesmanship in the form of flattery! I try to avoid claiming objectivity in my opinions, but I am also extremely skeptical of "professional reviews". Trust your own ears. If you like things that others don't (and can save a few bob), then go for it. Trying to get others to agree with you is another matter entirely! ;-)

 

[rocsen]

Agreed, that's really bad on retailers part. Dali's site is pretty clear though, stating one amplifier and also "The amplifier receives a PWM signal at 384 KHz from the DSP, which is then digitally amplified by the 50 Watts RMS Open Loop amplifier. The amplified signal is then received by the passive
crossover that distributes the signal to the drivers."

It's a common misconception to refer to powered speakers as active and retailers are partly to blame for this.

 

[rocsen]

Ofcourse how we interpret sound can be subjective and I appreciate your views, that's why I'm still curious to try them side by side myself. Hopefully I can pull it off and I'll be sure to report back here

Now I'm just not sure which amp to go for, the Marantz PM8005 or Rotel RA-12. Anyone know the tonal differences between these two?

Not quite sure what "over-spending on the amp" means, but I think even the salesman admitted that the AXs didn't sound that good to him. Or maybe that was salesmanship in the form of flattery! I try to avoid claiming objectivity in my opinions, but I am also extremely skeptical of "professional reviews". Trust your own ears. If you like things that others don't (and can save a few bob), then go for it. Trying to get others to agree with you is another matter entirely! ;-)