The recent debates on this forum and others about PC/Mac streaming bit-perfect data (eg lossless music files) into DACs reminded me of the debates in the early 2000s about digital vs. analogue photography; I finally ditched all my film gear in favour of digital cameras, then photographic film production has contracted very significantly and only really caters for a niche market now.... I wonder how long before Hi Fi manufacturers stop making CD Transports? Discuss!
CD Transports going the way of photographic film?
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Interesting point, and not without parallels. After all, some day digital cameras will be able to produce pictures as good as those available from film, too...
There's basically only a couple of manufacturers who make the transports. It was principally Sony and Philips, but I think Philips has sold its plant to another company.
Hifi manufacturers such as Marantz are using DVD drives now.
Hifi manufacturers such as Marantz are using DVD drives now.
chebby
Well-known member
I agree with Andrew.
As a keen photographer, I enjoy the benefits of film and digital photography. In the same way I enjoy vinyl LPs on my Rega as well as streaming digital music from my laptop via a DAC.
I think the analogy equating CD transports with 'analogue' film photography is faulty. CD is digital. Perhaps it would be more accurate to view CD transports and streaming from computers as two different generations of digital replay.
Film photography has not yet had it's sunset flypast....
(Contax T2 point & shoot with B&W film)
As a keen photographer, I enjoy the benefits of film and digital photography. In the same way I enjoy vinyl LPs on my Rega as well as streaming digital music from my laptop via a DAC.
I think the analogy equating CD transports with 'analogue' film photography is faulty. CD is digital. Perhaps it would be more accurate to view CD transports and streaming from computers as two different generations of digital replay.
Film photography has not yet had it's sunset flypast....
(Contax T2 point & shoot with B&W film)
Andrew Everard:Interesting point, and not without parallels. After all, some day digital cameras will be able to produce pictures as good as those available from film, too...
The general consensus of opinion is that the latest high megapixal quality digital cameras already surpass that of 35mm film already, but not that of larger film formats...........
The general consensus of opinion is that the latest high megapixal quality digital cameras already surpass that of 35mm film already, but not that of larger film formats...........
MENISCUS:The general consensus of opinion is that the latest high megapixal quality digital cameras already surpass that of 35mm film already, but not that of larger film formats...........
Then the general consensus is wrong. They're not even close.
Then the general consensus is wrong. They're not even close.
Great photo, Chebby. How come no matter how much money and time I threw at the hobby I could never take photos like that?
chebby
Well-known member
MENISCUS:
Andrew Everard:Interesting point, and not without parallels. After all, some day digital cameras will be able to produce pictures as good as those available from film, too...
The general consensus of opinion is that the latest high megapixal quality digital cameras already surpass that of 35mm film already, but not that of larger film formats...........
One of those arguments I leave to people who insist there can only be one best way of doing something.
People who live in a "this vs that" world and only feel right using what they are told has 'won' by the most people.
My camera bag has room for both a digital and a film camera.
Andrew Everard:Interesting point, and not without parallels. After all, some day digital cameras will be able to produce pictures as good as those available from film, too...
The general consensus of opinion is that the latest high megapixal quality digital cameras already surpass that of 35mm film already, but not that of larger film formats...........
One of those arguments I leave to people who insist there can only be one best way of doing something.
People who live in a "this vs that" world and only feel right using what they are told has 'won' by the most people.
My camera bag has room for both a digital and a film camera.
chebby
Well-known member
Tarquinh:
Great photo, Chebby. How come no matter how much money and time I threw at the hobby I could never take photos like that?
Thanks. I just got lucky that day courtesy of the local Air-Sea Rescue squadron doing a flypast the very same time I was walking along the sea-front.
I carry a camera or cameras everywhere with me even to and from work or the shops. You never know what might happen.
Same camera (Contax T2) different film, almost the same place, different day, different sky....
Great photo, Chebby. How come no matter how much money and time I threw at the hobby I could never take photos like that?
Thanks. I just got lucky that day courtesy of the local Air-Sea Rescue squadron doing a flypast the very same time I was walking along the sea-front.
I carry a camera or cameras everywhere with me even to and from work or the shops. You never know what might happen.
Same camera (Contax T2) different film, almost the same place, different day, different sky....
Trefor Patten
Well-known member
MegapixEl meniscus, but apart from that, yes, the latest Kodak sensor and the Leica S series is in advance of 35mm and even medium format film.The fact is the whole analogue/digital argument arises from digital conpressed music, or at least that which was not recorded at a high enough sampling rateor with a wide enough dynamic range. ÿThe analogy here is that if you compare early digital cameras with,say, 1600 ISO print film, digital may look superior, but compare it to 25 ISO Kodachrome and there is no contest - film is better.
Now, take a 24bit 192khz or better still 24bit 384khz and I defy anyone to find an analogue recording which is as realistic, let alone better.
CD players sound as good as they do because of error correction. If you took the signal 'as is' from the laser reader it would sound very coarse indeed, possibly with a lot of clicks and pops where data has been missed. ÿNow stream that data into computer memory while checking it as you go along and you will have a better, that is more accurate, stream of data. Read that back afterwards and you do not have problems of vibration, stray light etc, etc hitting the disc - there is no disc. On link in the chain has been removed, Less distortion of the original signal. We should welcome it. Not bemoan the death of the CD player.
ÿ
I keep my language learning recordings and comedy at a lower bitrate than my music because a joke does not have to be hi-fi to be funny. This leaves more space for music where however good compression codecs may get, uncompressed signals are better. When you can get hold of ÿhigher bitrate recordings, (than those on CD) better still.ÿ
Now, take a 24bit 192khz or better still 24bit 384khz and I defy anyone to find an analogue recording which is as realistic, let alone better.
CD players sound as good as they do because of error correction. If you took the signal 'as is' from the laser reader it would sound very coarse indeed, possibly with a lot of clicks and pops where data has been missed. ÿNow stream that data into computer memory while checking it as you go along and you will have a better, that is more accurate, stream of data. Read that back afterwards and you do not have problems of vibration, stray light etc, etc hitting the disc - there is no disc. On link in the chain has been removed, Less distortion of the original signal. We should welcome it. Not bemoan the death of the CD player.
ÿ
I keep my language learning recordings and comedy at a lower bitrate than my music because a joke does not have to be hi-fi to be funny. This leaves more space for music where however good compression codecs may get, uncompressed signals are better. When you can get hold of ÿhigher bitrate recordings, (than those on CD) better still.ÿ
chebby
Well-known member
Trefor Patten:....because a joke does not have to be hi-fi to be funny.
Well....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSINO6MKtco
Well....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSINO6MKtco
John Duncan
Well-known member
Andrew Everard:MENISCUS:The general consensus of opinion is that the latest high megapixal quality digital cameras already surpass that of 35mm film already, but not that of larger film formats...........
Then the general consensus is wrong. They're not even close.
Except at 25600 ISO...
Then the general consensus is wrong. They're not even close.
Except at 25600 ISO...
John Duncan
Well-known member
MENISCUS:Ah, good to see that Luddites are alive and well............
I hope you no mean me, sir. I am firmly in the digital camp...
I hope you no mean me, sir. I am firmly in the digital camp...
MENISCUS:
Andrew Everard:Interesting point, and not without parallels. After all, some day digital cameras will be able to produce pictures as good as those available from film, too...
The general consensus of opinion is that the latest high megapixal quality digital cameras already surpass that of 35mm film already, but not that of larger film formats...........
i work with lots of photographers, and it's true they pretty much all use digital these days for the convenience and cost savings, speed, being able to look at captures rather than polaroids etc.
But the truth is that film still has far more life than digital which is still clinical comparatively.
Andrew Everard:Interesting point, and not without parallels. After all, some day digital cameras will be able to produce pictures as good as those available from film, too...
The general consensus of opinion is that the latest high megapixal quality digital cameras already surpass that of 35mm film already, but not that of larger film formats...........
i work with lots of photographers, and it's true they pretty much all use digital these days for the convenience and cost savings, speed, being able to look at captures rather than polaroids etc.
But the truth is that film still has far more life than digital which is still clinical comparatively.
JoelSim:i work with lots of photographers, and it's true they pretty much all use digital these days for the convenience and cost savings, speed, being able to look at captures rather than polaroids etc.
But the truth is that film still has far more life than digital which is still clinical comparatively.
Ah, the parallels keep on growing...
But the truth is that film still has far more life than digital which is still clinical comparatively.
Ah, the parallels keep on growing...
chebby
Well-known member
Andrew Everard:JoelSim:i work with lots of photographers, and it's true they pretty much all use digital these days for the convenience and cost savings, speed, being able to look at captures rather than polaroids etc.
But the truth is that film still has far more life than digital which is still clinical comparatively.
Ah, the parallels keep on growing...
You mean converging surely? (Unless you use tilt/shift lenses.)
But the truth is that film still has far more life than digital which is still clinical comparatively.
Ah, the parallels keep on growing...
You mean converging surely? (Unless you use tilt/shift lenses.)
Nice pics Chebby, check out mine at www.pbase.com/akl, bet no one can tell which pic was taken using film/digital.
But before this thread degenerates into a photography debate (which I have read the book and seen the film about many years ago), I think what Andrew meant was that CD transports (I didn't mean the mechanisms, I meant the kit eg Cyrus CDXTse transport) are probably heading the same way as film, as more and more people use the ubiquitous PC/MACs with the emerging DACs.... in a sort of similar way as digicams became "mass market" over a relatively short space of time.
But before this thread degenerates into a photography debate (which I have read the book and seen the film about many years ago), I think what Andrew meant was that CD transports (I didn't mean the mechanisms, I meant the kit eg Cyrus CDXTse transport) are probably heading the same way as film, as more and more people use the ubiquitous PC/MACs with the emerging DACs.... in a sort of similar way as digicams became "mass market" over a relatively short space of time.
aye, i was in a local hifi shop the other day and it was all linn ds's and nas devices. i was only in there a couple of months ago, and never noticed it then. although linn stuff never seems to catch my eye...
chebby
Well-known member
AKL:Nice pics Chebby, check out mine at www.pbase.com/akl, bet no one can tell which pic was taken using film/digital.
Excellent stuff AKL. Seems we both like a good pier...
http://www.pbase.com/akl/image/27651393
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/87/255583760_582c5767f3_o.jpg
I prefer digital for my Infra-red stuff though....
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1434/536215258_226fa302c3_o.jpg
Excellent stuff AKL. Seems we both like a good pier...
http://www.pbase.com/akl/image/27651393
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/87/255583760_582c5767f3_o.jpg
I prefer digital for my Infra-red stuff though....
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1434/536215258_226fa302c3_o.jpg
chebby:Tarquinh:
Great photo, Chebby. How come no matter how much money and time I threw at the hobby I could never take photos like that?
Thanks. I just got lucky that day courtesy of the local Air-Sea Rescue squadron doing a flypast the very same time I was walking along the sea-front.
I carry a camera or cameras everywhere with me even to and from work or the shops. You never know what might happen.
Same camera (Contax T2) different film, almost the same place, different day, different sky....
What a superb picture.
Great photo, Chebby. How come no matter how much money and time I threw at the hobby I could never take photos like that?
Thanks. I just got lucky that day courtesy of the local Air-Sea Rescue squadron doing a flypast the very same time I was walking along the sea-front.
I carry a camera or cameras everywhere with me even to and from work or the shops. You never know what might happen.
Same camera (Contax T2) different film, almost the same place, different day, different sky....
What a superb picture.
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