DAC comparisons

[thewinelake.]

I'm in the market for a DAC to get music from my phone/laptop/old CD Transport (with coax out) into an analogue amp.

Ideally something with USB, coax, toslink and Bluetooth/wifi, but I accept that compromises may be necessary (or another box to go from Bluetooth to USB).

i understand that the very best DACs are sophisticated beasts that employ all sorts of tricks to minimise jitter and provide clean signals, but haven't actually heard the difference myself. And then one has "reclockers" which seems even more bizarre!

How much difference DO they make? Is it like Spotify vs CS (eg anyone could tell if on a vaguely decent system) or like spending £100 vs £10 on interconnects (where most couldn't?).

i would say that there is a noticeable difference between iPhone headphone out compared to the DAC in a Google Chromecast Audio. Presumably a dragonfly would be noticeably better than that?

The DACMagic 100 seems to do much of what I want, but it seems a bit long in the tooth and I'm wondering if a 101 or a 200 is just around the corner? Or if there's an obvious competitor. The £50 Lindy device looks a bit rubbish, but maybe is as good as Chromecast?

 

[thewinelake.]

...and has anyone tried the Topping VX2? Looks quite nice, has all the connections (save wireless) but seems too cheap!

 

[busb]

Just a preposal for renaming this forum *yahoo*

My current DAC is an audiolab M-DAC. I have an M-DAC+ on order that will have an incremental lift in SQ but will decode DSD that I want to try out.

I rencently borrowed £3k's worth of Chord Hugo TT for a few days it initially sounded far more detailed than mine. After further listening I also realised the bass was lifted noticeably. More extensive listening made me realise that the increase in detail was more to do with slight-of-hand rather than merely extracting extra detail. The Chord's SQ was dependant on what was played - classical music sounded OK but some electronica sounded odd - false dynamics & distortion. I & also hated the Chord's interface (or lack of one) so am glad to see the back of its with its buzzing & hot external PSU.

I would suggest that ALL DACs give about 90% of the very best available ones. That extra 10% increases exponetially in cost to achieve.

I bought a really cheap DAC off Amazon that had optical or coax input for my girlfriend's system using bits I used to own - it works fine & cost under £30.

 

[rikstar]

Conspicuously absent from What hi-fi? reviews is any mention of a DAC design emanating from the USA, a design offered by it's maker as open source. This means that a number of manufacturers around the world have taken the design and made their magic DAC boxes with varying facilities. See this link for the comany I've dealt with: http://www.headnhifi.com/dac

Another outlet I came across via Amazon was Mayflower Electronics: https://www.mayflowerelectronics.com/

All these produce essentially the same tried and tested design and I can tell you that the DACs (and headphone amps) I own are highly recommendable and are amazingly cheap compared to the competition. I originally purchased a DAC and amp from Exeter based Epiphany Acoustics but they have ceased trading. I now deal with the Swiss outlet. Please see the following link to get a good idea of how this open source DAC design was developed:

http://nwavguy.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/odac-released.html

I would offer to review these products but it seems to do so, you must own it AND it has to be searchable in WHF?'s database of products.

 

[wilsmusic]

The arcam air dac doesn't have usb But fits your other criteria. For streaming from your phone it is a fantastic option.

229 pounds at richer sounds is a bargain.

 

[thewinelake.]

ODAC sounds interesting but would not be any use for taking output from a CD transport. Is it possible to get a coax/toslink to USB adaptor?

 

[rikstar]

ODAC sounds interesting but would not be any use for taking output from a CD transport. Is it possible to get a coax/toslink to USB adaptor?

You could message Stefan at Headnhifi for answers to any queries. Go to the web page and look for customer service>contact us.

 

[thewinelake.]

So I've just placed an order with JDS in the USA for a plain JDS ODAC. Who knows if it'd be any better than a DAC Magic or similar, but I reckon that USB-sourced sound is likely to be my primary option.

 

[BigH]

So I've just placed an order with JDS in the USA for a plain JDS ODAC. Who knows if it'd be any better than a DAC Magic or similar, but I reckon that USB-sourced sound is likely to be my primary option.

I thought the ODAC was the same as the Edac: http://http://epiphany-acoustics.co.uk/products-page/dacs/e-dac-24bit-miniature-usb-dac/

Only £100 here.

 

[rikstar]

That's quick work - I hope you enjoy your purchase. Do keep us informed.

 

[rikstar]

Epiphany Acoustics has ceased trading.

 

[BigH]

Epiphany Acoustics has ceased trading.

Really, ok then.

 

[thewinelake.]

I might be cancelling for the time being. My system's not in place yet, and I'm thinking that I might pick up a DAC Magic 100 for the same money. If only I could do a side-by-side comparison.

And it gets worse - I seem to have accidentally ordered the headphone amp! But John (presumably the J in JDS) has cancelled my order for me - that would have been annoying.

 

[thewinelake.]

It has just occurred to me that I've not really been thinking this through to the ultimate use-case.

I tend not to want to have my laptop or even phone connected to the hifi. Sure, I can use the wonderful Google Chromecast, but I think a DAC with built-in client (i.e. a streamer) would be very worthwhile. So something like the Pioneer N-50A. I presume that has a vaguely decent DAC built in. Or else I suppose there must be other open-source software solutions that might run on a raspberry Pi and connect to a USB DAC (eg. the ODAC or Muse, etc).

The N-50A seems to go for £350, so maybe the extra £200 compared to around £150 standalone DAC (ODAC or DACMagic 100) could be money well spent in terms of convenience.

Also, maybe these combined streamer-CD players eg ONKYO CN7050 could be a nice thing to have....

...so many options that it makes my head spin!

 

[Gray]

It has just occurred to me that I've not really been thinking this through to the ultimate use-case.

I tend not to want to have my laptop or even phone connected to the hifi. Sure, I can use the wonderful Google Chromecast, but I think a DAC with built-in client (i.e. a streamer) would be very worthwhile. So something like the Pioneer N-50A. I presume that has a vaguely decent DAC built in. Or else I suppose there must be other open-source software solutions that might run on a raspberry Pi and connect to a USB DAC (eg. the ODAC or Muse, etc).

The N-50A seems to go for £350, so maybe the extra £200 compared to around £150 standalone DAC (ODAC or DACMagic 100) could be money well spent in terms of convenience.

Also, maybe these combined streamer-CD players could be a nice thing to have....

...so many options that it makes my head spin!

I've always liked the idea (but not the price) of the Cambridge CXN. Then there's that Pioneer N50A

which was on offer at £369 (down from its original £500)

At the suggestion of a WHF poster, I have given the Raspberry Pi a go, using the RuneAudio OS and playing USB storage out through my E-DAC, which as BigH said, is the O-DAC (Epiphany called it an E-DAC when they put the O-DAC board inside a metal case)

Anyone else using the Raspberry Pi with RuneAudio?

 

[thewinelake.]

Ah, interesting! How do you like it?

It looks like Rune's own remote apps are Android only. Would MPoD (running on iPhone) control a Rune machine just as well?

Then I'd be looking at about £50 for the Raspberry Pi 3, £150 for an ODAC + some time, and that's all. Obviously that wouldn't include a CD transport, but if one's serious about a CD, you could rip it into the library without too much hassle, or else slum it with the DAC built in to the player (I might be using just the CD facility of my Panasonic DMR-BWT735EB do-everything box).

 

[Gray]

I agree with busb's comments regarding DACs. The (£400-£600) ones that I've tried sounded very similar to me. Any real audible differences may (or may not) come at the higher prices.

I can certainly recommend the O-DAC (E-DAC) though, which sounds great with hi-res and CD quality files out of a (budget) laptop.

RuneAudio tells me I'm giving 'Bit perfect' output to the DAC (by disabling all volume control and relying on my amp's VC) However I'm still deciding on the SQ from the Pi which is not the same as the 'bit perfect' output from my laptop. Maybe someone has a theory on that.

So far I'm impressed by the RuneAudio OS, the result of considerable skill and effort by its programmers. Even those Cambridge and Pioneer units will only be as good as the control apps in this respect as their own displays only show you a few lines of your library.

 

[thewinelake.]

Very useful, thanks.

I'm actually going to try installing MPD onto my Macbook and see what the control apps are like. Which one are you using?

 

[Gray]

Ah, interesting! How do you like it?

It looks like Rune's own remote apps are Android only. Would MPoD (running on iPhone) control a Rune machine just as well?

Then I'd be looking at about £50 for the Raspberry Pi 3, £150 for an ODAC + some time, and that's all. Obviously that wouldn't include a CD transport, but if one's serious about a CD, you could rip it into the library without too much hassle, or else slum it with the DAC built in to the player (I might be using just the CD facility of my Panasonic DMR-BWT735EB do-everything box).

Not sure about the use of Apple products as controllers, no doubt you've seen Rune's website, maybe worth looking at their forum for a definitive answer.

I'm using a Nexus tablet as the controller. And so far I've only connected Pi to router by Ethernet.

This is all experimental stuff to me and while I can't yet go as far as to recommend the sound quality (I think I've optimised that?) from the Raspberry Pi 3 setup, at least you know you won't have lost too much by trying one - and could use it for something else if, like me, you might ultimately end up with one of those fancy 'proper' streamers.

If the CXN was controllable by the RuneAudio app and cost the same as the N50A, I'd have the Cambridge tomorrow! (Don't ask for much do I?)

As for your options, if you've already got a 2 amp (or above) USB charger with micro USB plug, £40 would cover the Pi and the necessary micro SD card. The official PSU for the Pi 3 is now rated at 2.4 amps but only necessary for projects that fully load the board. So as long as any motorised HDD is using its own PSU, you're OK.

If the O-DAC is supplied as board only it could be fitted in the same enclosure as the Pi, which supplies its 5 volts.

If you do go down the Pi / Dac route please report on your findings, in particular any obvious sound quality differences between the Pi and your PCs USB output feeding the same DAC / amp / speakers.

By the way, before Epiphany Acoustics ceased trading, their website mentioned a forthcoming Mark 2 version of the O-DAC, which was supposed to be an improvement. It's possible that their inability to source the boards is what killed Epiphany? an otherwise highly rated Company. So any O-DAC board you get would presumably be the Mk 2 version?

 

[thewinelake.]

Jds call theirs RevB

doubt that was the reason for ceasing to trade. Prob just a coincidence?

 

[GustavAP]

It has just occurred to me that I've not really been thinking this through to the ultimate use-case.

I tend not to want to have my laptop or even phone connected to the hifi. Sure, I can use the wonderful Google Chromecast, but I think a DAC with built-in client (i.e. a streamer) would be very worthwhile. So something like the Pioneer N-50A. I presume that has a vaguely decent DAC built in. Or else I suppose there must be other open-source software solutions that might run on a raspberry Pi and connect to a USB DAC (eg. the ODAC or Muse, etc).

The N-50A seems to go for £350, so maybe the extra £200 compared to around £150 standalone DAC (ODAC or DACMagic 100) could be money well spent in terms of convenience.

Also, maybe these combined streamer-CD players could be a nice thing to have....

...so many options that it makes my head spin!

I've always liked the idea (but not the price) of the Cambridge CXN. Then there's that Pioneer N50A

which was on offer at £369 (down from its original £500)

At the suggestion of a WHF poster, I have given the Raspberry Pi a go, using the RuneAudio OS and playing USB storage out through my E-DAC, which as BigH said, is the O-DAC (Epiphany called it an E-DAC when they put the O-DAC board inside a metal case)

Anyone else using the Raspberry Pi with RuneAudio?

I'm using Runeaudio on Rpi3 connected to a Henry Audio Dac, and it's a wonderful step forward from when I previously used my Macbook pro to the DAC. If not in terms of sound (I think I heard a difference but I wouldnt testify under oath for that) but in convienence.

 

[Aestate dies longiores sunt]

Purchase the dac magic - it's magic - and it's a dac

 

[davedotco]

Take a look at the Teufel Connector 2.

It is a network streamer with TuneIn radio and support for Tidal and Spotify Connect built in, you even get 3 months free Tidal subscription.

The control app is Android/iOS, I use iOS on an oldish iPad and it is excellent, I use Spotify Connect either from the iPad or my laptop as it is controlled by the Spotify Client app. Not sure if that will work for Tidal, but it will work fine from your Android phone.

The control app gives full control including volume and equaliser but if you wish to upgrade down the line, you can use a Toslink out into a 'better' dac. I use it in conjunction with a pair of line level active speakers and the system is minimalist, just the speakers on view, the Connector is tucked away with my router.

Funtionally brilliant, I paid £119, shipped from Germany including 3 months free Tidal.

http://www.teufelaudio.co.uk/wifi/raumfeld-connector-p9527.html

 

[thewinelake.]

I'm now discussing this on two WHF fora - and someone (was it you?!) has already recommended that kit. Sounds very straightforward - and presumably I could add a DAC* if I felt that the built-in one wasn't doing me any favours.

*Although that would preclude the use of ODAC/E-DAC as I would be looking for a Toslink/coax input (I believe the Raumfeld has digital out, but not USB).

Might pop into Harrods to have a look.

This is beginning to sound most plausible and palateable!

 

[davedotco]

I'm now discussing this on two WHF fora - and someone (was it you?!) has already recommended that kit. Sounds very straightforward - and presumably I could add a DAC* if I felt that the built-in one wasn't doing me any favours.

*Although that would preclude the use of ODAC/E-DAC as I would be looking for a Toslink/coax input (I believe the Raumfeld has digital out, but not USB).

Might pop into Harrods to have a look.

This is beginning to sound most plausible and palateable!

A lot will depend on the way you look at hi-fi.

For example, I do not consider Spotify Connect to be a 'real' hi-fi source, neither do I feel that full fat Tidal offers sufficient improvement to be worth the extra cost.

I have come to the conclusion that, for most 'popular' music (my taste is very broad) and most systems it is very sensible to limit your ambitions and buy a system that works well functionally and sounds consistently good across a wide range of recordings.

My current setup is easily good enough to resolve the different quality of the available recordings on Spotify but rarely makes a poor recording unlistenable, I am aware that I can easily improve the soud quality on the better recordings but do not want to upset the very 'balanced' results I am getting at the moment.