Chinese clones which one to choose?

[matthewpianist]

Have we always (or ever) made consistently good quality examples of anything in the UK?

Cars get plenty of mentions in this thread, and I have two words on that matter - British Leyland. There may be some people who were forever put off British made cars by bad experiences with Allegros and the like. Some of the Fords and Vauxhalls made here were rust buckets, and the reliability of Peugeots made in the UK was hardly faultless. Yet there's plenty of drivers enjoying good build quality and reliability from vehicles produced by Toyota here in Derby, and Nissan in Sunderland.

There has been plenty of hi-fi made in the UK with questionable safety and consistency, yet there's huge numbers of people enjoy high quality kit made in Salisbury and Southend-On-Sea (for example).

There's good and bad examples of manufacturing anywhere, and that includes a full range from China. Pearl River is the biggest piano factory in the world and makes affordable ranges for a number of top-flight German manufacturers, including Steinway (Essex pianos) and Schimmel (Fridolin-Schimmel) instruments. They take instructions from their partners and manufacture to the required standards - not as exacting as those met with a bigger budget at brand-owned factories in New York, Hamburg and Braunschweig, but offering something very worthwhile for the asking price. At the same time, some truly awful instruments come out of China, often dressed with old German and British names which are now simply labels.

It's the same in hi-fi. For every poor quality clone, there's something very good from IAG or The Audio Partnership (Cambridge Audio), for example. Denon has stuff made in Vietnam which still meets the build quality you'd expect from the brand...

 

[Jasonovich]

And? If the Chinese will blatantly copy another manufacturer’s design, how can you trust them to gain genuine CE certification for every product they make? How do we know it’s genuine?

It isn't genuine it's a clone based on old blue print obsolete designs of the trusted brands. If you visit the AliExpress portal and go to the suppliers URL address; it's transparent but not always. You can read about the accreditations, the history of the company. Many provide information about the quality of the components used in their product, where the components have been sourced, what relays, transistors, the type of capacitors they're using or if the parts have been sourced from the UK, Germany, Japan etc (revenue for Blighty!).

It's easy to be judgemental because they're Chinese and sometimes convenient because we can't be bothered doing the extra leg work.

How do I know CE certification is genuine?
You may be right and it is always easier to assume that the Chinese are not operating above board. I would say look at the company's history, read customer comments. AliExpress is weird all the 5 stars are at the top, you need to scroll down near to the bottom to get to the less favourable comments.

Sure, there's stuff out there, one needs to be careful about that. I operate on a folly when it comes to HiFi, nothing ventured, nothing gained and this shouldn't be seen as carte blanche for others to follow, if I choose to do it, so be it, it's on my head. You know it's free will, everyone can make their own choices.

I'm not here to condone Chinese manufacturers. I do know most of these products have been produced by Breeze Audio, I have had two of their products in the past and these have been of excellent quality.

The AliExpress portal may not be as reputable as Amazon or eBay but they are the 'Face of China' and the consumer can fall under the auspices of PayPal, should there be a grievance against the supplier.

 

[Jasonovich]

I think we're sailing a bit close to forum rules in geopolitical terms. People used to criticise Korean cars in terms of them being characterless appliances, but Hyundai's N division would disagree (as would the UK motoring press).

Things are always evolving, perhaps there's some parallelism with Darwinism, over a course of time, lessons have been learnt with quality control and better technology has furthered the manufacturing process.

I know it's a bit ironic me saying this having parked my butt on the laurels of the Chinese HiFi industry but there's room for everyone, I do honestly think if our government was serious about the manufacturing industries and prepared to put some investment and some research into where it's needed. I think we can do great things.

 

[davidf]

It isn't genuine it's a clone based on old blue print obsolete designs of the trusted brands.

Very nicely put to support your liking for cheap Chinese audio. That translates to illegal copy of an original design (many of which are still used, or followed very closely) from an existing manufacturer. It’s a copy.

 

[Friesiansam]

It isn't genuine it's a clone based on old blue print obsolete designs of the trusted brands.

It may use the old trusted brand's design but, that does not mean it uses components of similar quality or, that it is assembled to the same standards. Then there's the point made by davidf, above.

 

[davidf]

It's easy to be judgemental because they're Chinese and sometimes convenient because we can't be bothered doing the extra leg work.

How do I know CE certification is genuine?
You may be right and it is always easier to assume that the Chinese are not operating above board. I would say look at the company's history, read customer comments. AliExpress is weird all the 5 stars are at the top, you need to scroll down near to the bottom to get to the less favourable comments.

I’m not being judgemental purely because they’re Chinese. But, we know how brazen the Chinese are in ripping off other manufacturer’s products, which enhances their economy while destroying other country’s economies in the process. They don’t care.

Reading some manufacturer’s history on a website that encourages illegal practices doesn’t really fill me with any confidence.

 

[davidf]

I know it's a bit ironic me saying this having parked my butt on the laurels of the Chinese HiFi industry but there's room for everyone, I do honestly think if our government was serious about the manufacturing industries and prepared to put some investment and some research into where it's needed. I think we can do great things.

I expected Brexit to be our chance to start properly fending for ourselves and not relying on the rest of the world (ie, China), but as always with our lazy ass Government, they’ve been more interested in creating wealth for themselves with their little “in-house” schemes and sub-contracting practices.

 

[davidf]

Things are always evolving, perhaps there's some parallelism with Darwinism, over a course of time, lessons have been learnt with quality control and better technology has furthered the manufacturing process.

But do they? If you approach a Chinese OEM and ask them to make so many of (insert here), they’ll do it, but unless you watch over their shoulders, they’ll be cutting corners like no one’s business in order to make more than the agreed profit. They may also make extra to sell elsewhere.

Those that do evolve, or those that do things properly from the off give us brands like Lumin and Silent Angel, but they’re independent companies, not OEM manufacturers who will make anything you tell them to, regardless of legal ownership or rights.

 

[Jasonovich]

Very nicely put to support your liking for cheap Chinese audio. That translates to illegal copy of an original design (many of which are still used, or followed very closely) from an existing manufacturer. It’s a copy

Check my signature, there's a large presence of branded products from China, Germany, France, Japan, UK and US. some of it is cheap but most of it is quite pricy.

You're making an assumption it is illegal, you don't know that, I don't know that but if it helps, write to the manufacturer and ask them directly!
The UK Customs allow these products to be imported to these shores, surely if it wasn't above board, these would be confiscated!

 

[Jasonovich]

It may use the old trusted brand's design but, that does not mean it uses components of similar quality or, that it is assembled to the same standards. Then there's the point made by davidf, above.

Here's the specs The English may be a little difficult to digest in parts.

product description
We combine the needs of the majority of players to launch a NAC152+NAP200 combined amplifier version, allowing players to get better quality at a lower price! SK version features Complete NAP200 & NAC152XS circuit Our team has a general re-enactment version of the NAP200 & NAC152XS for reading, with a complete circuit schematic, non-online a large number of incomplete circuit works comparable! Physical double single independent channel Dual independent channels, physically 100% independent, there is no light left and right channel crosstalk problem, the sound field positioning will be extremely accurate. Add protection circuit The original machine has not been added to the protection device due to cost or other reasons. Our team fits the customer's needs and joins the device for better protection.
NAC152 part
The circuit source of this machine is to the naim pre-stage NAC152, the line is exactly the same as the original machine; time aligned filter -> volume -> gain board; 729 time circuit with 2 levels of buffer. Original machine parameters, original line; mono mode design, physical 100% separation, left and right channels are not crosstalk, sound field positioning is very accurate! Core components: The transistor uses 2N5087/2N5089 used by the original machine; WIMA capacitor, Tan capacitor, 718 military 1% metal film resistor. Sound: The intermediate frequency is especially easy to get into the ear, high and low frequency and dynamic is very suitable! Coupling explanation about electrolytic capacitor We found that not all models of naim use tantalum capacitors for coupling. In order to find out that we have purchased a NAC112 preamplage earlier than NAC152, we chose NAC112 preamp because this preamp is electrolysis. Capacitor is coupled, not tantalum capacitor. After the pre-stage, we carefully compare it with the original NAC152 preamp. At the same time, we also invited several industry professionals to audition. After repeated audition and comparison, we finally concluded that The NAC112 with electrolytic capacitors is more warm and has a better musical taste. The NAC152 with coupling of tantalum capacitors is more straightforward and has lower sound. The sound of NAC112 is better because of the combination of NAC112 and NAC152. The circuit of the previous stage is basically the same. The biggest difference is that one tantalum capacitor is not used, so we also tried to use our electrolytic capacitors in the front stage of the NAC152 to make the coupling. The conclusion is the same as the previous two original machines. The use of electrolytic capacitors for coupling sounds is warmer and the flavour is better, so we used electrolytic electricity in this version of NAC152. Coupling, compared to everyone will definitely like the sound charm brought by the new NAC152 preamp
NAP200 part
Naim NAP200 is the high-end rear stage, the original machine is priced at tens of thousands, the machine has a very beautiful sound, control, low frequency, analytical charm is very good! This replica version uses the same circuit and the same transistor as the original machine. It adopts a better layout and better grounding, so that the parameters, noise, charm, control and resolution of the board completely surpass the original machine. use Naim NAP200 rear-end original parameter line, the last stage uses 4 new 1% paired Sankn 2SC2922 sibling output, with absolute toxic sound The powerful transformer provides 300 watts of transient power. Output power: 75w/8 ohms Transformer power: 300VA Input impedance: 18 K ohms Frequency response: -3 dB 2 Hz and 65 kHz Gain: + 29 dB Minimum load: 2Ω
Input voltage: 115 V or 230 V (tell us the voltage you need) Dimensions: 430mm * 310mm * 70mm (W * D * H) Package weight: about 9.5 kg Version with remote control:10kg This package includes: NAC152 & NAP200 Finished Machine x1 (SK version) Note: By default, it does not include an AC input cable
New version
In response to user needs, we have launched a new version! On this basis, changes will be made, plus 3Way RCA input (4 Way IN) and remote control version The remote control does not contain batteries, please buyers to buy at a nearby store

 

[Jasonovich]

But do they? If you approach a Chinese OEM and ask them to make so many of (insert here), they’ll do it, but unless you watch over their shoulders, they’ll be cutting corners like no one’s business in order to make more than the agreed profit. They may also make extra to sell elsewhere.

Those that do evolve, or those that do things properly from the off give us brands like Lumin and Silent Angel, but they’re independent companies, not OEM manufacturers who will make anything you tell them to, regardless of legal ownership or rights.

My friend I don't disagree with what you say, it may be a broad brush but in the essence there's some truth.

 

[Jasonovich]

I expected Brexit to be our chance to start properly fending for ourselves and not relying on the rest of the world (ie, China), but as always with our lazy ass Government, they’ve been more interested in creating wealth for themselves with their little “in-house” schemes and sub-contracting practices.

Yeah 100%

 

[Friesiansam]

You're making an assumption it is illegal, you don't know that, I don't know that but if it helps, write to the manufacturer and ask them directly!
The UK Customs allow these products to be imported to these shores, surely if it wasn't above board, these would be confiscated!

Firstly, you can’t seriousely believe, that if a Chinese manufacturer is breaking copyright or patent laws, that it might tell you so if you ask.

Secondly, HM Customs don’t have the facilities or manpower, to check everything for all potential infringements.

 

[Jasonovich]

Firstly, you can’t seriousely believe, that if a Chinese manufacturer is breaking copyright or patent laws, that it might tell you so if you ask.

Secondly, HM Customs don’t have the facilities or manpower, to check everything for all potential infringements.

Nope but no harm in asking! 🙀

Actually they do check. I know this because my other half works in the civil service and some Chinese manufacturers are black listed but agree with you regarding resources, there is a shortage which is likely to impact on their effectiveness to deliver a service.

 

[Witterings]

write to the manufacturer and ask them directly!

Oh yes, we're so glad you asked us, we are in breach of copyright and as you've so kindly pointed it out we'll stop doing it and hand over the royalties / licence fee that's due to the company and we promise we won't do it again .... yeah, right .... what a complete waste of time and energy that'd be

 

[WayneKerr]

This all reminds me of this Top Gear classic from some years ago.
This:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1a3FfPOALA
and this:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=925l3ICmiiQ

 

[WayneKerr]

Cocked up the links but I'm sure you'll catch my drift

 

[Jasonovich]

I changed my mind, why do I need an amp for Christmas, Coo Coo Clocks are far more useful!

Here's Jason

 

[Al ears]

I changed my mind, why do I need an amp for Christmas, Coo Coo Clocks are far more useful!

Here's Jason

View attachment 5722

I think that's enough on this thread.

 

[twinkletoes]

That is ignorant nonsense frankly!

Chinese built Tesla's offer better build quality than their US counterparts.

Apple, whatever your views on the company and their products, are high quality and mostly built in China. As are many Android phones.

China's EV manufacturers are now producing cars that easily rival their Japanese and European counterparts.

Chinese contract manufacturers are able to build to any standard the client requires.

To label Chinese manufacturered products as "cheap for a reason" is just lazy stereotyping at best!!!

"Chinese contract manufacturers are able to build to any standard the client requires"

this is you most important sentence here, on the whole I agree with you. BUT only when they have large a client behind them, auditing and checking there work and factory's.

When they're making things for themselves this then becomes a problem as your relying on them to to QC themselves. When I see things on Ali ill assume they dont have the same level of QC and you buy at your own risk, problem thats dont initially manifest can do later, eg they have used counterfeit capacitors, resistors and so? And like bearings these are very hard to verify that they actually real, no big problem with bearings they just wear out quicker, electrical, well that could cause death at the very worst.

I work with china everyday designing toys and it’s a massive massive problem that we are constantly chasing are tails on. It's akin to asking child to do something turn your back and they will be trying do something else. IF they can cut corners most of the factories will.

Bottom Line is you don't know where these are coming from and its thats simple. Again OP buy at your risk.

 

[Friesiansam]

I think that's enough on this thread.

BOO!

 

[Jasonovich]

Guys we had a real interesting debate. I am genuinely going through a moral dilemma.
I decided to make a bidding on eBay for Naim Nait 5i Integrated Amplifier with remote.
Wish me luck 🍀😊

 

[WayneKerr]

Guys we had a real interesting debate. I am genuinely going through a moral dilemma.
I decided to make a bidding on eBay for Naim Nait 5i Integrated Amplifier with remote.
Wish me luck 🍀😊

I'm gonna bid against ya

 

[Al ears]

BOO!

Proceed then but anything that exceeds forum rules will be deleted, as is the norm.

 

[Jasonovich]

I'm gonna bid against ya

Noooooooooo