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Cynic is convinced

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The_Lhc

New member
Oct 16, 2008
1,175
1
0
jase fox:the_lhc:jase fox:idc:My experience is that an upgraded mains cable (Russ Andrews) made a difference to CDP but not amp and less than £50 but more than a tenner is the optimum spend on any cable.Interesting find idc, At the moment i'm using a RA classic powercord for my amp & a RA yello powercord for my CDP, would you suggest if i use the yello powercord for my amp instead of the classic it wouldnt degrade the sound in any way?

And if i use the classic on my CDP it should be better than the yello ?

Any suggestions?
Errr, suck it and see?

I intend to, but i was just asking idc what he thought?

I think that would be the wrong thing to do, you'd be better off trying it first and making your own mind up, otherwise if idc says "yeah it'll sound great" or "no, it'll be horrible", you could be sub-consciously conditioned to expect a difference one way or the other. If you don't know what you're expecting to happen then, arguably, you should only hear whatever difference is actually present, if any.

If you see what I mean?
 

SteveR750

Well-known member
Mar 11, 2005
537
24
18,895
hammill:

Some people go in for self trepanation and claim it makes them feel good. I don't fell obliged to try that out before suggesting that they are somewhat misguided and to request some scientific evidence to justify their behaviour.

Before double blind testing showed that homeopathy is a placebo effect, it sounded extremely unlikely to me and I was not going to risk my health without some evidence of its efficacy. Until I see some scientific evidence on mains cables improving sound quality, I will treat them as snake oil and keep my money in my wallet.

I'm not sure that many people willl pay for soemthing that has no discernible benefit. By inference though, would you buy a piece of equipment because the lab test indicated it was better even if your ears didn't?

Someone else (jax?) posted that some people just hear what they want to hear, which is opening a nice philosophical can of worms about existensialism etc. You might argue that there is no other reality - if you can hear a difference whether or not it is *real*) then it IS real!
 

Alec

Well-known member
Oct 8, 2007
478
0
18,890
aliEnRIK:

Clare Newsome:OK, how about the shielding on upgrade mains cables, designed to reduce interference?

....and braided cables designed to reduce both mains bourne RFI AND EMI (And have MEASUREABLY done so)

People will keep making this point. Well, so what? Because you can measure it you can hear it? Wrong.

I have no opinion, just get a bit sick of the same ol' tosh being spouted.

People should frankly be embarrassed that i dont care and im scientifically "slow" shall we say, and i can still see the huge flaws in discussions like this. and there are plenty on the other side to.

Also, how can a cable, by appearance alone, show itself to be obviously inferior? It cannot.
 

Alec

Well-known member
Oct 8, 2007
478
0
18,890
the_lhc:

aliEnRIK: But you cant knock what you havnt tried

Come come Erik, surely you've been here long enough to know that that's exactly what you CAN do, indeed it's almost compulsory...

This is v funny.

You're on good form today, Mr lhc.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I believe if the a.c. supply cable is well shielded, the shield is grounded at one end (source), and well constructed then thats all thats needed. If in doubt use a specialist meter to test how much electromagnetic interference there is in the vicinity of the equipment - the general rule is adding distance between that and your system helps.

Surely the real issue is RF and harmonics induced/injected into your house mains by switchmode devices and other connected capacitive/inductive electronic devices. A simple ac cable upgrade won't fix that noisy supply characteristic. An oscilloscoe connected to an insulated ring CT placed around the mains connector will demonstrate that better than your ears. To my mind, mains conditioners, AC-DC-AC convertors, and the like between the supply and the equipment are a better spend than a fancy ac cable, provided they are not introducing their own noise on their output. Once again, the 'scope will show that.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Clare Newsome:OK, how about the shielding on upgrade mains cables, designed to reduce interference?

There's an interesting article from Bryston about cables at :http://www.bryston.com/newsletters/82_files/vol8is2.html which explains the issues quite well.ÿ
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
kiwidoug*:
I believe if the a.c. supply cable is well shielded, the shield is grounded at one endÿ(source), and well constructed then thats all thats needed.ÿ If in doubt use a specialist meter to test how muchÿelectromagnetic interferenceÿthere is in the vicinity of the equipment -ÿ the general rule is adding distance between that and your system helps.

Surely the real issue is RF and harmonics induced/injected into your house mains by switchmode devices andÿotherÿconnected capacitive/inductive electronic devices.ÿA simple ac cable upgrade won't fix that noisy supply characteristic.ÿAn oscilloscoe connected to an insulated ring CT placed around the mains connector will demonstrate that better than your ears. To my mind, mains conditioners, AC-DC-AC convertors, and the likeÿbetween the supply and the equipment are a better spend than a fancy ac cable,ÿprovided they are not introducing their own noise on their output.ÿ Once again, the 'scope will show that.

Isn't this forgetting that audio component manufacturers are well aware of the problems and design their gear accordingly?ÿ
 

hammill

New member
Mar 20, 2008
212
0
0
SteveR750:hammill:

Some people go in for self trepanation and claim it makes them feel good. I don't fell obliged to try that out before suggesting that they are somewhat misguided and to request some scientific evidence to justify their behaviour.

Before double blind testing showed that homeopathy is a placebo effect, it sounded extremely unlikely to me and I was not going to risk my health without some evidence of its efficacy. Until I see some scientific evidence on mains cables improving sound quality, I will treat them as snake oil and keep my money in my wallet.

I'm not sure that many people willl pay for soemthing that has no discernible benefit. By inference though, would you buy a piece of equipment because the lab test indicated it was better even if your ears didn't?

Someone else (jax?) posted that some people just hear what they want to hear, which is opening a nice philosophical can of worms about existensialism etc. You might argue that there is no other reality - if you can hear a difference whether or not it is *real*) then it IS real!
On the contrary, millions of people pay for things that have no discernable benefit, such as homeopathic remedies, most face creams, copper bangles for arthritis etc. To answer your question, I would not expect to be able to demo a £30 mains cable, so I would consider buying one on spec if a difference could be measured or at least explained to my satisfaction. Anything more expensive, I would like to add my ears to the equation and would only buy if I could hear the difference.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Jaxwired, I had an off topic question. Hope you don't mind. You mentioned in an earlier post that you were upgrading to C565BEE. Did you?.. and what were your thoughts.

Also I have the NAD C326BEE Amp with NAD C515BEE and MA RS6's Speakers as well. Sounds pretty decent with AntiCable Speaker wires and Interconnects.

Would you recommend and upgrade to more powerful Amp like yours and probably C545BEE CD Player?

Thanks in advance for your input.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I take your point Tarquinh in that the audio manufacturers power supply filtering and the like should do just that. Using a 'scope and adding mains filtering if the 'scope indicates mains 'noise' will help though - by way of comparison this type of issue is common in the control and automation systems for process plants and doing this (when needed as indicated by testing the source with instruments) does assist the manufacturer's product performance. I believe testing also removes the vagaries of what we perceive to be hearing so helps get a surer answer.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Another aspect too: often I've read reviews wheer insertion of a mains conditioner has improved the noise floor and possible added other improved characteristics. All good. If the supply was tested and then the ouput from the mains conditioner tested we'd expect a reduction in 'mains noise' and we'd be able to see that. The caveate to beware of might be also hearing an acoustic characteristic being introduced by the mains conditioner (since it too is an active device). Yes it can all seem to do ones head in!
 

SteveR750

Well-known member
Mar 11, 2005
537
24
18,895
hammill:SteveR750:hammill:

Some people go in for self trepanation and claim it makes them feel good. I don't fell obliged to try that out before suggesting that they are somewhat misguided and to request some scientific evidence to justify their behaviour.

Before double blind testing showed that homeopathy is a placebo effect, it sounded extremely unlikely to me and I was not going to risk my health without some evidence of its efficacy. Until I see some scientific evidence on mains cables improving sound quality, I will treat them as snake oil and keep my money in my wallet.

I'm not sure that many people willl pay for soemthing that has no discernible benefit. By inference though, would you buy a piece of equipment because the lab test indicated it was better even if your ears didn't?

Someone else (jax?) posted that some people just hear what they want to hear, which is opening a nice philosophical can of worms about existensialism etc. You might argue that there is no other reality - if you can hear a difference whether or not it is *real*) then it IS real!

On the contrary, millions of people pay for things that have no discernable benefit, such as homeopathic remedies, most face creams, copper bangles for arthritis etc. To answer your question, I would not expect to be able to demo a £30 mains cable, so I would consider buying one on spec if a difference could be measured or at least explained to my satisfaction. Anything more expensive, I would like to add my ears to the equation and would only buy if I could hear the difference.

And I disagree! Because to those people they DO have a discernable benefit, that's the whole point! To you (or I maybe) they have no effcet therefore we dismiss them. So, logically you are not going to buy an "upgrade" that has no aural improvement are you? If it appears to then you might.
 

JoelSim

New member
Aug 24, 2007
767
1
0
Tarquinh:

Clare Newsome:OK, how about the shielding on upgrade mains cables, designed to reduce interference?

There's an interesting article from Bryston about cables at :http://www.bryston.com/newsletters/82_files/vol8is2.html which explains the issues quite well.

Tarquin, why don't you try one. I guarantee you will be converted
 

idc

Well-known member
Jan 2, 2008
1,042
13
19,195
the_lhc:jase fox:the_lhc:jase fox:idc:My experience is that an upgraded mains cable (Russ Andrews) made a difference to CDP but not amp and less than £50 but more than a tenner is the optimum spend on any cable.Interesting find idc, At the moment i'm using a RA classic powercord for my amp & a RA yello powercord for my CDP, would you suggest if i use the yello powercord for my amp instead of the classic it wouldnt degrade the sound in any way? And if i use the classic on my CDP it should be better than the yello ? Any suggestions?

Errr, suck it and see?

I intend to, but i was just asking idc what he thought?

I think that would be the wrong thing to do, you'd be better off trying it first and making your own mind up, otherwise if idc says "yeah it'll sound great" or "no, it'll be horrible", you could be sub-consciously conditioned to expect a difference one way or the other. If you don't know what you're expecting to happen then, arguably, you should only hear whatever difference is actually present, if any.

If you see what I mean?

Hi jase. I am chuffed you thought to ask my opinion. The_lhc, how dare you cast aspersions on my advice


I bought a Yello power cord to replace the Arcam CDP power cord. The Arcam supplied power cord did not fit very well into the socket, so much so I had to prop it up to keep it in place. The Yello cord was better made, fitted more securely and straight away it was an improvement to clarity and bass. I then got my Rega amp. Its supplied power cord fitted nicely and felt more sustantial than the Arcam one. It was also way longer than I needed it to be. So I thought that I would try the Yello and the Arcam power cords to see if they made a difference. They did not. So I did not bother to get another Yello and switched back to the Rega one, as it was better made than the Arcam one. I was not prepared to try buying a more expensive power cord as it was above the budget of what I am prepared to spend on cables.

Hope that helps Jase, without subliminally influencing your decision. Let us know how you get on with your little experiment. Don't tell the_lhc how it works out.


By the way Jase I have gone back to having my Silencer plugged in to my mains extension before any equipment. But I now squeeze into the gap and unplug the PSU for the amp I am not using. I had not realised that the PSU still gets warm even if it is not plugged into the amp. The sound is better this way with a marginal improvement to clarity and a complete loss of background hiss. But don't tell the_lhc about this or he will accuse me of interfering with your mind again
 

jase fox

Well-known member
Apr 24, 2008
212
0
18,790
Hi idc,

I asked for your opinion because you seem to know what your talking about, as for the_lhc how dare he try to come between two fellow RA silencer owners !! ha

Anyway putting the_lhc to one side, yes im going to give it a try & see what results i come up with & as for your silencer thats were i have mine also on the first socket, it does give great results.

If the_lhc doesnt think i should ask you anything etc then why come on to a website were your here to ask for advice? mmmm? Any idc ill let you know my findings very soon mate.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I've just had a chat to clearaudio, and they're going to rewire my house.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
mkeating: I've just had a chat to clearaudio, and they're going to rewire my house.

Meaning?
 

jaxwired

Well-known member
Feb 7, 2009
284
6
18,895
dane101:

Jaxwired, I had an off topic question. Hope you don't mind. You mentioned in an earlier post that you were upgrading to C565BEE. Did you?.. and what were your thoughts.

Also I have the NAD C326BEE Amp with NAD C515BEE and MA RS6's Speakers as well. Sounds pretty decent with AntiCable Speaker wires and Interconnects.

Would you recommend and upgrade to more powerful Amp like yours and probably C545BEE CD Player?

Thanks in advance for your input.

I demoed the C565bee in my home for a few days. I sent it back and kept my C545bee. While I think the 565 is a good player, the 545 is outstanding and I like it better. Unless you need the USB or digital input, I'd recommend the 545 over the more expensive 565.

Regarding your amp and CDP, I do think that the different NAD amps in the classic line sound different. So it might be worth a demo of the C355 to see if you like the sound better. Althought the RS6s are a 6 ohm speaker, they are not particularly hard to drive and your existing C326 should do an exellent job with them. If I was in your shoes, I'd look at upgrading the CDP first. The 545 is significantly superior to the 515.

You might also consider the C375 amp as an upgrade. That would be triple your current power and would set you up for any future speaker changes you might want to explore. WHF should have a review of this unit in this month's issue, but I don't know how it rated as I get my copy 3 weeks later over here...

I am totally unfamiliar with your cable, however, the cable can make a pretty big difference in how open and transparent your system sounds. If you can demo other cable brands I would do so.

One more thing, if you are not using the foam port plug in the rear of the RS6's, I highly recommend this. Midrange and over all detail improved nicely with the plug in place.

Good luck and let me know how it goes.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Many Thanks Jaxwired. I appreciate the response. I am probably going to go for the C545.

The guys I talk to in Florida actually suggested that I keep the 326BEE Amp for now. They rate it highly.

Thanks again
 

SteveR750

Well-known member
Mar 11, 2005
537
24
18,895
I have done some more listening this morning with the cable connected to the CD player and then the amp. I'm not so sure the improvements are that vast after all with the CD player, bearing in mind it was in the evening when I first tried it out, certainly I don't think I would spend any more money than the £36 or so that it costs. As for ther amp, it made no discernable difference to my ears (certainly much less than simply moving my sofa around), but it was plugged direct into the wall socket so has no benefit of the mains conditioner filtering out the rubbish from the ring main / incoming supply. Anyways I wont be getting a second lead for the amp. I also tried it on the TV watching DVD's last night and make no real difference to that either, but then its a small 19" samsung so perhaps not the most ideal candidate due to its small screen.
 

aliEnRIK

New member
Aug 27, 2008
92
0
0
RobinKidderminster:Two things. The lead into my amp is hard wired so I'have to get into the box I guess and I use a wireless mains cutoff since the plug is not very accessibel. Guess I'm stumped !

My denon amp (Which I used as a pre amp but recently upgraded to the marantz) was 'hard wired'. I actually found HUGH benefits to cutting off the cable near the amp, fitting an IEC connector and connecting a 16 core solid silver braided mains cable .
 

aliEnRIK

New member
Aug 27, 2008
92
0
0
kiwidoug*:
I believe if the a.c. supply cable is well shielded, the shield is grounded at one end (source), and well constructed then thats all thats needed. If in doubt use a specialist meter to test how much electromagnetic interference there is in the vicinity of the equipment - the general rule is adding distance between that and your system helps.

Surely the real issue is RF and harmonics induced/injected into your house mains by switchmode devices and other connected capacitive/inductive electronic devices. A simple ac cable upgrade won't fix that noisy supply characteristic. An oscilloscoe connected to an insulated ring CT placed around the mains connector will demonstrate that better than your ears. To my mind, mains conditioners, AC-DC-AC convertors, and the like between the supply and the equipment are a better spend than a fancy ac cable, provided they are not introducing their own noise on their output. Once again, the 'scope will show that.

Fair point, but braided cables DO reduce RFI
 

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