Cheap systems....

[Al ears]

Sorry Topping but I believe demos are essential. If you buy blind, based on reviews alone, it often goes pear shaped. The amount of people who mess up because they don't demo is staggering.

Sorry, amps do have their own signature. Compare the sonic characteristics between a midrange Marantz and a entry-level Cyrus (roughly the same price) and there's a distinct difference, especially with existing speakers. If one sonic size fits all, dealers would only sell one make.

I'd agree but he is convinced everyone would be better off buying cheap amps and DACs from China with no auditioning and limited returns possibility......
Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.......
I guess, if you're talking really cheap amps, then maybe they do all sound the same i.e. rubbish!

 

[Jasonovich]

I'd agree but he is convinced everyone would be better off buying cheap amps and DACs from China with no auditioning and limited returns possibility......
Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.......
I guess, if you're talking really cheap amps, then maybe they do all sound the same i.e. rubbish!

It's absolutely daft to say amps sound the same. Class A sounds very different to Class AB, both sound very different to Class D.
No need for blind test for the above.
Blind tests are never perfect. The human brain don't work very well if one of your senses is removed, not unless you were born blind. Not sure if there is a better alternative. Possibly better to listen in groups in isolation?

Even amps of the same class will have their own sonic signature.
Volume matching the amps is sensible place to start when making comparisons between amps but that's only part of it, there's also the dynamics, lows, highs and midrange.

Hifi use to consists of audiophiles and musicphiles and now there's a new tribe of 'enthusiasts', called Allsoundthesameplacebophiles. 😂🤣

 

[ToppingSMSL]

Sorry Topping but I believe demos are essential. If you buy blind, based on reviews alone, it often goes pear shaped. The amount of people who mess up because they don't demo is staggering.

Sorry, amps do have their own signature. Compare the sonic characteristics between a midrange Marantz and a entry-level Cyrus (roughly the same price) and there's a distinct difference, especially with existing speakers. If one sonic size fits all, dealers would only sell one make.

I cannot agree. Reviews for DACs are 100% pointless as is demoing them for the reasons I stated earlier. amps are similar although their power and gain are important to consider.

But you just cannot volume match properly in a demo which makes them pointless.

 

[davidf]

I cannot agree.

You don't have to agree - forums are for expressing opinions and experiences.

 

[plastic penguin]

I'd agree but he is convinced everyone would be better off buying cheap amps and DACs from China with no auditioning and limited returns possibility......
Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.......
I guess, if you're talking really cheap amps, then maybe they do all sound the same i.e. rubbish!

😂

Concur.

 

[plastic penguin]

You don't have to agree - forums are for expressing opinions and experiences.

If he had his way, he would like to see all high street dealers close. That's so bad for so many reasons.

We'd all be walking around like hi-fi daleks, repeating: "Internet, Internet, Internet. Shops closed, shops closed, exterminate...."

 

[ToppingSMSL]

You don't have to agree - forums are for expressing opinions and experiences.

And I explained why I do not agree

 

[plastic penguin]

And I explained why I do not agree

Yep, certainly are entitled to your opinion, no issues there. But don't knock others who don't agree with you. I'd rather go with the tried and tested route. I've purchased blind before (ex-dem Electrocompaniet CDP) and hated it. By contrast, I purchased my Exposure CDP and love it. This just demonstrates what a gamble buying online is, sometimes "heads you win" and other times it's "tails you lose."

That's why I always recommend a demo before parting with your hard earned. The considerations are many, not just whether it appeals straight away: Can you live with that sonic trait or is it an instant impact sound? I'd rather a slow burner, one that grows on you over a period of time. That's why I keep my boxes so long.

 

[RoA]

One can put together a fantastic sounding Hifi for a grand. Obviously, buying s/h will go far, far further and open up options (and possible complications). Even if buying new there is some interesting stuff around. I'd probably get some Klipsch the Fives, now heavily discounted and a Wiim streamer of some sort. That's around £700.

Future add-on's could be either a CD player, TT or/and small sub.

It'll do music and movies with some added style.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

Yep, certainly are entitled to your opinion, no issues there. But don't knock others who don't agree with you. I'd rather go with the tried and tested route. I've purchased blind before (ex-dem Electrocompaniet CDP) and hated it. By contrast, I purchased my Exposure CDP and love it. This just demonstrates what a gamble buying online is, sometimes "heads you win" and other times it's "tails you lose."

That's why I always recommend a demo before parting with your hard earned. The considerations are many, not just whether it appeals straight away: Can you live with that sonic trait or is it an instant impact sound? I'd rather a slow burner, one that grows on you over a period of time. That's why I keep my boxes so long.

All I'm doing is trying to emphasis that you cannot compare DAC sound at a dealer - it's impossible to volume match and their frequency responses will be the same. Therefore the placebo effect and biases will be the overriding factor in your decision making at the dealer.

 

[plastic penguin]

All I'm doing is trying to emphasis that you cannot compare DAC sound at a dealer - it's impossible to volume match and their frequency responses will be the same. Therefore the placebo effect and biases will be the overriding factor in your decision making at the dealer.

The problem is you are banging on about Dacs. No one else has mentioned anything on this thread about standalone Dacs. I agree that Dacs, around the same price point, all sound similar, but compare a £300 Dac to a 2k Dac, there should be an audible difference.

Amps & CDPs will have their own character: you can have a valve CDP, like a Vincent, which will be different sounding to an Arcam, or any other mainstream CDP. Exactly the same with amps.

 

[Gray]

....compare a £300 Dac to a 2k Dac, there should be an audible difference.

Would be good to see a dealer offer blind tests of such.
Got a feeling it would prove to be more beneficial to the consumer than the retailer though 🤔

 

[Dave_]

I agree that Dacs, around the same price point, all sound similar, but compare a £300 Dac to a 2k Dac, there should be an audible difference.

I'd bet good money that you or anyone else wouldn't be able to tell a £300 and £2k DAC apart under blind test conditions.

 

[Gray]

I'd bet good money that you or anyone else wouldn't be able to tell a £300 and £2k DAC apart under blind test conditions.

I would expect a (subtle) difference - but I certainly wouldn't bet on the preferred model....regardless of any £1700 difference.

 

[manicm]

I'd bet good money that you or anyone else wouldn't be able to tell a £300 and £2k DAC apart under blind test conditions.

I'd bet good money you would.

 

[plastic penguin]

I'd bet good money that you or anyone else wouldn't be able to tell a £300 and £2k DAC apart under blind test conditions.

I bet you would. The biggest question is whether the improvement is worth the extra outlay.

 

[matthewpianist]

There's an implication here, that auditioning is the reason for using a dedicated specialist dealer. Yes, a demonstration is the idea, but if you don't have such a dealer you can get to, there's still value in building a relationship with one you trust, and where distance purchasing isn't simply a lottery. Specialist advice, supported by working knowledge and experience, remains invaluable, and can also enable home demonstrations etc. It also gives access to brands that aren't so widely available - Rega, for example, who don't allow online sales of anything above the io, P1, P2 and Kytes.

 

[Jasonovich]

There's an implication here, that auditioning is the reason for using a dedicated specialist dealer. Yes, a demonstration is the idea, but if you don't have such a dealer you can get to, there's still value in building a relationship with one you trust, and where distance purchasing isn't simply a lottery. Specialist advice, supported by working knowledge and experience, remains invaluable, and can also enable home demonstrations etc. It also gives access to brands that aren't so widely available - Rega, for example, who don't allow online sales of anything above the io, P1, P2 and Kytes.

It really is a good point you made, especially if you're new to HiFi, you can seek advice remotely with a specialist dealer, who will help guide you towards making the correct purchase decision.

Yes of course, he's there to shift units but he's or she, knowledgeable and why pass it on when essentially, he's giving you free advice. You can take his advice and weigh this against the opinions of the posters on this forum.
Also with dealers you're allowed to mention cables and DACs without rebuke 🙂

 

[ToppingSMSL]

It's fine if you like to have a relationship of trust with a dealer but for me that doesn't feel necessary. I'm quite happy to save money by purchasing online or second hand rather than pay dealer markups. Especially when we're looking at "cheap systems" as this thread title states.

 

[Gray]

The biggest question is whether the improvement is worth the extra outlay.

Or whether any difference is actually an improvement.

 

[Gray]

I dare say that many know at least as much about a potential purchase as any dealer - except (maybe) for the all-important sound.
And that's where a dealer can become essential - as the home loan provider.

Rather than advice from a salesperson, I reckon that a home loan is all the guidance many will need.

Of course I'm not talking about the type of person that comes on the forum asking whether he should buy new speaker cables, because his are 10 years old.
That type need advice....(some serious advice).

 

[plastic penguin]

Or whether any difference is actually an improvement.

Of course, there is always that possibility.

My DacMagic isn't as good when I use it to play CDs, using the Exposure as transport. There's a drop off in SQ. But when I use it in conjunction with the Bluray, there's a minor improvement, likewise with a streaming service on the TV.

 

[Dave_]

Rather than advice from a salesperson, I reckon that a home loan is all the guidance many will need.

That's their only value if you ask me.

I certainly don't value their opinion, or so called experience.... Particularly if they're the kind of dealer that stocks and/or pushes hifi cables and other BS accessories

 

[plastic penguin]

That's their only value if you ask me.

I certainly don't value their opinion, or so called experience.... Particularly if they're the kind of dealer that stocks and/or pushes hifi cables and other BS accessories

Yep, agreed. Ultimately, though, it's down to us to sort the wheat from the chaff. Either way, the dealer will make a profit.