DacMagic and rDAC... yet to be convinced.

[Richard Allen]

the record spot:I'd lose the speakers, forget the DACMagic and find a pair that will make the biggest impact on PP's sound. Changing the source in a digital system isn't the way forward here I suspect.

Hmmm. I didn't want to walk down that route RS because I know PP is passionate about his MA's and, as a loudspeaker maker I can't make that call irrespective of what I think. However, now you've voiced it, I would tend to agree.

Judging from PP's prevoius posts when he plugged his Arcam back in place of the Leema, I suspect he's in need of a loudspeaker that is just a tad mid-forward to compensate for the Leema's 'politeness' in that region. That can, of course, be achieved with cables as well but maybe not in the way PP needs.

 

[matthewpiano]

the record spot:
EDIT: the other slight concern here is there's a tiny little hint of Matthewpiano's problems creeping through here, albeit, less widespread in your case PP!

The same thought had crossed my mind. While I'm really starting to settle with my electronics and now just sorting out some speakers that really do get the very best out of them, PP seems to be less settled than he was.

I do suspect changing the CD player would make a bigger difference than you think, but you'll need to go up to something substantially better PP. The CD73 is excellent but it can sound a bit soft, particularly in the mid-band, and this is something that the CD17 has sorted out. I think you need to go further than the '17 though as it wouldn't be enough of an upgrade. Why don't you try to pick up a good deal on a Leema Stream? Alternatively, have you tried a Naim CD5i with your system, or a Rega DAC on the end of your '73?

 

[plastic penguin]

Richard Allen:

the record spot:I'd lose the speakers, forget the DACMagic and find a pair that will make the biggest impact on PP's sound. Changing the source in a digital system isn't the way forward here I suspect.

Hmmm. I didn't want to walk down that route RS because I know PP is passionate about his MA's and, as a loudspeaker maker I can't make that call irrespective of what I think. However, now you've voiced it, I would tend to agree.

Judging from PP's prevoius posts when he plugged his Arcam back in place of the Leema, I suspect he's in need of a loudspeaker that is just a tad mid-forward to compensate for the Leema's 'politeness' in that region. That can, of course, be achieved with cables as well but maybe not in the way PP needs.

Appreciate your views, and certainly haven't taken it personal. I'm not sitting here with a doll sticking pins in it...

Let me point out a couple of things: it's no use anyone saying, "ditch the Leema". How many different sources have I heard with the Leema? Apart from my 73T and (briefly) the 192? Nowt. The reason is simple: I don't want to end up shelling loads of money while I search for the "right" source and speakers.

Ah, right. Speakers: True, I am passionate about my MAs, but I am realistic. Remember, I only purchased this pair as a "stop gap". The RS6s are fabulous speakers.... for the MONEY. This is something I've always made very clear, but they can be bettered.

So recommendations for DACS and speakers please... The DAC is the first port of call.

 

[Anonymous]

As I said earlier, try the Musical Fidelity M1. I'd be surprised if this isn't ideal.

 

[chebby]

plastic penguin:So recommendations for DACS and speakers please... The DAC is the first port of call.

Rega DAC.

Speakers... SA1s, ATC SCM11s (yes I know, but you only heard them with Cyrus), Rega RS3s or RS5s (suit Naim very well, maybe they will gel with Leema).

 

[Anonymous]

igglebert:As I said earlier, try the Musical Fidelity M1. I'd be surprised if this isn't ideal.

I love my M1

 

[the record spot]

plastic penguin:

So recommendations for DACS and speakers please... The DAC is the first port of call.

Stello DA100 Signature DAC. Circa £650. Speakers, by the sounds of things, something that is a tad more balanced than your RS6 speaker, i.e., a little less revealing/bright.

 

[chebby]

the record spot:Stello DA100 Signature DAC. Circa £650.

Both WHF and a competing magazine reviewed the Stello DA 100 Signature in July last year and both quoted the price as £750.

Which UK dealers stock them? Where did you get the £650 from?

I know Russ Andrews used to badge the 'vanilla' DA 100 as part of their Desktop range, but they no longer list this version.

The Rega DAC is going to be a lot easier to find (especially once the initial demand has levelled off a bit) given that the entire Audio-T chain and all other Rega dealers will have it. It will also be a lot easier to arrange a dealer demo or home demo.

The reviews I mentioned above both awarded the Stello DA 100 Signature 4/5 (for different reasons). What did you think of it?

 

[chebby]

Okay. I have answered my own question regarding Stello dealers in the UK.

According to the distributor (Vivid Audio) there are four UK dealers...

http://vividaudio.co.uk/dealers/stello.html

Three of those dealers don't list Stello on their product listings (definitely phone before travelling to any of them), and the fourth dealer is actually the distributor themselves under the name 'Rock Solid Audio' at the same address in Billingshurst. (They don't quote a current price though.)

 

[Anonymous]

Different speakers. The source isn't your problem. Alternatively revert to the Arcam/Monitor Audio system you had and sell the Leema, since you've found basically that it doesn't fit.

Also, the ADM 9.1s are quite dry by all accounts, so, if you like a system which borders on rich, they're not for you.

 

[the record spot]

chebby:
the record spot:Stello DA100 Signature DAC. Circa £650.

Both WHF and a competing magazine reviewed the Stello DA 100 Signature in July last year and both quoted the price as £750.

Which UK dealers stock them? Where did you get the £650 from?

I know Russ Andrews used to badge the 'vanilla' DA 100 as part of their Desktop range, but they no longer list this version.

The Rega DAC is going to be a lot easier to find (especially once the initial demand has levelled off a bit) given that the entire Audio-T chain and all other Rega dealers will have it. It will also be a lot easier to arrange a dealer demo or home demo.

The reviews I mentioned above both awarded the Stello DA 100 Signature 4/5 (for different reasons). What did you think of it?

I'll answer the last one first - never heard it, but using my own barometer here and nothing else, were it MY money and if I were looking for a step-up from the entry level, it'd be on the list like a shot. In fact, I nearly bought one the other week until I realised it was the non-Signature edition (which is coax only from memory and less options on the outputs).

Why mention it then? I don't agree with the "no commenting unless you've heard it" POV that was popular on here a while ago. I think that's a non-starter and my experience with the DACMagic bears that out - going by almost every other review or opinion, it's a no-brainer. Since I posted my views in my setup, one or two others have raised similar concerns. So, it matters not that I heard it - or not - but how it sounds in PP's setup, with his gear, music, in his room and with regard to his preferences. What I think sounds mellow, he might think is muddy. What I think bright, he might see as perfect. It's academic, or, to quote Ned Rierson, a character in Groundhog Day: "It's a crapshoot".

Four out of five? Irrelevant. I note you yourself mentioned that a three star amp such as Yamaha's AS700 (and as given in WHFS&V's review last year) would be good for you on the back of some of the content in the review.

All I would say is that others have mentioned the Rega DAC and I gave an alternative, yes, it is less readily available, but you can get the DA100 Signature for £575 (Emporium Hi Fi on Ebay have one, new, with full guarantee). I think £650 was the entry price as was in Hi Fi World a couple of years ago, so it's gone up somewhat. My bad, but I stand by the recommendation. Come to think of it, I just remembered David Price recommended I get it when my letter was printed in HFW a couple of years back. Knew there was something else to add...!

 

[plastic penguin]

Grottyash:

Different speakers. The source isn't your problem. Alternatively revert to the Arcam/Monitor Audio system you had and sell the Leema, since you've found basically that it doesn't fit.

Also, the ADM 9.1s are quite dry by all accounts, so, if you like a system which borders on rich, they're not for you.

If youread my earlier post on page 2 I actually said, apart from the CD73T and (briefly) CD192, I ain't heard any other sources on the Leema.

 

[plastic penguin]

the record spot:chebby:

the record spot:Stello DA100 Signature DAC. Circa £650.

Both WHF and a competing magazine reviewed the Stello DA 100 Signature in July last year and both quoted the price as £750.

Which UK dealers stock them? Where did you get the £650 from?

I know Russ Andrews used to badge the 'vanilla' DA 100 as part of their Desktop range, but they no longer list this version.

The Rega DAC is going to be a lot easier to find (especially once the initial demand has levelled off a bit) given that the entire Audio-T chain and all other Rega dealers will have it. It will also be a lot easier to arrange a dealer demo or home demo.

The reviews I mentioned above both awarded the Stello DA 100 Signature 4/5 (for different reasons). What did you think of it?

I'll answer the last one first - never heard it, but using my own barometer here and nothing else, were it MY money and if I were looking for a step-up from the entry level, it'd be on the list like a shot. In fact, I nearly bought one the other week until I realised it was the non-Signature edition (which is coax only from memory and less options on the outputs).
Why mention it then? I don't agree with the "no commenting unless you've heard it" POV that was popular on here a while ago. I think that's a non-starter and my experience with the DACMagic bears that out - going by almost every other review or opinion, it's a no-brainer. Since I posted my views in my setup, one or two others have raised similar concerns. So, it matters not that I heard it - or not - but how it sounds in PP's setup, with his gear, music, in his room and with regard to his preferences. What I think sounds mellow, he might think is muddy. What I think bright, he might see as perfect. It's academic, or, to quote Ned Rierson, a character in Groundhog Day: "It's a crapshoot".
Four out of five? Irrelevant. I note you yourself mentioned that a three star amp such as Yamaha's AS700 (and as given in WHFS&V's review last year) would be good for you on the back of some of the content in the review.
All I would say is that others have mentioned the Rega DAC and I gave an alternative, yes, it is less readily available, but you can get the DA100 Signature for £575 (Emporium Hi Fi on Ebay have one, new, with full guarantee). I think £650 was the entry price as was in Hi Fi World a couple of years ago, so it's gone up somewhat. My bad, but I stand by the recommendation. Come to think of it, I just remembered David Price recommended I get it when my letter was printed in HFW a couple of years back. Knew there was something else to add...!

It has to be open and airy sounding, not warm or rich in presentation. Certainly look at MF M1 and a couple of the others mentioned. You're right, no matter how it sounds on other systems it has to hit the mark. On the face of it, let's be honest, although I love the CD73, it shouldn't be to much of a hurdle to find the right one.

 

[Craig M.]

the record spot:

Why mention it then? I don't agree with the "no commenting unless you've heard it" POV that was popular on here a while ago. I think that's a non-starter and my experience with the DACMagic bears that out - going by almost every other review or opinion, it's a no-brainer. Since I posted my views in my setup, one or two others have raised similar concerns. So, it matters not that I heard it - or not - but how it sounds in PP's setup, with his gear, music, in his room and with regard to his preferences. What I think sounds mellow, he might think is muddy. What I think bright, he might see as perfect. It's academic, or, to quote Ned Rierson, a character in Groundhog Day: "It's a crapshoot".

i pretty much never comment on anything unless i've heard it, but you make a very good point there.

 

[Anonymous]

plastic penguin:Grottyash:
Different speakers. The source isn't your problem. Alternatively revert to the Arcam/Monitor Audio system you had and sell the Leema, since you've found basically that it doesn't fit.

Also, the ADM 9.1s are quite dry by all accounts, so, if you like a system which borders on rich, they're not for you.

If youread my earlier post on page 2 I actually said, apart from the CD73T and (briefly) CD192, I ain't heard any other sources on the Leema.
? I'm saying the source isn't the problem.

 

[plastic penguin]

Here we go again...

Went into Audio-T yesterday to pick-up my mains lead for the TT, told him my system and the problem about lack of treble, toying with the idea of buying a DAC or speakers first.

He is firmly in the CDP camp over the DAC. He said to me fairly convincingly: "I could sell you sell you a 2k Naim DAC and you wouldn't hear any difference between that and a £700 Cyrus, Audiolab or even Marantz Pearl Lite. The quality of file will determine the SQ, and the only convincing file is WAV; that alone will match [the above] CDPs."

As regards the speakers: He says his home system there's a pair of Focal 716, by far the cheapest component, and every upgrade is distinctly heard. He concluded by saying the RS6s are "one hell of a speaker", and he would be happy to sell me a £700 CDP rather than an expensive DAC. And if I go the speaker route, he could sell me a 5k pair on my current amp and sources and would barely hear any difference.

Views please.

 

[True Blue]

They must have a lot of old CDP's to shift.

Yes the NDAC is only as good as what you feed it, however it reclocks it reducing jitter, and can play 24bit files, which DEFINATELY sound better than a CDP.

If I could have afforded one I would have bought one.

Speakers are a very personal preference depending on rooms etc as you know. I think in a round about way he is definitely attempting to sell a "source first" approach which many believe in.

 

[respe]

I would have a word with your local dealer and get a Rega Dac on dem. Having had a listen two or three times recently I think it would tick most boxes. If the sytem still sound 'wrong' then you are going to have spend a while listening to systems to try and work out which direction to go in.

One thought, If you are in traveling distance the wam are having a forum members show in melton mowbrey early march. Something like 50 systems to wrap your ears round in one place see www,thehishow.com for details

 

[plastic penguin]

True Blue:

They must have a lot of old CDP's to shift.

Yes the NDAC is only as good as what you feed it, however it reclocks it reducing jitter, and can play 24bit files, which DEFINATELY sound better than a CDP.

If I could have afforded one I would have bought one.

Speakers are a very personal preference depending on rooms etc as you know. I think in a round about way he is definitely attempting to sell a "source first" approach which many believe in.

I'm sure you're right about 24 bit files. However, when I went into Richers last week and asked the same question the sales person said teh DacMagic for SQ and rDAC for usability - no reference towards CDPs.

It'd be easy for this person at Audio-T to say: " Buy Spendor A5 and a rDAC and you're home and dry..." so for his honesty alone, it's very admirable in these tough financial times.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

plastic penguin:
Here we go again...

Went into Audio-T yesterday to pick-up my mains lead for the TT, told him my system and the problem about lack of treble, toying with the idea of buying a DAC or speakers first.

He is firmly in the CDP camp over the DAC. He said to me fairly convincingly: "I could sell you sell you a 2k Naim DAC and you wouldn't hear any difference between that and a £700 Cyrus, Audiolab or even Marantz Pearl Lite. The quality of file will determine the SQ, and the only convincing file is WAV; that alone will match [the above] CDPs."

As regards the speakers: He says his home system there's a pair of Focal 716, by far the cheapest component, and every upgrade is distinctly heard. He concluded by saying the RS6s are "one hell of a speaker", and he would be happy to sell me a £700 CDP rather than an expensive DAC. And if I go the speaker route, he could sell me a 5k pair on my current amp and sources and would barely hear any difference.

Views please.

Wowsers! That sounds like a load of old twaddle to me PP. So, he is saying that you would barely hear a difference between your system if he swapped your RS6s for the PL300s????!!!! My word. I have noticed a big/massive improvement over my RS6s and speakers half the price he mentions. As for the DAC against cdp, I really don't know where he is coming from. Interesting though.

 

[Craig M.]

Gerrardasnails:plastic penguin:
Here we go again...

Went into Audio-T yesterday to pick-up my mains lead for the TT, told him my system and the problem about lack of treble, toying with the idea of buying a DAC or speakers first.

He is firmly in the CDP camp over the DAC. He said to me fairly convincingly: "I could sell you sell you a 2k Naim DAC and you wouldn't hear any difference between that and a £700 Cyrus, Audiolab or even Marantz Pearl Lite. The quality of file will determine the SQ, and the only convincing file is WAV; that alone will match [the above] CDPs."

As regards the speakers: He says his home system there's a pair of Focal 716, by far the cheapest component, and every upgrade is distinctly heard. He concluded by saying the RS6s are "one hell of a speaker", and he would be happy to sell me a £700 CDP rather than an expensive DAC. And if I go the speaker route, he could sell me a 5k pair on my current amp and sources and would barely hear any difference.

Views please.

Wowsers! That sounds like a load of old twaddle to me PP. So, he is saying that you would barely hear a difference between your system if he swapped your RS6s for the PL300s????!!!! My word. I have noticed a big/massive improvement over my RS6s and speakers half the price he mentions. As for the DAC against cdp, I really don't know where he is coming from. Interesting though.

i agree with mr. snails. i consider that 'advice' so bad, i personally wouldn't listen to another thing he said.

 

[plastic penguin]

Gerrardasnails:plastic penguin:

Here we go again...

Went into Audio-T yesterday to pick-up my mains lead for the TT, told him my system and the problem about lack of treble, toying with the idea of buying a DAC or speakers first.

He is firmly in the CDP camp over the DAC. He said to me fairly convincingly: "I could sell you sell you a 2k Naim DAC and you wouldn't hear any difference between that and a £700 Cyrus, Audiolab or even Marantz Pearl Lite. The quality of file will determine the SQ, and the only convincing file is WAV; that alone will match [the above] CDPs."

As regards the speakers: He says his home system there's a pair of Focal 716, by far the cheapest component, and every upgrade is distinctly heard. He concluded by saying the RS6s are "one hell of a speaker", and he would be happy to sell me a £700 CDP rather than an expensive DAC. And if I go the speaker route, he could sell me a 5k pair on my current amp and sources and would barely hear any difference.

Views please.

Wowsers! That sounds like a load of old twaddle to me PP. So, he is saying that you would barely hear a difference between your system if he swapped your RS6s for the PL300s????!!!! My word. I have noticed a big/massive improvement over my RS6s and speakers half the price he mentions. As for the DAC against cdp, I really don't know where he is coming from. Interesting though.

I really don't know, Gerrard. A lot of what he said about the DAC route, understandably, went over my head. That said, he did spend a lot of time explaining the pros and cons of both formats. He also mentioned about storage: by the time I factor in the cost of that plus the DAC (even s/hand ones), you're still talking about £700-£800 all in.

I can see where he's coming from on the speaker front; even though I love the Arcam CDP, like any component, it has its limitations, and I suppose he sees the source as the leakest link. I think like all sales people you have to read between the lines. Blimey, I should know...

. However, this has added aspect to consider. Or as some may say: Another headache.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

plastic penguin:Gerrardasnails:plastic penguin:

Here we go again...

Went into Audio-T yesterday to pick-up my mains lead for the TT, told him my system and the problem about lack of treble, toying with the idea of buying a DAC or speakers first.

He is firmly in the CDP camp over the DAC. He said to me fairly convincingly: "I could sell you sell you a 2k Naim DAC and you wouldn't hear any difference between that and a £700 Cyrus, Audiolab or even Marantz Pearl Lite. The quality of file will determine the SQ, and the only convincing file is WAV; that alone will match [the above] CDPs."

As regards the speakers: He says his home system there's a pair of Focal 716, by far the cheapest component, and every upgrade is distinctly heard. He concluded by saying the RS6s are "one hell of a speaker", and he would be happy to sell me a £700 CDP rather than an expensive DAC. And if I go the speaker route, he could sell me a 5k pair on my current amp and sources and would barely hear any difference.

Views please.

Wowsers! That sounds like a load of old twaddle to me PP. So, he is saying that you would barely hear a difference between your system if he swapped your RS6s for the PL300s????!!!! My word. I have noticed a big/massive improvement over my RS6s and speakers half the price he mentions. As for the DAC against cdp, I really don't know where he is coming from. Interesting though.

I really don't know, Gerrard. A lot of what he said about the DAC route, understandably, went over my head. That said, he did spend a lot of time explaining the pros and cons of both formats. He also mentioned about storage: by the time I factor in the cost of that plus the DAC (even s/hand ones), you're still talking about £700-£800 all in.

I can see where he's coming from on the speaker front; even though I love the Arcam CDP, like any component, it has its limitations, and I suppose he sees the source as the leakest link. I think like all sales people you have to read between the lines. Blimey, I should know...

. However, this has added aspect to consider. Or as some may say: Another headache.

Aha but if he is right, my set up wouldn't have improved. My DAC is a £220 one. So in his book the same sort of level as your cd player (and we have talked about that before). So, if we use your cd player as an example for the dealer's argument, my new speakers would be held back by the source and would not sound much different from my old speakers! Well, they do Mr Audio-T.

As for storage, you can get a 1TB HDD for under £50 these days. That's enough for most people (FLAC files, I would guess at 3-4000 albums). Have you checked out the Moon 100D DAC, it's supposed to be very nice and is around the £500 mark - with a drive £550. I'm fairly certain this combo would be a massive upgrade to your cdp.

 

[plastic penguin]

Gerrardasnails:plastic penguin:Gerrardasnails:plastic penguin:

Here we go again...

Went into Audio-T yesterday to pick-up my mains lead for the TT, told him my system and the problem about lack of treble, toying with the idea of buying a DAC or speakers first.

He is firmly in the CDP camp over the DAC. He said to me fairly convincingly: "I could sell you sell you a 2k Naim DAC and you wouldn't hear any difference between that and a £700 Cyrus, Audiolab or even Marantz Pearl Lite. The quality of file will determine the SQ, and the only convincing file is WAV; that alone will match [the above] CDPs."

As regards the speakers: He says his home system there's a pair of Focal 716, by far the cheapest component, and every upgrade is distinctly heard. He concluded by saying the RS6s are "one hell of a speaker", and he would be happy to sell me a £700 CDP rather than an expensive DAC. And if I go the speaker route, he could sell me a 5k pair on my current amp and sources and would barely hear any difference.

Views please.

Wowsers! That sounds like a load of old twaddle to me PP. So, he is saying that you would barely hear a difference between your system if he swapped your RS6s for the PL300s????!!!! My word. I have noticed a big/massive improvement over my RS6s and speakers half the price he mentions. As for the DAC against cdp, I really don't know where he is coming from. Interesting though.

I really don't know, Gerrard. A lot of what he said about the DAC route, understandably, went over my head. That said, he did spend a lot of time explaining the pros and cons of both formats. He also mentioned about storage: by the time I factor in the cost of that plus the DAC (even s/hand ones), you're still talking about £700-£800 all in.

I can see where he's coming from on the speaker front; even though I love the Arcam CDP, like any component, it has its limitations, and I suppose he sees the source as the leakest link. I think like all sales people you have to read between the lines. Blimey, I should know...

. However, this has added aspect to consider. Or as some may say: Another headache.

Aha but if he is right, my set up wouldn't have improved. My DAC is a £220 one. So in his book the same sort of level as your cd player (and we have talked about that before). So, if we use your cd player as an example for the dealer's argument, my new speakers would be held back by the source and would not sound much different from my old speakers! Well, they do Mr Audio-T. As for storage, you can get a 1TB HDD for under £50 these days. That's enough for most people (FLAC files, I would guess at 3-4000 albums). Have you checked out the Moon 100D DAC, it's supposed to be very nice and is around the £500 mark - with a drive £550. I'm fairly certain this combo would be a massive upgrade to your cdp.

No what he's saying is the biggest improvement would be heard by upgrading the source(s) first, as opposed to speakers. It was then I asked about going the DAC route, for which he talked about quality of file - overall the better route, in his view, is to spend the budget on a CDP, such as Cyrus, Audiolab etc.

I've been into three different outlets recently and everyone has had a different preferance, hence why I've given this thread a kiss of life.

 

[ID.]

PP, I get the feeling that you've gone as far as advice is going to take you. You're now receiving so many opinions (and they are just opinions) that you are getting various conflicting messages and you seem more confused than ever (or at least, I'm confused).

I think you need to take a leap and move onto auditioning. Checking out the rDac ad DM in store was a good move, but I get the feeling it would have provided a more definite answer if it had been a home audition.

There are many ways to skin a cat (brighter source, different speakers, kitting it all out with Nordost Blue heaven cabling, or, heaven forbid, different amp

) but I think it is time to start whittling down some of the possibilities by actually trying them out (at home where possible).