Cracked it . . . ?

[CJSF]

Eurica . . . I have finaly cracked it. Since I moved house in 1996, I have never been able to recreate what I consider, was the perfect sound for my ears. The 80's was a golden decade for my hifi activities..

. . . sorry that sounds very big headed, appologies, all gone now, I'm just simple old all washed out CJSF.

One worked very hard to achive a siound signature in the early 80's, it did reap rewards. Over the past 5 or 6 years since I re kindled my interest in hifi, it has been a goal to get back to those good times performance wise. One followed the same principals although on a lower budget, but always fell slightly short, a big bit short on ocasions!

One more or less gave up by 2016, what with personal circumstances and all. In the past few weeks things have got better, I have changed my medication to good effect, up and at'um. Having gon back over the extensive work done on the TT over the years, I'm happy that short of major expence, I cant do any more. All my cables are original to that golden 80's era, no change there, same as the speakers, they were late arivals, replacing my LS35a's.

Which brings me to the Icon 45 amplifier. A lot less expensive than the EAR 509 mono blocks, plus the Icon is an intigrated unit . . . how do I turn a sows ear into a silk purse, is it indeed a sows ear? Again changes, not as extensive as the TT, I'm no electrical enginere, but such as I could I changed valves, yes valves do have diferent sounds and they dont have to be the most expensive to be what one is looking for.. I use a mixture of 'old stock' and used valves, only the 4 output valves are new Lion KT88's.

Getting to the valve compliment I have took a lot of time, sccowering the verious sellers ads, I'm using some Russan valves that are 30 year old, 'old stock' and only cost a few quid, also tried the latest and gratest at £200 a matched pair, I require 2 pair! Sent them back as not worth the effort. My Icon 45 uses oil/paper capacitors, dont even ask how much ****!! they work, but I do wonder about the wisdom of that particular purchase . . . ?

So still on the amplifier, the system was nearly there but I new it was not quite on the mark. About a year ago I read somthing about the big output valves crosstalk via somesort of radiated energy . . . yessss???? I'm not that gulable am I ???

No, I'm not but 'dont knock it untill you have tried it'. So I disapeared into the man cave for a few hours, re emerging with apropriate lead radiation shields . . . I did not bother with the yellow and black circle on them.*acute*

Not expecting anything from this experiment I was supised, a cleaning up of trebal and base . . . but one was still left with the 'a change but not quite right' feeling.

That was 9 months ago, recentley one has been doing quite a lot of listening, still got that nagging in the back of my mind . . . not right!! My mind processing has progresivly got better recently . . . I was in the 'man cave' the other day, working on my glider, needed a sealing ring, sealing ring . . . 25mm silicone sealing ring. Thats about the size of the three small regulating valves. A perfect sug fit, listenrd to some Spotify . . . I could hear it on Spotify, 'the sound' I had been looking for. Warm, detailed, open sound stage, all the nasties gon.

I put the TT and valve phono stage to warm up. All the pieces of the jigsaw are finaly fitted. An easy relaxed sound, excelent sound stage, the detail is amazing, I can hear harmonies and harmonics again that I new were there from my 80's system, leading edges are so sharp, I think even better than the 'original sound'.

A lot of hard work has finaly paid off, I feel with interest.

CJSF

 

[Al ears]

Eurica . . . I have finaly cracked it. Since I moved house in 1996, I have never been able to recreate what I consider, was the perfect sound for my ears. The 80's was a golden decade for my hifi activities..

. . . sorry that sounds very big headed, appologies, all gone now, I'm just simple old all washed out CJSF.

One worked very hard to achive a siound signature in the early 80's, it did reap rewards. Over the past 5 or 6 years since I re kindled my interest in hifi, it has been a goal to get back to those good times performance wise. One followed the same principals although on a lower budget, but always fell slightly short, a big bit short on ocasions!

One more or less gave up by 2016, what with personal circumstances and all. In the past few weeks things have got better, I have changed my medication to good effect, up and at'um. Having gon back over the extensive work done on the TT over the years, I'm happy that short of major expence, I cant do any more. All my cables are original to that golden 80's era, no change there, same as the speakers, they were late arivals, replacing my LS35a's.

Which brings me to the Icon 45 amplifier. A lot less expensive than the EAR 509 mono blocks, plus the Icon is an intigrated unit . . . how do I turn a sows ear into a silk purse, is it indeed a sows ear? Again changes, not as extensive as the TT, I'm no electrical enginere, but such as I could I changed valves, yes valves do have diferent sounds and they dont have to be the most expensive to be what one is looking for.. I use a mixture of 'old stock' and used valves, only the 4 output valves are new Lion KT88's.

Getting to the valve compliment I have took a lot of time, sccowering the verious sellers ads, I'm using some Russan valves that are 30 year old, 'old stock' and only cost a few quid, also tried the latest and gratest at £200 a matched pair, I require 2 pair! Sent them back as not worth the effort. My Icon 45 uses oil/paper capacitors, dont even ask how much ****!! they work, but I do wonder about the wisdom of that particular purchase . . . ?

So still on the amplifier, the system was nearly there but I new it was not quite on the mark. About a year ago I read somthing about the big output valves crosstalk via somesort of radiated energy . . . yessss???? I'm not that gulable am I ???

No, I'm not but 'dont knock it untill you have tried it'. So I disapeared into the man cave for a few hours, re emerging with apropriate lead radiation shields . . . I did not bother with the yellow and black circle on them.*acute*

Not expecting anything from this experiment I was supised, a cleaning up of trebal and base . . . but one was still left with the 'a change but not quite right' feeling.

That was 9 months ago, recentley one has been doing quite a lot of listening, still got that nagging in the back of my mind . . . not right!! My mind processing has progresivly got better recently . . . I was in the 'man cave' the other day, working on my glider, needed a sealing ring, sealing ring . . . 25mm silicone sealing ring. Thats about the size of the three small regulating valves. A perfect sug fit, listenrd to some Spotify . . . I could hear it on Spotify, 'the sound' I had been looking for. Warm, detailed, open sound stage, all the nasties gon.

I put the TT and valve phono stage to warm up. All the pieces of the jigsaw are finaly fitted. An easy relaxed sound, excelent sound stage, the detail is amazing, I can hear harmonies and harmonics again that I new were there from my 80's system, leading edges are so sharp, I think even better than the 'original sound'.

A lot of hard work has finaly paid off, I feel with interest.

CJSF

Well done CJSF. I understand valve 'dampening' rings have been recommended by many for years now and they obviously made a difference in your system. Was thinking of getting some for mine but I'd need eight to fit.

 

[CJSF]

Hi Al ears, Valve rings are very good and 'cheap' if you go about it right, the silicone rings they offer in the trade are simply 'silicon O rings' cost pennies on eBay. They come in a large variety of sizes and thickneses, purer silicon is the bast material.

Simply type 'Silicon O ring' on eBay search and then look through what is on offer, select a size slightly smaller than the diamiter of the valve, in my case, valve diamiter: 29mm . . . Oring: 25mm x 1.5mm, 30 off for £3. The thickness was dictated by the unrelated job I originaly orderd them for. If I had been ordering for valve dampers I would probabely have gon for 25mm x 2mm or 3mm. I have no idea what a diferent thickness has on damping??? I'm going to try putting a second ring on my valves today to see if it makes any audible change? Not expecting much but 'never say never' . . . ?

CJSF

 

[CJSF]

Here you go Al ears:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/White-Silicone-O-Ring-Gaskets-Seals-Rubber-Gasket-Clamp-Free-P-P-M10-M50-/322372775931?var=511313540013&hash=item4b0eea2ffb:m:mNN4F7LWG5o_G-wMC0GPhlA

CJSF

 

[CJSF]

Mmm . . . an interesting experiment, two O rings in stead of the one per valve. The extra mass/damping created by the use of two O rings seems to remove some of the warmth from the sound. Makes the presentation more neuteral giving a tad more space to the instuments and performers . . . No doubt human voice benefits, however we are talking very small changes here, either presentation is acceptable to me.

Curently the O ring spacing is equal, one wonders if there might be any change by moving them together 'as one'? I will try it fore sure but feel thats getting a bit to pernicity and geekish?

For those with valve amps, the O ring damper is worth the few pence of outlay IMHO.

CJSF

 

[Al ears]

Mmm . . . an interesting experiment, two O rings in stead of the one per valve. The extra mass/damping created by the use of two O rings seems to remove some of the warmth from the sound. Makes the presentation more neuteral giving a tad more space to the instuments and performers . . . No doubt human voice benefits, however we are talking very small changes here, either presentation is acceptable to me.

Curently the O ring spacing is equal, one wonders if there might be any change by moving them together 'as one'? I will try it fore sure but feel thats getting a bit to pernicity and geekish?

For those with valve amps, the O ring damper is worth the few pence of outlay IMHO.

CJSF

Many thanks CJ, now to work out size to fit EL84's.

Rumours have it that using two equally spaced up the tube is best so that's 16 I require.

 

[CJSF]

After much deliberation I have come to the conclusion I prefer the single damping ring. Whilst the double ring is slightly less coloured, it is also a little dryer in its presentation, plus the single ring is more akin to the sound I remember of my 80's 'Foundation' sound.

But it does not stop there . . . how will the sound present if the two rings are pushed together, efectivly one 3mm ring, what will a slightly thicker ring sound like, where might the best position of the ring be on the tube . . . wow!!!! 'what does a silicon ring sound like', this is where I got to in the final stages of my products befor I closed it all down after Kathy died and I had a break down . . . One was testing all sorts of unlikly options and possibilities with interesting results and an open end, do I realy want to go there?

CJSF

 

[CJSF]

Mmm . . . an interesting experiment, two O rings in stead of the one per valve. The extra mass/damping created by the use of two O rings seems to remove some of the warmth from the sound. Makes the presentation more neuteral giving a tad more space to the instuments and performers . . . No doubt human voice benefits, however we are talking very small changes here, either presentation is acceptable to me.

Curently the O ring spacing is equal, one wonders if there might be any change by moving them together 'as one'? I will try it fore sure but feel thats getting a bit to pernicity and geekish?

For those with valve amps, the O ring damper is worth the few pence of outlay IMHO.

CJSF

Many thanks CJ, now to work out size to fit EL84's.

Rumours have it that using two equally spaced up the tube is best so that's 16 I require.

OK, been listening to the two O rings evenly spaced compared with them pushed together in the middle. There is no doubt in my mind, for my ears and my system set up, efectivly one centeral ring has a much more fluid sound, compare with the dry sound of the two rings apart. I can hear why people might like the dryer sound, very detailed and open, an enphasis towards the trebal end of the music spectrum, the modern way of doing things I believe? As I say, one centeral ring has a fluidity rather like the diferance between a pipe organ and a piano? I used to call this sound 'rubbery', now-a-days, fluid describes it much better. Got a couple more ideas to try based on what I have done in the past few days . . . I'm on the band-wagon again aint I . . . ? CJSF

 

[luckylion100]

really enjoyed reading. Thank you.

 

[CJSF]

Thank you for the kind words Luckylion 100.

Removed the two small sicon O-rings 1.5mmx 25mm od. I have not got anything in my stock near that od . . . oh **!!**!! my mind was (is) in gear. I have got some 3mmx53mm od??? originaly used them on some large diamiter output valves, they did not work for those big valves, dont know why but have a theory, the large valves I was testing had a pear shape about them, a strong rigid shape, so perhaps do not vibrate as much . . . or in the same way????

The valves I am working with are streight sided so prone to less rigidity vertivaly? We are talking miro movement here but the affects are there to be heard. So twist one large O-ring and double it over, rathere like a rubber band, it fits perfectly on the small valves I am working with, creating a double ring (2 rings) 25mmx 3mm thick huging about centeral on the valve glass. That is a much firmer hold and a considerable increas in mass damping, the energy of the valve being disipated in the silicon?

It works . . . obvious changes, the fluid sound is maintained but hints of the dryer edge that came from the two light weight rings evenly spaced. Best of both worlds, still more layers are audible. Again I say, these changes are small and have to be listend for, makes no differeance if all you want is background music. However I find I can get lost in the silky smooth detailed fluid presentation from my reincarnation of the 'Foundation sound' of the 80's.

All this has been achived this evening using Spotify, too much jumping up and down to queue up short samples on the TT. Which perhaps indicates just how good my Spotify works?

Now for a Horlicks session, with vinyle . . . not had one of those for a long time. Sadly no Hazel*kiss3* but happy memories and a box of tissues . . . ? By the way, thats something I had forgotten to mention all this damping has alowed my to reduce the volume and still get the same impact and pleasure, from 11 o'clock to 10 o'clock. The down side, yes there is a down side, I can hear bad recording better, just how bad they are, you do get some duffers on Spotify.

Ordered some single 25mm x 3mm O-rings, just a few pence each, see if the 'crossover' has any effect and what about the extra mass if evenly spaced . . . or perhaps 3 rings? , , , shut up and get the Horlicks on!

CJSF

 

[CJSF]

I have had the Foundation sound almost working now for a few sessions, what I did not expect was how it used to be in the 80's. One was able to adjust the verious component to extract that last 1% without up setting other settings and the sound as a whole grew and blossomed. As I say thats what we used to do, 1% is nothing but put a whole load together and then, the sum of the whole becomes significan.

Nothing verntured, nothing gained . . . as they say. I have been doing this 1% act for a good while, then gave up last year. Now back in the saddle, the O-ring thing grabed my fancy, easy to apply, cost vertualy nothing and to go back to stage one if it all went wrong was equaly easy. In all my testing and experimenting since the 70's, I always had an exscape route bact to point one, this was also very usefull as an evaluation/comparison tool.

Tonight was a first for me since Hazel passed away, it was hard, I had to fight my mind, oh yes, it has been giving me 'mind games' for months. There was no doubt the thicker, heavier doubled O-ring was doing a job, how much I did not know. The only way was to get the vinyle out, those special recordings that we used to listen to as refarances. Dont forget, I had two goes at this my late dear wife Kathy used to join in the evaluations, a womans ear hears things we fellows let pass. And my faithful a beloved partner of 20 years, Hazel who passed away in June.

So, lights dimmed, special recordings to hand and a coffee, dont drink Horlicks these day, part of my diet, so far loosing 5 stone. Proprius 'Antiphone Blues', church pipe organ and saxaphone, my Kathies favourit. Wow, the ambiounce the feeling, such delicacy I have not heard since the 80's. Classics for pleasure, Tallis Scholars with 'Allegri:Miserere', phew . . . Hazels and one of my favourit tracks in my whole collection, its that recod one would rescue in a fire. It was the 'walk in music at Hazels funeral', such significance, and how significant it was I was not prpared for.

My home in the 80's had a dedicated listening studio, right shape, right fittings and the right size, complete with a large Marine Aquarium, some people have swiming pools I had a Marine Aquarium. Certain recordings could destroy wall bouderies and celings, making the whole back garden a vertual auditorium. Lights out, just the aquarim give a relaxing light and motion from the fish . . . My LS35a's filled the space producing a total musical holagraph, I never heard it bettered in any of the other proffesional studios I had access to.

Tonight that 80's experiance was equaled! Walls disapeard, celings ceassed to exits the kitchine vanished, my garden rang with a sound I thought I would never hear again! The texture and ambiouance of the recording venue (the Chapel, Merton College, Oxford) is captured perfectly and reproduced, ghost like echos and harmonics, easily identified in position, in hight, width and depth.

Makes my choice favourit, Carol Kidd 'All my tomorrows' . . . look a little flat. Not so, She has a preseance that once again is hard to reproduce, there is an inner sound that is often lost, her reality is almost overwhelming.

All the coments are a bit OTT you may think, but they happened in my humble 12X12 foot listening room cramed with 'junk' some would say, in my 1882 Victorian cottage. All the years of work on the P5 TT, valve brand matching, working hard to keep the costs as low as possible, all brought to life tonight by a couple of cheap silicone sealing rings, I am still amazed, one is looking forward to getting out some of the other special quality vinyle. To think, I nearly sold the lot, vinyle and analogue hifi last year on the bassis, I was missing the mark, a close call or what.

CJSF

 

[MajorFubar]

I'm just simple old all washed out CJSF.

You'll never be old and washed out to some of us. Some of us know who you really are, and what your work gave the hifi industry, and how you soldiered on even though many said you were an idiot, only for you to be proved right.

 

[CJSF]

I'm just simple old all washed out CJSF.

You'll never be old and washed out to some of us. Some of us know who you really are, and what your work gave the hifi industry, and how you soldiered on even though many said you were an idiot, only for you to be proved right.

Thank you for those kind words MajourFubar. Under no presure these days, I get on and do my own thing un hindered.

As you will have gathered from my posts, I have a new lease of life in my musical enjoyment. The sound is back in full. Even in the simple and cheap world of valve damping rings, correctly applied mass appears to have its place. As always, trial and error, patience and trusting ones eares, won through, I went to bed in the early hours this morning, a happy, contented individual.

Thank you again, CJSF

 

[MajorFubar]

No problem CJ, you take care.

 

[CJSF]

. . . yes, a bit more thought and I started wondering if 'damping rings', could be applied to my Icon PS1.2 valve phono stage? First problem, the phono stage is a bit beried in a corner with loads of cables, answer, clear the corner, wave the duster about and get on with it. OK, PS1.2 box of trick in hand, cover removed, second problem, the valves are very small, I have no rings that will fit 24mm, answer, same as the amplifier, twist the 25mm rings in half, a tight fit but OK. All this is a problem these days, my hands are weak, the shakes makes control dificult sometimes . . . guess what, today is a bad shakes day, persiverance payed off!

I thought I had got the most out of the modified P5 . . . I still think I have, but passing the signal to the phono stage it gets messed up, so the damping rings revealed. We have the TT digging in and extracting loads of information, the main amplifier doing a good job, but it is amplifying what is poor information from the phono stage. The damping rings on the phono stage valves have sorted this, releasing a relaxed and flowing toe taping musicality, space, and detail, a natural sound I found hard to switch off . . . Still maintaining the 80's, 'Foundation sigature sound' with knobs on . . .

. . . I have things to do in the house, Nipper the dog is off the walls wanting feeding . . . but I want to listen to some more 'music'. Heading for another Horlicks (coffee) session tonight me thinks, I did not stop untill 3am yesterday (this morning).

The only thing left is a 'power supply', the P5 runs on 24v AC, acording to the 'wall wart'. At £200 or £300, is it worth the expence? I tried a Rega PS1 power supply 3/4 yeas ago and found a belt upgrade was as good and better value too. The latest Rega PS2 still uses 24v AC, I am tempted to leave well alone, then again, do the 12v ones realy make that much differance, especialy as I have no 45rpm recordings and 12v costs £300 with no garantees????

CJSF