Combining Old Systems

[davedotco]

we are all always learning about this. If you take a look at my later posts you will see that I am totally in agreement about the importance of the power supply in the amp. This is what I class as the basics being done correctly.

Whilst I find myself agreeing in principle, I wonder at what point do you consider the that 'the basics are being done correctly'.

I often find myself raising this point, particularly at the lower end of the price structure. There are plenty of modern amplifiers, some at pretty low prices, that seem to go loud enough without obvious distortion yet fail to convince on all but the simplest recordings.

I have my own thoughts on which of the less expensive amplifiers do this correctly, to me it is the difference between decent hi-fi and mass market mid-fi and is at the center of my views on the importance of amplifiers and the way that they 'sound different'.

 

[Gazzip]

we are all always learning about this. If you take a look at my later posts you will see that I am totally in agreement about the importance of the power supply in the amp. This is what I class as the basics being done correctly.

Whilst I find myself agreeing in principle, I wonder at what point do you consider the that 'the basics are being done correctly'.

I often find myself raising this point, particularly at the lower end of the price structure. There are plenty of modern amplifiers, some at pretty low prices, that seem to go loud enough without obvious distortion yet fail to convince on all but the simplest recordings.

I have my own thoughts on which of the less expensive amplifiers do this correctly, to me it is the difference between decent hi-fi and mass market mid-fi and is at the center of my views on the importance of amplifiers and the way that they 'sound different'.

Power supplies and their complex conditioning requirements are often the first thing to be "Value Engineered" down to cut costs, with more emphasis from the manufacturer on stated average power output in Watts. Many will buy an amp based just on the stated power without realising that speakers requiring 400W from an amplifier to drive them may, on occasion draw 4000W from that same amplifier during a transient. This is a brief peak in draw, nano seconds in fact, but important nonetheless in allowing the speakers to deliver both headroom and scale. If the power supply is not up to delivering such peak draw "pre-cleaned" current from its limited 240V supply then the presentation will certainly suffer.

 

[Gazzip]

Sorry, forgot to make the point which is perhaps this is why some budget amplifiers don't really hit the mark, even though they appear to have the power requirements on paper.

 

[davedotco]

Sorry, forgot to make the point which is perhaps this is why some budget amplifiers don't really hit the mark, even though they appear to have the power requirements on paper.

You are telling me things that I have already written about many times on this forum, what I am trying to find out is where, in the spectrum of available product, you feel that the manufacturers 'get the basics right'.

I suggested the £1200pr PMC monoblocks as a low cost alternative to expensive Brystons for driving 89dB/watt PMCs. Surely in a home (rather than a studio) situation this is sufficient power, even allowing for decent levels, after all this equates to an SPL in excess of 112dB peak. Given the dynamic range of modern recordings, that is well over 100dB continuous, ie quite loud.

The question I am asking is that, given that capability, why would you spend more, surely given your views that amplifiers vary little, that would be pointless?

 

[Gazzip]

Sorry, forgot to make the point which is perhaps this is why some budget amplifiers don't really hit the mark, even though they appear to have the power requirements on paper.

You are telling me things that I have already written about many times on this forum, what I am trying to find out is where, in the spectrum of available product, you feel that the manufacturers 'get the basics right'.

I suggested the £1200pr PMC monoblocks as a low cost alternative to expensive Brystons for driving 89dB/watt PMCs. Surely in a home (rather than a studio) situation this is sufficient power, even allowing for decent levels, after all this equates to an SPL in excess of 112dB peak. Given the dynamic range of modern recordings, that is well over 100dB continuous, ie quite loud.

The question I am asking is that, given that capability, why would you spend more, surely given your views that amplifiers vary little, that would be pointless?

I don't think you can identify a point in the spectrum where manufacturers suddenly begin to get the basics right. Cost doesn't dictate this.

There are many amps less expensive than the Brystons that I could have purchased and that would have been just as good. However, as already stated I was buying in to warranty, (20 years), build quality, (tank), and the fact that they are used throughout the music industry in conjunction with PMC speakers.

I don't think that you are right about the power of the PMC amps in conjunction with MB2SE's for the peak loading issues as previously described. I think they would clip and possibly damage my £16k speakers, a risk I am not prepared to take.

 

[RopTop]

Thanks everyone for your help with this. I'm surprised that the thread promoted such debate, though I have certainly learned from it!

To pick from my original thread, of my existing components my preference is for the Denon/Marantz/Tannoy combination, so I'm relieved that it seems to coincide with the opinions of others.

I have listened to CDs recently, but not often. Therefore, I propose to keep the cdp on the equipment rack, but put the rest of the components into store for a couple of months (leaving just the amp/speakers/cdp/sonos connect) and see whether I miss them.

It also seems that the weakest link in the current set up is the speakers. My question is this - how much can I upgrade the speakers whilst being able to keep the Denon amp (which I don't think is too powerful), but would allow me to upgrade the amp in the future. From the feedback above, this would sound the most sensible order to do this. The speaker budget could stretch to £1,000 if I can upgrade for the long term with a similar amount for an amp in, say, 12m time.

Thanks again,

RT.

 

[Gazzip]

Thanks everyone for your help with this. I'm surprised that the thread promoted such debate, though I have certainly learned from it!

To pick from my original thread, of my existing components my preference is for the Denon/Marantz/Tannoy combination, so I'm relieved that it seems to coincide with the opinions of others.

I have listened to CDs recently, but not often. Therefore, I propose to keep the cdp on the equipment rack, but put the rest of the components into store for a couple of months (leaving just the amp/speakers/cdp/sonos connect) and see whether I miss them.

It also seems that the weakest link in the current set up is the speakers. My question is this - how much can I upgrade the speakers whilst being able to keep the Denon amp (which I don't think is too powerful), but would allow me to upgrade the amp in the future. From the feedback above, this would sound the most sensible order to do this. The speaker budget could stretch to £1,000 if I can upgrade for the long term with a similar amount for an amp in, say, 12m time.

Thanks again,

RT.

Hi RT. £1000 is an extremely competitive price point for speakers, with many great examples to choose from. I used to own Kef R300's and I still consider them to be one of the finest pair that I have owned. You could do a lot worse than stick them on to your audition list!

Infact there is an ex-demo pair on AV Land in Rosewood for £699 at the moment, and a pair on fleaBay "Make an Offer" in piano black for the same price.....

 

[nima]

Try to live with Philips/Denon/Tannoy for a while, that should make perfectly nice system. Then upgrade if and what you find necessary.

 

[lejockey]

with all due respect, I was answering a question on a forum, not writing a thesis on the audio signal chain. I stand by my point. If you want to muck about with the miniscule to the point of being inaudable differences that various different CD players make, then go ahead, be my guest. But a cheap CD player running through decent speakers will outperform a 10k cd player running through carp speakers.

Yes, if you put carp in you will get carp out, but we are well past the days of etching a groove onto a wax drum. The most important place to spend your money is the speakers, because they are the device that will degrade your sound the most.

 

[lejockey]

I agree, the speakers are by far the weakest link in any hifi chain. Decent speakers = decent hifi. All the rest is just tweaking that last 0.5%. Having said that. this works to a point, if you have speakers that need a lot of power to drive them, then they won't sound good without a powerful amp.

totally correct. Good advice. A man who understands his components.

But doesn't understand them very well, common enough.

To paraphrase Robert Harley, 'speakers are essentially passive devices, they can not improve the signal that is fed to them'

The signal being fed to the speakers is hugely important, supply a carp signal to great speakers, what do you get....... :?

Serious question.

with all due respect, I was answering a question on a forum, not writing a thesis on the audio signal chain. I stand by my point. If you want to muck about with the miniscule to the point of being inaudable differences that various different CD players make, then go ahead, be my guest. But a cheap CD player running through decent speakers will outperform a 10k cd player running through carp speakers.

Yes, if you put carp in you will get carp out, but we are well past the days of etching a groove onto a wax drum. The most important place to spend your money is the speakers, because they are the device that will degrade your sound the most

 

[davedotco]

I agree, the speakers are by far the weakest link in any hifi chain. Decent speakers = decent hifi. All the rest is just tweaking that last 0.5%. Having said that. this works to a point, if you have speakers that need a lot of power to drive them, then they won't sound good without a powerful amp.

totally correct. Good advice. A man who understands his components.

But doesn't understand them very well, common enough.

To paraphrase Robert Harley, 'speakers are essentially passive devices, they can not improve the signal that is fed to them'

The signal being fed to the speakers is hugely important, supply a carp signal to great speakers, what do you get....... :?

Serious question.

with all due respect, I was answering a question on a forum, not writing a thesis on the audio signal chain. I stand by my point. If you want to muck about with the miniscule to the point of being inaudable differences that various different CD players make, then go ahead, be my guest. But a cheap CD player running through decent speakers will outperform a 10k cd player running through carp speakers.

Yes, if you put carp in you will get carp out, but we are well past the days of etching a groove onto a wax drum. The most important place to spend your money is the speakers, because they are the device that will degrade your sound the most

Please do not take offense, I am genuinely interested in the views of people who have, one way or the other, moved off the mainstream in a very positive way.

Yes, very good digital playback is available quite cheaply these days but I remain, generally speaking, dissatisfied with inexpensive real time players, there is a lack of focus and control that I find hard to get past.

However this is peripheral to my main point, that the modern 'way' of putting all the emphasis on the speakers is just as wrongheaded as some of the 'front end first' excesses of the Linn/Naim era, this is just my experience.

I often recommend and 'lobby' for the use of better amplifiers in pretty much any system, I absolutely believe it to be crucial. Sure chopping and changing a bunch of mainstream amplifiers does little to improve the sound but even with modestly priced speakers, the better ones anyway, a really good amplifier makes the world of difference.