busb
Well-known member
I guess you could work it out from my signature. Enjoying it more than the approximate 3000 pounds worth of kit I had before, but as a rule of thumb, yes, you get what you pay for and I can hear the difference between a 5000 pound setup and 10000 pound one.
steve_1979
Well-known member
Electro
Well-known member
lindsayt said:
You may well be correct but why do PMC quote these figures, it seems like a massive difference for only +/- 3db.
Available Finishes: Tiger Ebony, Rich Walnut, White SilkComplementary Products: Fact.8, Fact.3Crossover Frequency: 400Hz, 4kHzDimensions: H 1110mm (43.7”) + 25mm spikes x W 168mm (6.1”) + 100mm (3.2”) ingot feet x D 420mm (14.9”) + 23mm (0.9”) Ag terminalsDrive Units: LF 2 x fact 140mm (5.5”), MF 1 x fact 50mm (2.0”), HF 1 x fact 19mm (0.75”)Effective ATL™ Length: 3.3m (11ft)Frequency Response: 26Hz – 30kHzImpedance: 8 OhmsSensitivity: 84dB 1w 1mWeight: 26.0kg 57lbs ea.
hybridauth_Facebook_664715932
Well-known member
My system:
Amp £3600. I paid £1700 2nd hand/refurb with warranty.
cdp £1000. I paid £650 sale price
speakers and stand £1600. I paid £1400 haggled
dac, cable & interconnects £700. I paid £500 haggled
whole system brand new/rrp £6900. i paid £4450.
Amp £3600. I paid £1700 2nd hand/refurb with warranty.
cdp £1000. I paid £650 sale price
speakers and stand £1600. I paid £1400 haggled
dac, cable & interconnects £700. I paid £500 haggled
whole system brand new/rrp £6900. i paid £4450.
nopiano
Well-known member
The bit you highlight is a range. A response needs decibel limits, to indicate how much it deviates.Electro said:
It is ultimately a pointless game to compare specs. A bit like describing a work of art by saying "it's mostly yellow"! The PMC are fabulous speakers, and/but they aren't the sze of a garden shed!
Gaz37
Well-known member
Google "Matrix Hifi blind test"
To sum it up two systems were set up at a HiFi show, one was used budget kit that would cost $500 new with cheap cables all balanced on a folding chair, the second was $12k worth of high end kit and cables on proper isolation platforms.
38 people (who one would assume were hifi fanatics as they were at a hifi show) listened to both systems blind with the following results-
14 thought the cheap system sounded better
10 thought the expensive system sounded better
14 could not tell the difference
The placebo effect is amazing
To sum it up two systems were set up at a HiFi show, one was used budget kit that would cost $500 new with cheap cables all balanced on a folding chair, the second was $12k worth of high end kit and cables on proper isolation platforms.
38 people (who one would assume were hifi fanatics as they were at a hifi show) listened to both systems blind with the following results-
14 thought the cheap system sounded better
10 thought the expensive system sounded better
14 could not tell the difference
The placebo effect is amazing
Electro said:
I got the figures +/- 3 db figures from a bit of google research that anyone with a few minutes to spare could do. They came from a source I'd trust. They seem reasonable for a speaker with two 5.5" drivers that augment the bass extension with a 3.3m transmission line (TL).
As Nopiano quite rightly said, the manufacturers' 26hz figure means nothing without knowing how many dbs down it is and whether it's anechoic or "in room". If it's "in room" that's meaningless, unless you know where in the room it was measured and what sort of room we're talking about.
The -6 db figure for the Fact 12 is 33 hz.
The 26 hz figure quoted by PMC may be the - 9db or -12 db figure. Or it may be a -6 db figure with the speaker placed right in the corner of their test room for maximum bass boost.
It's a marketing figure. One that may bamboozle potential owners.
There are 3 specifications that give me more concern about the Fact 12's than FR figures. Would you like me to say what they are?
I think there are a couple of important lessons here.
1. if you're going to dismiss any component on the basis of a single set of specifications, make sure you are comparing like with like.
2. There's every chance that there are a number of £3k systems that will sound as good as or better than Gazzips £40k and £75k systems (especially if you're playing the hi-fi game by my rather lax rules).
second hand all the way,and as other people said its my only vice(my better half does not mind at all,as a lot of my friends are big gamblers)
system one. standard computer to marantz hd dac1(bought new 799euro)
primare i20...second hand 320euro to audiosmile kensai second hand 350.(new they were about 2000sterling)
second system...clearaudio emotion s/h 500euro,primare i30 s/h 750,primare cd/dvd player dvd26 s/h 300,primare tuner t20 s/h 200 euro...........to bowers and wilkins cm9 s/h 1250euro(soon to be sold)
so all in all massive savings on s/h market.roughly one third of retail and sometimes better,which i think is what i think is the 'fairer' price for the gear without the big mark ups of the retailers and vat and everything else.i would not have bought most of that gear new.
system one. standard computer to marantz hd dac1(bought new 799euro)
primare i20...second hand 320euro to audiosmile kensai second hand 350.(new they were about 2000sterling)
second system...clearaudio emotion s/h 500euro,primare i30 s/h 750,primare cd/dvd player dvd26 s/h 300,primare tuner t20 s/h 200 euro...........to bowers and wilkins cm9 s/h 1250euro(soon to be sold)
so all in all massive savings on s/h market.roughly one third of retail and sometimes better,which i think is what i think is the 'fairer' price for the gear without the big mark ups of the retailers and vat and everything else.i would not have bought most of that gear new.
Gazzip
Well-known member
Gazzip
Well-known member
lindsayt said:
Your rather lax rules on system cost do help you. Give it ten years and my system will probably be available second hand for £3K or under. Who's not comparing apples with apples?
chebby
Well-known member
chebby
Well-known member
Can't you and Lindsayt just get a room to compare them?
Scalford Hall Hotel seems to be popular.
Scalford Hall Hotel seems to be popular.
Gazzip
Well-known member
chebby said:
I don't even know why I am defending my system TBH. Not a day goes by when I don't regret spending all of that dollar on a fecking Hifi.... Could have paid off my mortgage years ago! *blush*
Exactly.Gazzip said:
Which comes back to my biggest point in this thread.
When comparing £10k (or £40k or £75k) systems to £3k systems it's impossible to say which will sound better as it all depends exactly what £10k or £40k system we're comparing to exactly what £3k - and to a lesser extent in what circumstances (room, music, personal preferences) they're being compared in.
In 10 years time I may well be recommending your £40k or £75k systems if they are available for £3k - on the basis of the sound quality per pound spent. I'd recommend them today if anyone could find them for £3k.
When it comes to dismissing a component on the basis of a single set of specifacations - eg FR range - it's important to compare apples with apples. As the example in this thread illustrates.
When it comes to comparing systems on the basis of cost it's almost impossible to compare apples with apples. Simply because hi-fi is such an imperfect market.
To put it another way. Hi-fi components are what they are. They will reproduce music on the basis of what they are. It doesn't make any difference to the component if the most recent sale of that item was for £50 or £12,000.
lindsayt said:
Equally, the internal components of each box don't care whether they are in a mass produced pressed/punched/folded aluminium box or a machined from billet work of art. A transformer doesn't mind whether it's procured in 100s or 10,000s. Only the price is affected.
The three Fact 12 specifications that cause me concern are:Gazzip said:
1 retail price - c £12,000
2 weight - 26 kgs per channel
3 Efficiency - 84 dbs (nominal 8 ohm load).
Brand new that's £460 per kg per channel.
Compare that to, for example, a £1500 pair of 2nd hand 75.7 kg Klipschorns. That's £20 per kg per channel.
26 kgs is lightweight for a speaker selling at £12,000.
£12,000 means they will depreciate a lot from new. They are a relatively recent model. Anyone buying them 2nd hand for £4000 can expect further depreciation.
84 db efficiency. The Fact 12's are 100 times less efficient at turning electrical energy into sound than Klipschorns. It's not so much the specification itself, but the causes of the specification that concern me. Are the moving parts of the Fact 12 too heavy? Have too much inertia? Are too poorly coupled to the air in the room?
Transient response. Dynamics. This is where highly efficient speakers like the K'horns excel and where inefficient speakers like the Fact 12's tend to struggle.
I totally agree Tom.TomSawyer said:
There are so many things that can affect the price of a component that have nothing, or almost nothing to do with how it sounds. Mass production vs batch production is only one of these many factors.
Gazzip said:
Gazzip, you don't need to defend your system to anyone. It's your system. Your life. Your money. Your decision.
I have, however been probing your statement that your £40k and £75k systems sound better than ANY £3k system.
Gazzip
Well-known member
Mf A3.2 cd and amp, proac 125, ecosse master, chord oddesey 4.
I've spent under 2k on my system, made tweaks along the way. My system actually outperformed a 10k electrocompaniet setup, but I'm not saying it's worth the same, I reckon I could balance the electrocompaniet to a point which I'm in the process of doing for a few bottles of vintage cognac, win win.
I've also balanced a friends arcam alpha 8 where it's better than a meridian 501/557. It's not just cables,it's synergy and it's taken me over 14 months to come to grips to the point where I find myself as a free independent hifi consultant with no qualifications, ie I would be at gcse standard hifi wise compared to some of the post grads on here lol
I've spent under 2k on my system, made tweaks along the way. My system actually outperformed a 10k electrocompaniet setup, but I'm not saying it's worth the same, I reckon I could balance the electrocompaniet to a point which I'm in the process of doing for a few bottles of vintage cognac, win win.
I've also balanced a friends arcam alpha 8 where it's better than a meridian 501/557. It's not just cables,it's synergy and it's taken me over 14 months to come to grips to the point where I find myself as a free independent hifi consultant with no qualifications, ie I would be at gcse standard hifi wise compared to some of the post grads on here lol
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