Can a 7 channel receiver use front height speakers??

[Oldboy]

Hello all,

As the title suggests I'm just wondering if a 7 channel receiver such as the Yamaha RX-A1020 i'm considering buying can use front height speakers or are you limited to using a traditional 7.1 setup? I only ask because I would like the freedom to experiment with both set ups to see which suits my room better, not a deal breaker for my chances of buying one but just wondered if this option was limited to a 9 channel receiver set up.

Many thanks

 

[GSB]

It certainley can.Basically a traditional 5.1 with added front pressence,as opposed to rear surround backs.

I have read a fair bit on speaker positioning and it appears front pressence are more beneficial than the surround backs.If i could accomadate this would be the route i would take.

 

[Oldboy]

It certainley can.Basically a traditional 5.1 with added front pressence,as opposed to rear surround backs.

I have read a fair bit on speaker positioning and it appears front pressence are more beneficial than the surround backs.If i could accomadate this would be the route i would take.

That is excellent news thank you GSB for confirming that, much appreciated. I am very happy with the surround field from my rears so I think if anything the front height option would be my preferred route for extra surround speakers, they are easier to accomodate too as they are nearer my equipment and won't have to hide more speaker cable going to the rear of my room which is great.

I wasn't aware that front height speakers were more beneficial to the surround field though so that's very interesting information, I presume with front height speakers a 7.1 surround bluray disc would be compatible??

Many thanks GSB

 

[GSB]

Yep,don't ask me how it all works,but basicaly it is the same type of set-up as you find in cinema's.Big Brother will no doubt put his authoritive stamp on your thread

The avr in question is roughly the same as i have now,so it offers you a virtual front pressence,all through it's 3D sound thingyme-bob.While not nearly affective as real speakers it alows the user to lift the dialogue(center)by some margin

 

[Oldboy]

That's great news thanks GSB, really appreciate the info, just placed a deposit on the 1020 by phone...now for the wait, been a told a week or so for stock to be delivered then will receive the amp the next day.

This will be my first Yamaha amp so will take some getting used to but it's a massive step up in terms of performance from my old Onkyo 609, can't wait to hear the difference in sound quality and to try out the front height speakers when I get another set of Dali Zensor 1's.

Very many thanks for your help.

 

[GSB]

No worries Oldboy,glad i can help

 

[mr malarky]

Check the amp has the necessary surround sound options - an older amp with 7.1 channels it won't automatically support the decoding necessary for front height or width effects, as the front height/width concept was only introduced around 3 or 4 yers ago (though from memory Yamaha receivers have for years supported a proprietary front effect option).

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Full report essential oldboy. Rarely see much experience of fronts so we would be interested. My backs seem to add little to 5.1 tho adding fronts would not improve the look of my lounge. I dont think they raise the centre, more so lift the main front soundstage tho it is a 'processed' effect rather than descrete so I guess different sources will give diff' results.
Us olduns' must set the pace in these ground breaking areas!

 

[mr malarky]

Have run a 7.1 system with front height speakers before, of my old denon 3310 receiver, and it was well worth the effort of wiring up the extra speakers, definitely gave a more convincing sound stage for film soundtracks (especially weather effects and explosions etc), so will be interested to hear whether you get the same improvements?

 

[The_Lhc]

Check the amp has the necessary surround sound options - an older amp with 7.1 channels it won't automatically support the decoding necessary for front height or width effects, as the front height/width concept was only introduced around 3 or 4 yers ago

+1, the presence of 7 channels doesn't automatically equal front height processing capability, you should be able to tell as most amps that can do it will mark the speaker terminals as such on the rear.

 

[Oldboy]

Full report essential oldboy. Rarely see much experience of fronts so we would be interested. My backs seem to add little to 5.1 tho adding fronts would not improve the look of my lounge. I dont think they raise the centre, more so lift the main front soundstage tho it is a 'processed' effect rather than descrete so I guess different sources will give diff' results. Us olduns' must set the pace in these ground breaking areas!

I fully intend to do just that when i've got everything in place, need to buy an extra set of speakers this month when my wallet recovers from the expense of the amp then I fully intend to add the front height speakers if the amp allows this feature.

When you say it's a 'processed' effect does that mean that the only way to enjoy the front height feature is through a sound format built into the amp and therefore a native 7.1 soundtrack would have to be bypassed for the sound format in the amp?

As i've now found out after some research the front height speakers have no impact on the centre speaker and are as you say for the front soundstage and therefore offer a greater sense of effects doing a full 360 sweep in your room...we shall see.

 

[Oldboy]

Check the amp has the necessary surround sound options - an older amp with 7.1 channels it won't automatically support the decoding necessary for front height or width effects, as the front height/width concept was only introduced around 3 or 4 yers ago (though from memory Yamaha receivers have for years supported a proprietary front effect option).

Thanks for the info. I presume that as the amp in question is a 2013 receiver and part of the Yamaha Aventage range that it should support front height speakers...??? I've seen a few pics of the back panel but I can't seem to get a good picture where you can see the markings on the speaker terminal panel, will have a look for a pdf of the manual and see if that sheds more light on the subject.

Very many thanks for your input.

EDIT: Good photo of the rear panel here that can be zoomed into nicely to see the speaker terminals...can't see any mention of front height...not looking good for this option, see link below.

http://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/audio-visual/av-receivers-amps/rx-a1020_g/

 

[Oldboy]

Have run a 7.1 system with front height speakers before, of my old denon 3310 receiver, and it was well worth the effort of wiring up the extra speakers, definitely gave a more convincing sound stage for film soundtracks (especially weather effects and explosions etc), so will be interested to hear whether you get the same improvements?

Will report back with the results once i've got it all and it's up and running but as stated above it's not looking good for front height speakers with the Yamaha RX-A1020 amp at the moment, more research needed. Really hoping the effort would be worth it for me although the tv wall will be speaker heavy with my wall mounted centre, floorstanders and then 2 more height speakers!

 

[robjcooper]

Oldboy,

Had a quick look at the manual and it looks as if you would be good to go for front height speakers - here's the link to the page where the manual download is. Take a look at page 17.

http://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/audio-visual/av-receivers-amps/rx-a1020_g/

good luck and let us know how it sounds.

Rob

 

[RobinKidderminster]

There are no native 7.1 front height bd's as far as I know. Rear/back 7.1 is sadly rare. How the amp deals with this I dont know but theres the fun for u I guess.

 

[GSB]

My avr is a 2011 model and that has presnce speakers(virtual)that lift the height of the main dialogue...i know becouse i use it for non Hd master audio.

For a 7.1 HD master audio track i cannot confirm if presence speakers would work,but i am confidant they would from what i have read.A quick e-mail to Yamaha uk would be the best option.

EDIT:For a master audio track it does look like the extra 2 chanels are not mixed for front presence speakers....so do cinema's not have master audio :?

 

[mr malarky]

My avr is a 2011 model and that has presnce speakers(virtual)that lift the height of the main dialogue...i know becouse i use it for non Hd master audio.

For a 7.1 HD master audio track i cannot confirm if presence speakers would work,but i am confidant they would from what i have read.A quick e-mail to Yamaha uk would be the best option.

EDIT:For a master audio track it does look like the extra 2 chanels are not mixed for front presence speakers....so do cinema's not have master audio :?

A 'standard' 7.1 surround mix is made up of centre, 2 x front speakers, 2 x 'side' speakers, and 2 x rear speakers (plus the sub of course), the idea being to give a 360 wraparound sound stage. With receivers offering front height or front width effects, they are doing a similar thing to what your amp does when it converts a stereo TV soundtrack into Dolby pro-logic (ie the amp is doing its on decoding 'on the fly', seperadaing some of the sound and sending it to the extra speakers). Hence some high end receivers will offer a '9.1' set-up (standard 7.1 as above, plus the option of 2 front height or front width speakers). Most BluRay discs are simply mixed in 5.1, as that's the set-up 90% of people with surround sound have in their homes (scientists believe this limitation is due to the 'women' phenomenon, ie the female in the house vetoes the addition of any more speakers in the lounge!). A handful are mixed in 6.1 (5.1 plus an extra rear centre speaker, which Lucas tried pushing with Star Wars discs, and some very rare 7.1 offerings. Most just offer 5.1 because film companies don't believe it's worth the cost of processing the extra soundtrack options when so few people will actually use them in the home.

Dont be out off by any of the above though, it should still sound great!

 

[GSB]

For an example i watch sky movies(DD 5.1)using the avr's dsp settings,namly the sci-fi one,so if you do have front presence speakers you can listen in 7.1...as said would still be very good...better than standard 5.1 in my opinion,i think the only dilema for yourself Oldboy would be an HD Master audio track.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

I tend to use 'straight' for dd5.1 skyhd or 'direct'. Only use surround back for ddpl. Must try a dsp setting. I guess its fun to try different settings dependant on source/material. A good bd dd5.1 usually beats skyhd tho. Cheers

 

[Oldboy]

Oldboy,

Had a quick look at the manual and it looks as if you would be good to go for front height speakers - here's the link to the page where the manual download is. Take a look at page 17.

http://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/audio-visual/av-receivers-amps/rx-a1020_g/

good luck and let us know how it sounds.

Rob

Great news Rob!!

Doh didn't spot the link for the manual download...that's brilliant I'm definately going to get the front presence speakers up and running asap now and will report back as soon as I have it up and running, thanks alot for the tip, really appreciated.

Best regards,

Nick.

 

[Oldboy]

My avr is a 2011 model and that has presnce speakers(virtual)that lift the height of the main dialogue...i know becouse i use it for non Hd master audio.

For a 7.1 HD master audio track i cannot confirm if presence speakers would work,but i am confidant they would from what i have read.A quick e-mail to Yamaha uk would be the best option.

EDIT:For a master audio track it does look like the extra 2 chanels are not mixed for front presence speakers....so do cinema's not have master audio :?

Hmmm so in that case I would have to use the amps DSP presence setting even with a native 7.1 Master Audio track, would you still get the usual gains in sound quality or would the amps DSP mode lose the HD sound effect ??

It does seem alot of hassle to go through to then only be able to use it with tv and games, I was hoping the real gains would come with movies but then I guess I always have the option of listening to blurays in 5.1 to keep the gains in HD sound and bypass the front presence speakers but that kind of defeats the oject of the exrecise.

I was really hoping that a 7.1 disc would be decoded with the front presence speakers in mind as I have quite a few 7.1 discs now but I guess it's just not meant to be...boooo! :?

 

[Oldboy]

Many thanks to everyone for your input it's really appreciated, i'm guessing that as front height/presence speakers are quite a new set up that they simply aren't supported with native soundtracks due to the 7.1 standard already being in place as four rears...I was just hoping that the amp could decode it into front height without using a preset DSP but perhaps I was hoping for too much.

I can't find reference to ANY amp on the markey being able to do this but I guess I will only know the answers to my questions for sure once I get the amp and extra speakers...seems like a bit of a gamble though.

 

[GSB]

Oldboy just remember that an HD master audio track is only the mix the producer/director intended(from what i understand),and a good mix sounds fantastic.

Watched a film this afternoon,with an HD master audio track and it was terrible....the yamaha's dsp is alott more discreet than you probably realise,i very much doubt you will be dissapointed

 

[Oldboy]

Thanks again GSB, really appreciate your input.

I had a conventional 7.1 layout when I had my old Q Acoustics 1010i set up, as near as I could get it anyway. Because of my room it's impossible to get the layout as recommended by both Dolby an THX, simply because of the constraints of my room no matter what I do I can't have the speakers to the side of my seating position with rears behind me. I ended up just having a spread of four behind my seating position and as far out to the side as I could get them, it sounded ok but didn't make the most of a 7.1 track.

This is where my thoughts on having front presence speakers come in as it's far more practical with my new speakers as the rears fire out surround so well that I don't think an extra set of rears would add anything to the surround field and I could easily incorporate front presence speakers into my system and in the correct position. Now that i've bought a new amp (but got to wait for stock) that is more appropriate for my system the time seems right to give it a go.

Worst case senario is that I end up going back to a more conventional 7.1 layout again if the front presence idea doesn't pan out but I definately want to try it out and see how it sounds with front presence speakers.

 

[GSB]

Look forward to reading your review when you have everything set-up