I was not referring to ripped cds through your comp. I was referring to downloads off the internet . I use my MD to do recording . It's just the same as your format except yours holds more material and it's probably faster .Where does your assumption of alternative to cd come from ? I made no such reference . Get your facts straight, fella . I'm out of here .
I sold my CD player last month.
Tells you all you need to know as to my thoughts on the subject.
Tells you all you need to know as to my thoughts on the subject.
canuck2:I was not referring to ripped cds through your comp.
No, you weren't, I was, that's the point I'm trying to make, everybody nay-saying the idea of computer-based-music is whinging about how downloads don't provide the same experience or you can't get hold of decent quality music off the net. My point is and always has been, you don't need to download anything to listen to digitally streamed music, you don't need to sacrifice any quality and you don't need a CD player.
I was referring to downloads off the internet . I use my MD to do recording . It's just the same as your format except yours holds more material and it's probably faster
I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about now. MD, mini-disc? From what I recall that's a lossy format, in which case it isn't the same as ripping a CD to FLAC, as that's lossless.
Where does your assumption of alternative to cd come from? I made no such reference.
Hmm, well, that's the topic of this thread, are CD players on the way out? If they are, then it can only be because there's a viable alternative, which is what we're discussing, is there such an alternative? What are you talking about?
Get your facts straight, fella . I'm out of here .
Oh my facts are geometrically lined up and ready to go son...
No, you weren't, I was, that's the point I'm trying to make, everybody nay-saying the idea of computer-based-music is whinging about how downloads don't provide the same experience or you can't get hold of decent quality music off the net. My point is and always has been, you don't need to download anything to listen to digitally streamed music, you don't need to sacrifice any quality and you don't need a CD player.
I was referring to downloads off the internet . I use my MD to do recording . It's just the same as your format except yours holds more material and it's probably faster
I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about now. MD, mini-disc? From what I recall that's a lossy format, in which case it isn't the same as ripping a CD to FLAC, as that's lossless.
Where does your assumption of alternative to cd come from? I made no such reference.
Hmm, well, that's the topic of this thread, are CD players on the way out? If they are, then it can only be because there's a viable alternative, which is what we're discussing, is there such an alternative? What are you talking about?
Get your facts straight, fella . I'm out of here .
Oh my facts are geometrically lined up and ready to go son...
I still like CD's but what I would like in the future is some kind of USB/memory stick. You buy them just as CD's with booklet and all but I think a stick/card is more reliable. The soundquality has to be the same of course.
matthewpiano:
This I do agree with you on. Anyone who can hear the difference between a CD and a lossless rip of the same CD is suffering from some kind of delusion. Even I will admit that, if anything, the lossless rip should be slightly better because the error correction has been done during the ripping process rather than on the fly.
I must be completed deluded then MP as my recent experiences with lossless files and the DacMagic compared to the CDP doing the usual duties and the latter comfortably walked it!
This I do agree with you on. Anyone who can hear the difference between a CD and a lossless rip of the same CD is suffering from some kind of delusion. Even I will admit that, if anything, the lossless rip should be slightly better because the error correction has been done during the ripping process rather than on the fly.
I must be completed deluded then MP as my recent experiences with lossless files and the DacMagic compared to the CDP doing the usual duties and the latter comfortably walked it!
the record spot:matthewpiano:This I do agree with you on. Anyone who can hear the difference between a CD and a lossless rip of the same CD is suffering from some kind of delusion. Even I will admit that, if anything, the lossless rip should be slightly better because the error correction has been done during the ripping process rather than on the fly.
I must be completed deluded then MP as my recent experiences with lossless files and the DacMagic compared to the CDP doing the usual duties and the latter comfortably walked it!
Did you have the CDP plugged into the DACMagic?
I must be completed deluded then MP as my recent experiences with lossless files and the DacMagic compared to the CDP doing the usual duties and the latter comfortably walked it!
Did you have the CDP plugged into the DACMagic?
1. CDP to DM via Optical
2. Blu-Ray to DM
3. Lossless (various) to DM via optical
4. Lossless (various) to DM via USB
The KI every time.
2. Blu-Ray to DM
3. Lossless (various) to DM via optical
4. Lossless (various) to DM via USB
The KI every time.
Cypher:I still like CD's but what I would like in the future is some kind of USB/memory stick. You buy them just as CD's with booklet and all but I think a stick/card is more reliable. The soundquality has to be the same of course.
i would also like to see this, the technology is already there and exists in many devices. it would maybe also have a disk drive to cater for the cd's already out there. in fact our £40 quid micro hi fi in the kitchen has a cd drive and usb slot for memory sticks. is the cost of producing a memory stick vs cost of a blank cd the issue?
i would also like to see this, the technology is already there and exists in many devices. it would maybe also have a disk drive to cater for the cd's already out there. in fact our £40 quid micro hi fi in the kitchen has a cd drive and usb slot for memory sticks. is the cost of producing a memory stick vs cost of a blank cd the issue?
Tonestar1
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the record spot:1. CDP to DM via Optical
2. Blu-Ray to DM
3. Lossless (various) to DM via optical
4. Lossless (various) to DM via USB
The KI every time.
i would suggest the KI won every time as you like the way is processes the bits before outputing to the dac. Probably due to the fact you are familiar it. Doesn't make it better just different.
Properly ripped CD is getting exactly what is on the disc as the computer will use error correction and reread the indistinguishable part again to make sure it's getting exaclty what is on the disk. CD player doesn't have the luxury to preform checksums and errorcorrection to go back to re-read often multiple times to ensure the copy is pefrect.
The fact you like KI's representation of the ones and zeros is great for you. But doesn't take away from the fact you are listening to a less accurate reproduction of the information stored on the CD.
2. Blu-Ray to DM
3. Lossless (various) to DM via optical
4. Lossless (various) to DM via USB
The KI every time.
i would suggest the KI won every time as you like the way is processes the bits before outputing to the dac. Probably due to the fact you are familiar it. Doesn't make it better just different.
Properly ripped CD is getting exactly what is on the disc as the computer will use error correction and reread the indistinguishable part again to make sure it's getting exaclty what is on the disk. CD player doesn't have the luxury to preform checksums and errorcorrection to go back to re-read often multiple times to ensure the copy is pefrect.
The fact you like KI's representation of the ones and zeros is great for you. But doesn't take away from the fact you are listening to a less accurate reproduction of the information stored on the CD.
the record spot:
I must be completed deluded then MP as my recent experiences with lossless files and the DacMagic compared to the CDP doing the usual duties and the latter comfortably walked it!
That's been my experience too, using a modified AstinTrew AT3500 CD player( Op amps, power supply, telefunken valve) against ripping WAV files to a Sonneteer Morpheus server played through a PC>DAC the AstinTrew sounds better but the server/s is the future and more convenient.
I must be completed deluded then MP as my recent experiences with lossless files and the DacMagic compared to the CDP doing the usual duties and the latter comfortably walked it!
That's been my experience too, using a modified AstinTrew AT3500 CD player( Op amps, power supply, telefunken valve) against ripping WAV files to a Sonneteer Morpheus server played through a PC>DAC the AstinTrew sounds better but the server/s is the future and more convenient.
the_lhc:What were you playing the lossless files on? You wrote this up in another thread didn't you? Don't think I read it (clearly!).
Does the KI have an analogue output?
I used an external HDD (Western Digital - 1TB) and via iTunes using WAV files. Great via the Airport Express too incidentally.
Does the KI have an analogue output?
I used an external HDD (Western Digital - 1TB) and via iTunes using WAV files. Great via the Airport Express too incidentally.
Tonestar1:i would suggest the KI won every time as you like the way is processes the bits before outputing to the dac. Probably due to the fact you are familiar it. Doesn't make it better just different.
As I use an Airport Express doing the same thing that the DM did, and find that preferable, I'd suggest that whatever the DM does it loses out on being rather clinical in its execution and the resulting effect on the sound. Nothing to do with familiarity at all. If anything, it was a reminder of a sound I'd had with different amplification and one I didn't want to return to.
Tonestar1:
Properly ripped CD is getting exactly what is on the disc as the computer will use error correction and reread the indistinguishable part again to make sure it's getting exaclty what is on the disk. CD player doesn't have the luxury to preform checksums and errorcorrection to go back to re-read often multiple times to ensure the copy is pefrect.
Yes, on the page with all of this. Your point here would be...? The CD Player has the lesser presentation? The DAC does a better job? Accuracy is all well and good (which I already have of course using the AE and HDD anyway), but the DM wasn't up to it.
Tonestar1:
The fact you like KI's representation of the ones and zeros is great for you. But doesn't take away from the fact you are listening to a less accurate reproduction of the information stored on the CD.
It depends if the level of accuracy is dressed up in such as way as to make the underlying dryness of the deliver the poorer for it. Accuracy I have no problem with, I use WAV and an AE for instance. The end result with that is enjoyable, but the DM's take on proceedings was a poorer experience. Other may enjoy that dryness but as I said earlier, the Marantz was comfortably the better in presentation and audible loss I suspect is minimal.
As I use an Airport Express doing the same thing that the DM did, and find that preferable, I'd suggest that whatever the DM does it loses out on being rather clinical in its execution and the resulting effect on the sound. Nothing to do with familiarity at all. If anything, it was a reminder of a sound I'd had with different amplification and one I didn't want to return to.
Tonestar1:
Properly ripped CD is getting exactly what is on the disc as the computer will use error correction and reread the indistinguishable part again to make sure it's getting exaclty what is on the disk. CD player doesn't have the luxury to preform checksums and errorcorrection to go back to re-read often multiple times to ensure the copy is pefrect.
Yes, on the page with all of this. Your point here would be...? The CD Player has the lesser presentation? The DAC does a better job? Accuracy is all well and good (which I already have of course using the AE and HDD anyway), but the DM wasn't up to it.
Tonestar1:
The fact you like KI's representation of the ones and zeros is great for you. But doesn't take away from the fact you are listening to a less accurate reproduction of the information stored on the CD.
It depends if the level of accuracy is dressed up in such as way as to make the underlying dryness of the deliver the poorer for it. Accuracy I have no problem with, I use WAV and an AE for instance. The end result with that is enjoyable, but the DM's take on proceedings was a poorer experience. Other may enjoy that dryness but as I said earlier, the Marantz was comfortably the better in presentation and audible loss I suspect is minimal.
It's part of it though isn't it? I had - to some extent - looked for something that delivered good functionality, which the DM does, but it did influence the sound in a way I hadn't bargained for. I'm not writing additional offboard DACs off, but one that complements what's already there in the rest of the system rather than becoming a nagging itch!
It was good to have auditioned it though - and no need for apologies incidentally. I probably didn't make it fully clear earlier.
It was good to have auditioned it though - and no need for apologies incidentally. I probably didn't make it fully clear earlier.
Barring failure I think I may have bought my last CDP. I love my K2 but the sheer versatility and instant choice of digital streaming makes it harder to justify spending almost four figures on a CDP.
If they do a K2 in the future with input so can use as a dac, then I may change my mind.
If they do a K2 in the future with input so can use as a dac, then I may change my mind.
Tonestar1
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the record spot:It's part of it though isn't it? I had - to some extent - looked for something that delivered good functionality, which the DM does, but it did influence the sound in a way I hadn't bargained for. I'm not writing additional offboard DACs off, but one that complements what's already there in the rest of the system rather than becoming a nagging itch!
It was good to have auditioned it though - and no need for apologies incidentally. I probably didn't make it fully clear earlier.
I'm slightly interested on how a DAC may influence the sound of my system. But I'm not convinced a dac feeding into my AV amp (£2500 new) is going to offer much of an improvement over the in-situ dac unless I spend some serious cash on it. Think a turntable or some new speakers are my next serious upgrade.
It was good to have auditioned it though - and no need for apologies incidentally. I probably didn't make it fully clear earlier.
I'm slightly interested on how a DAC may influence the sound of my system. But I'm not convinced a dac feeding into my AV amp (£2500 new) is going to offer much of an improvement over the in-situ dac unless I spend some serious cash on it. Think a turntable or some new speakers are my next serious upgrade.
I didn't think of that either, but there you go. I guess the KI just makes a better fist of what's being offered up. The DM just fell away in direct comparison. The same detail, but less scale, less life. It does make me interested in reading up on the Apple AE DAC, but all DAC'd out currently...!
matthewpiano
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the record spot:matthewpiano:
This I do agree with you on. Anyone who can hear the difference between a CD and a lossless rip of the same CD is suffering from some kind of delusion. Even I will admit that, if anything, the lossless rip should be slightly better because the error correction has been done during the ripping process rather than on the fly.
I must be completed deluded then MP as my recent experiences with lossless files and the DacMagic compared to the CDP doing the usual duties and the latter comfortably walked it!
I am surprised RS, but I'm not going to question your judgement. I wonder how much understanding there is of how the quality of internal parts within the computer can affect sound quality...
Very thought provoking!!
This I do agree with you on. Anyone who can hear the difference between a CD and a lossless rip of the same CD is suffering from some kind of delusion. Even I will admit that, if anything, the lossless rip should be slightly better because the error correction has been done during the ripping process rather than on the fly.
I must be completed deluded then MP as my recent experiences with lossless files and the DacMagic compared to the CDP doing the usual duties and the latter comfortably walked it!
I am surprised RS, but I'm not going to question your judgement. I wonder how much understanding there is of how the quality of internal parts within the computer can affect sound quality...
Very thought provoking!!
Actually, I think it was more to do with the Cambridge than the lossless side of things. I've used the same files with the Airport Express and it sounds very good indeed. The DM seemed to draw something away from the music, but as to the "why", I'm not sure.
matthewpiano
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I felt the same a bit when I briefly had a DacMagic too.
I got the impression you found the Marantz through the DacMagic better than the lossless files through the DacMagic. If so, there must be something other than the DacMagic contributing to the problem.
I got the impression you found the Marantz through the DacMagic better than the lossless files through the DacMagic. If so, there must be something other than the DacMagic contributing to the problem.
Ah, no, not in the end. I tried the DM with the CDP and it detracted from the performance. A straight run between the two and the KI won out. No matter what I played through the DM, the music took on a more sterile presentation (my choice of words, others might prefer that sound). The Marantz made it more dynamic. It was pretty noticeable in the end; moreso than I first thought.
matthewpiano
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In reality then, perhaps if you had a seperate DAC, exactly the same as that inside the Marantz, lossless files could well have sounded as good as the CDs. Interesting stuff.
matthewpiano:In reality then, perhaps if you had a seperate DAC, exactly the same as that inside the Marantz, lossless files could well have sounded as good as the CDs. Interesting stuff.
Thats how I understand it, I would guess the DAC in the KI to be superior to the DM, at least in as far as RS is concerned in this case.
I dont understand how the transport could make any difference, as stated elsewhere on this thread a PC should really be a more efficient extractor of the data than a stand alone cd player
Thats how I understand it, I would guess the DAC in the KI to be superior to the DM, at least in as far as RS is concerned in this case.
I dont understand how the transport could make any difference, as stated elsewhere on this thread a PC should really be a more efficient extractor of the data than a stand alone cd player
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