[quote user="Thaiman"]I thought ATC was on about bi-wire speakers cables doesn't make any different rather than cables in general! Did I miss something? tell me more solomon..[/quote]I guess I generalized too much- my mistake! Atc mostly argues that separate amplifiers in a hifi system is a mistake to begin with. Much power being lost and not optimized for each driver; they say it's to do with passive design, i.e. amplifier->speaker cable->speaker with passive crossover. So in that perspective they go even further; speaker wire is an unnecessary feature: every speaker should be an active design.Avi do argue more specifically that special speaker wire isn't required for their speakers. However, I must add here that they also seem to head towards actively driven speakers: the ADM9 being their first real example. (Previous designs -with amp-pack added-still had a passive filter built in. I'm not completely sure about this, so please correct me if I'm wrong) PS: I still like to hear from AVi and ATC owners if they can confirm these claims!
[quote user="Nigel Proctor"][quote user="Anton90125"] I am afraid nobody has ever demonstrated that interconnects and mains leads collectively don't really sound different either.[/quote]
How about amplifiers? :O)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12752[/quote]
Very interesting. It shows that care and common sense need to be used when doing comparative testing. I am sure What Hifi fully understand this and that their tests / results reflect this.
However I remmber in the early 80's (actually 79- 82 ish), a number of Japanese manufactures brought various amplifier designs utilising exotic variation of negative feedback. The distortion measurements were 0.0000005% or something silly like that.
The problem was everyone who heard them hated them. They sounded awful even when compared to their cheaper more conventional brethren. There are dangers with only going by measurement/ specs and not doing any auditioning.
The post "http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12752" although interesting and entertaining (including all the subsequent posts which followed ) for all sort of reasons - actually proves nothing. I could write a post claiming black is white, doesn't mean that its correct.
[quote user="Nigel Proctor"]It's very interesting to see how insulting those convinced otherwise become. Not dissimilar to here in fact.[/quote]
I don't understand how taking an opposite view point is insulting? Do you not like discussions?
[quote user="Nigel Proctor"]I would have thought that jiggerypokery like that would give lower fidelity than ordinary pieces of wire but maybe low fidelity is what you like.[/quote]
This is taken from another tread and clearly shows you are not above being insulting yourself. "Maybe low fidelity is what you like" Indeed!
How about amplifiers? :O)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12752[/quote]
Very interesting. It shows that care and common sense need to be used when doing comparative testing. I am sure What Hifi fully understand this and that their tests / results reflect this.
However I remmber in the early 80's (actually 79- 82 ish), a number of Japanese manufactures brought various amplifier designs utilising exotic variation of negative feedback. The distortion measurements were 0.0000005% or something silly like that.
The problem was everyone who heard them hated them. They sounded awful even when compared to their cheaper more conventional brethren. There are dangers with only going by measurement/ specs and not doing any auditioning.
The post "http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12752" although interesting and entertaining (including all the subsequent posts which followed ) for all sort of reasons - actually proves nothing. I could write a post claiming black is white, doesn't mean that its correct.
[quote user="Nigel Proctor"]It's very interesting to see how insulting those convinced otherwise become. Not dissimilar to here in fact.[/quote]
I don't understand how taking an opposite view point is insulting? Do you not like discussions?
[quote user="Nigel Proctor"]I would have thought that jiggerypokery like that would give lower fidelity than ordinary pieces of wire but maybe low fidelity is what you like.[/quote]
This is taken from another tread and clearly shows you are not above being insulting yourself. "Maybe low fidelity is what you like" Indeed!
[quote user="Nigel Proctor"][quote user="Anton90125"] I am afraid nobody has ever demonstrated that interconnects and mains leads collectively don't really sound different either.[/quote]
How about amplifiers? :O)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12752.
It's very interesting to see how insulting those convinced otherwise become. Not dissimilar to here in fact.
[/quote]You don't know half how right you are! Read same page 5th post from Fred Dieckmann!By the way, I think you have a talent for getting kicked off the forum. Don't get too personal and tell about you're own experiences (preferably with others in the room to verify your results) before you have to change your name again!
How about amplifiers? :O)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12752.
It's very interesting to see how insulting those convinced otherwise become. Not dissimilar to here in fact.
[/quote]You don't know half how right you are! Read same page 5th post from Fred Dieckmann!By the way, I think you have a talent for getting kicked off the forum. Don't get too personal and tell about you're own experiences (preferably with others in the room to verify your results) before you have to change your name again!
ANTON V NIGEL, Ding ding chaps! Please lets continue being civil eh! It's lasted 50+ posts now with some very interesting directions from a musician and now an active speaker suggestion. Lets not turn it to rat $hit now. PLEASE.
I have noted from Thaiman's brief posts, (he he), that he has some very constructive comments to make on his obviously premium interconnects, and is a firm believer in the advantages of these, but note he is using standard mains cabling from his signature. Please comment on this Thaiman.
Gerry.
I have noted from Thaiman's brief posts, (he he), that he has some very constructive comments to make on his obviously premium interconnects, and is a firm believer in the advantages of these, but note he is using standard mains cabling from his signature. Please comment on this Thaiman.
Gerry.
[quote user="Oldskool"]ANTON V NIGEL, Ding ding chaps! Please lets continue being civil eh![/quote]
No Problem! Just show me where I strayed from being civil and I will correct all subsequent postings.
[quote user="Oldskool"]active speaker suggestion[/quote]
I did hear some Meridian active speakers and was very impressed by the fast sound.
No Problem! Just show me where I strayed from being civil and I will correct all subsequent postings.
[quote user="Oldskool"]active speaker suggestion[/quote]
I did hear some Meridian active speakers and was very impressed by the fast sound.
[quote user="Oldskool"]he is using standard mains cabling from his signature. Please comment on this
Thaiman.[/quote]
Most of active posters already know that doesn't matter how expensive or well builded power cables I have demo I couldn't get any sound improvement in my system.....may be my electronics are just very good anyway
Thaiman.[/quote]
Most of active posters already know that doesn't matter how expensive or well builded power cables I have demo I couldn't get any sound improvement in my system.....may be my electronics are just very good anyway
1. Most audio 'geeks' are middle-aged and their hearing will have started to deteriorate
2. Yes, there is a noticeable difference (in some cases) between interconnects and speaker wires
3. (I'm sorry i dont have a reference) but i read an article a while back comparing the quality of mp3's and cd's and 95% of people could not tell the difference at a bit rate of above 228kbps, i prefer to keep mine to 320kbps personally.
4. It depends on your pc
5. I play my mp3's through an MF X-80 amp, with QED Silver annie and eltax symphony 2.3's and they sound b-e-a-u-tiful! (however i will concede some 685's are on my x-mas list)
2. Yes, there is a noticeable difference (in some cases) between interconnects and speaker wires
3. (I'm sorry i dont have a reference) but i read an article a while back comparing the quality of mp3's and cd's and 95% of people could not tell the difference at a bit rate of above 228kbps, i prefer to keep mine to 320kbps personally.
4. It depends on your pc
5. I play my mp3's through an MF X-80 amp, with QED Silver annie and eltax symphony 2.3's and they sound b-e-a-u-tiful! (however i will concede some 685's are on my x-mas list)
[quote user="BigJ"]1. Most audio 'geeks' are middle-aged and their hearing will have started
to deteriorate[/quote]
I admit to that!
[quote user="BigJ"](I'm sorry i dont have a reference) but i read an article a while back comparing
the quality of mp3's and cd's and 95% of people could not tell the difference at
a bit rate of above 228kbps, i prefer to keep mine to 320kbps personally.[/quote]
I don't listen to many compressed format because through my amp and speakers they sounded horrid!
[quote user="BigJ"] It depends on your pc[/quote]
I was once an Enthuiastic computer geek! with audigy pro sound card and all that jazz...they didn't even come closed to a proper Hifi set up.
to deteriorate[/quote]
I admit to that!
[quote user="BigJ"](I'm sorry i dont have a reference) but i read an article a while back comparing
the quality of mp3's and cd's and 95% of people could not tell the difference at
a bit rate of above 228kbps, i prefer to keep mine to 320kbps personally.[/quote]
I don't listen to many compressed format because through my amp and speakers they sounded horrid!
[quote user="BigJ"] It depends on your pc[/quote]
I was once an Enthuiastic computer geek! with audigy pro sound card and all that jazz...they didn't even come closed to a proper Hifi set up.
Alec
Well-known member
Thaiman, what was the rest of the system you were using with that soundcard? I wouldnt mind sticking my neck out and betting it was lower spec than the stuff you are currently running, according to your sig.
aslso depends on your software, i run winamp and i've duel-screened my computer and put the second screen on top of the amp, looks cool and i've got a system with 5k+ songs to choose frm.
I see no reason why people cant and shouldn't compromise between the two, there will always be polar opposites in opinions but for the majority in the middle....
I see no reason why people cant and shouldn't compromise between the two, there will always be polar opposites in opinions but for the majority in the middle....
These active speakers seem to be popping up everywhere!! Martin Logan active electrostatic speakers are now in the latest news section.
And just a while ago: ATC scm 16a (active)
http://whathifi.com/mp3/archive/2007/08/11/news-atc-s-ultimate-desktop-speakers.aspxI wonder if this is the beginning of a new trend?By the way, after some searching I did find an interesting post from an Avi owner, but I'm not sure he's still on the forum. http://whathifi.com/forums/p/223/1189.aspx#1189 Anton90125, thanks for this link http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/index2.htm ;nice explanation of jitter too (on jitter.de)
And just a while ago: ATC scm 16a (active)
http://whathifi.com/mp3/archive/2007/08/11/news-atc-s-ultimate-desktop-speakers.aspxI wonder if this is the beginning of a new trend?By the way, after some searching I did find an interesting post from an Avi owner, but I'm not sure he's still on the forum. http://whathifi.com/forums/p/223/1189.aspx#1189 Anton90125, thanks for this link http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/index2.htm ;nice explanation of jitter too (on jitter.de)
[quote user="Anton90125"]"Maybe low fidelity is what you like" Indeed![/quote]
Well, it fits with the Caffreys. :O)
Well, it fits with the Caffreys. :O)
I believe a) there is a difference between cables (a change of signature which is very subjective, not everyone likes the same sound), possibly more expensive cables do sound better on the whole but alot do not warrant their price tags and b) (and this may completely contradict point a...but m'eh!) alot of people hear differences that aren't there. What do i mean...
I like to think I'm very good at not suffering the placebo affect. I've recently upgraded amp and cd player to ones that cost over twice the ones i had previously...they were both second hand so fully run in from the offset, placed them into the system and then played about mixing old with new...the amp blew me away and was superior in every aspect. The cd player sounded 97% the same as the other one costing less than half it's price. Not only did it sound that similar, but I couldn't make my mind up which I prefered after 3 hours of back to back playing between the two players. Eventually I stuck with the new one almost because it "should" sound better.
As for interconnects...my current system totals about £1600 and when I replace my £50 interconnect with the freebie from the box the depreciation in sound quality is at the most 10% but I do believe I could easily tell the difference if faced with a blind test.
I also heard no difference whatsoever when I turned to bi-wiring.
I have not previously considered mains filters as I've always wanted to spend all my cash on other pieces of equipment but I am willing to experiment and may do in the near future.
I also believe that less than 5% of the people on this forum could hear the difference between 320Kbps mp3 and an original cd.
And lastly in response to Nigel Proctor who says "silver connectors should not be used as they oxidise", the oxidisation that occurs on the surface of silver has almost EXACTLY the same resistance as silver itself....and before anyone asks the difference in sound quality would be completely and utterly negligable
I like to think I'm very good at not suffering the placebo affect. I've recently upgraded amp and cd player to ones that cost over twice the ones i had previously...they were both second hand so fully run in from the offset, placed them into the system and then played about mixing old with new...the amp blew me away and was superior in every aspect. The cd player sounded 97% the same as the other one costing less than half it's price. Not only did it sound that similar, but I couldn't make my mind up which I prefered after 3 hours of back to back playing between the two players. Eventually I stuck with the new one almost because it "should" sound better.
As for interconnects...my current system totals about £1600 and when I replace my £50 interconnect with the freebie from the box the depreciation in sound quality is at the most 10% but I do believe I could easily tell the difference if faced with a blind test.
I also heard no difference whatsoever when I turned to bi-wiring.
I have not previously considered mains filters as I've always wanted to spend all my cash on other pieces of equipment but I am willing to experiment and may do in the near future.
I also believe that less than 5% of the people on this forum could hear the difference between 320Kbps mp3 and an original cd.
And lastly in response to Nigel Proctor who says "silver connectors should not be used as they oxidise", the oxidisation that occurs on the surface of silver has almost EXACTLY the same resistance as silver itself....and before anyone asks the difference in sound quality would be completely and utterly negligable
just realised 10% reduction in sound quality is actually quite alot and far more than i experince when i change the interconnect hehe...maybe 4-5%??
[quote user="joeparnell"]I like to think I'm very good at not suffering the placebo affect. I've recently upgraded amp and cd player to ones that cost over twice the ones i had previously...they were both second hand so fully run in from the offset,[/quote]
Cables don't need to be run in.
[quote user="joeparnell"]in response to Nigel Proctor who says "silver connectors should not be used as they oxidise", the oxidisation that occurs on the surface of silver has almost EXACTLY the same resistance as silver itself....and before anyone asks the difference in sound quality would be completely and utterly negligable[/quote]
As is changing to silver in the first place.
Cables don't need to be run in.
[quote user="joeparnell"]in response to Nigel Proctor who says "silver connectors should not be used as they oxidise", the oxidisation that occurs on the surface of silver has almost EXACTLY the same resistance as silver itself....and before anyone asks the difference in sound quality would be completely and utterly negligable[/quote]
As is changing to silver in the first place.
[quote user="al7478"]forgive me for going OT and, indeed, slightly huff-ish, but i must defend mp3 users. if you use mp3 you seem to be excluded by some from the hfi world. but you can actually achieve substantial increases in mp3 performance with decent kit. you can also re-encode to wave, and get an even bigger improvement. sometimes lack of room means pc based music is a necessity in fact. lastly, there is a reason why whfs&v take mp3 (wave, etc) users seriously, unlike many other mags.[/quote]
You can't improve the quality of a track by converting it from MP3 to Wave, The audio information scrapped while compressing the source Wave into MP3 is gone forever, and there's nothing you can do to bring it back.
You can't improve the quality of a track by converting it from MP3 to Wave, The audio information scrapped while compressing the source Wave into MP3 is gone forever, and there's nothing you can do to bring it back.
Alec
Well-known member
Indeed, but you can re-rip your original CDs, if you have them. If you dont, you have to decide whether its worth getting hold of them again. Point taken tho, and i didnt make that clear in the post you quote above.
[quote user="Nigel Proctor"][quote user="Anton90125"]"Maybe low fidelity is what you like" Indeed![/quote]
Well, it fits with the Caffreys. :O)[/quote]
There is nothing "LOW" about Caffreys. Its a lovely drink without any harsh edges.It does not fill you up with hot air. It refreshed and soothes at the same time.
IMO it comes second to Guinness when drunk in Ireland. Or our you going to say Guinness tastes the same in England as well as Ireland!
Well, it fits with the Caffreys. :O)[/quote]
There is nothing "LOW" about Caffreys. Its a lovely drink without any harsh edges.It does not fill you up with hot air. It refreshed and soothes at the same time.
IMO it comes second to Guinness when drunk in Ireland. Or our you going to say Guinness tastes the same in England as well as Ireland!
I find my hifi sounds better when the speakers are plugged into the amp through cables. It's a bit quiet when they're not.
But seriously, if a cable adds 5% to the sound quality then it's worth paying for. Even if it's just in the mind (which to my mind it isn't) then it's worth paying as you will still think it sounds better. Having a physics A-level and knowing how different materials conduct heat, sound etc then there's definitely science involved.
But seriously, if a cable adds 5% to the sound quality then it's worth paying for. Even if it's just in the mind (which to my mind it isn't) then it's worth paying as you will still think it sounds better. Having a physics A-level and knowing how different materials conduct heat, sound etc then there's definitely science involved.
matthewpiano
Well-known member
I've just replaced my Marantz CD5001 with a NAD C521BEE CD player and noticed a far bigger improvement than expected. The NAD is superior in every way but, in particular, it opens out the mid-band which has a tendency to sound quite compressed on the Marantz. However, I then upgraded my interconnect from Cambridge Audio's budget one to Chord Co. Crimson - a move from a £10 interconnect to a £38 one. There was as much difference again. The change of cable completely opened up the soundstage and gave the sound much greater extension at the frequency extremes without any signs of strain. Crimson is a fabulous cable and I'm now buying more for my turntable and PP-2 phono stage.
I almost feel sorry for those people that fail to reap the sonic benefits that a small GBP38 upgrade can bring, just because they will not accept that interconnects can sound different.
The people who buy expensive cables are just religious nuts, that's all. From a speaker cable review:
"The
cornerstone on which Virtual Dynamics builds its cables is the belief that Coloumb
friction, which is described as mechanical vibration due to the resistance in the flow of
electrons, causes mechanical energy to develop in conductors."
Yes, there is a "belief", or rather law as us electrical engineers call it, that friction from electron flow causes heat energy. It's called resistance, or more precisely impedance. It's not magic and it is solved by using materials with high conductance like aluminum, gold, copper, and silver (silver has the highest of any pure metal btw).
Virtual Dynamics'
"Dynamic Filtering damps vibration from the conductor by using specially designed
spheres or particles as a mechanically based circuit."
Complete bull rubbish. If it damped vibration, it would kill the music. Plus it can't damp vibration. Wires have completely real impedance, which means that the power factor across them is unity, and they can not alter the phase of the signal across them. It would be bad if they somehow developed inductance or capacitance, because then they would become filters, blocking out a specific range of the sound spectrum.
"The end results.are
a reduction of skin effects and an increase of speed, linearity and bandwidth of
electrical frequencies."
Speed? Like the speed of light speeds up? Huh? Bandwidth of electrical frequencies? WTF?
This is a bunch of snake oil, and if you think that they work better than any other set of copper wires of the same gauge then you are an idiot.
"The
cornerstone on which Virtual Dynamics builds its cables is the belief that Coloumb
friction, which is described as mechanical vibration due to the resistance in the flow of
electrons, causes mechanical energy to develop in conductors."
Yes, there is a "belief", or rather law as us electrical engineers call it, that friction from electron flow causes heat energy. It's called resistance, or more precisely impedance. It's not magic and it is solved by using materials with high conductance like aluminum, gold, copper, and silver (silver has the highest of any pure metal btw).
Virtual Dynamics'
"Dynamic Filtering damps vibration from the conductor by using specially designed
spheres or particles as a mechanically based circuit."
Complete bull rubbish. If it damped vibration, it would kill the music. Plus it can't damp vibration. Wires have completely real impedance, which means that the power factor across them is unity, and they can not alter the phase of the signal across them. It would be bad if they somehow developed inductance or capacitance, because then they would become filters, blocking out a specific range of the sound spectrum.
"The end results.are
a reduction of skin effects and an increase of speed, linearity and bandwidth of
electrical frequencies."
Speed? Like the speed of light speeds up? Huh? Bandwidth of electrical frequencies? WTF?
This is a bunch of snake oil, and if you think that they work better than any other set of copper wires of the same gauge then you are an idiot.
[quote user="hifikrazy"]I almost feel sorry for those people that fail to reap the sonic benefits that a small GBP38 upgrade can bring, just because they will not accept that interconnects can sound different.[/quote]
I don't hear any difference so spending anything extra is pointless.
I don't hear any difference so spending anything extra is pointless.
[quote user="skyfi"]
The people who buy expensive cables are just religious nuts, that's all. From a speaker cable review:
"The
cornerstone on which Virtual Dynamics builds its cables is the belief that Coloumb
friction, which is described as mechanical vibration due to the resistance in the flow of
electrons, causes mechanical energy to develop in conductors."
Yes, there is a "belief", or rather law as us electrical engineers call it, that friction from electron flow causes heat energy. It's called resistance, or more precisely impedance. It's not magic and it is solved by using materials with high conductance like aluminum, gold, copper, and silver (silver has the highest of any pure metal btw).
Virtual Dynamics'
"Dynamic Filtering damps vibration from the conductor by using specially designed
spheres or particles as a mechanically based circuit."
Complete bull rubbish. If it damped vibration, it would kill the music. Plus it can't damp vibration. Wires have completely real impedance, which means that the power factor across them is unity, and they can not alter the phase of the signal across them. It would be bad if they somehow developed inductance or capacitance, because then they would become filters, blocking out a specific range of the sound spectrum.
"The end results.are
a reduction of skin effects and an increase of speed, linearity and bandwidth of
electrical frequencies."
Speed? Like the speed of light speeds up? Huh? Bandwidth of electrical frequencies? WTF?
This is a bunch of snake oil, and if you think that they work better than any other set of copper wires of the same gauge then you are an idiot.
[/quote]
To be quite frank a fair proportion of both sides of this argument are religious nuts.
I have experienced personally that cables make a difference. I've not explored lots of different price points but the fact that I observe a difference between two cables proves to my satisfaction that cables make a difference, the rest is arguing over details.
Without wishing to feed too much to the wire-fetish religious nuts... as an electrical engineer you should be aware that most electrical applications require something called a circuit - that is two wires, one which carries electrons in one direction and another to return them. I.e. an interconnect isn't a wire, it's two wires, separated by an insulator. When I did physics at school we called such a configuration a capacitor. If they're twisted they will also constitute an inductor. You might like to think about this before making such absolute statements as "completely real impedence". Completely is a very, very strong word in this context.
And electricity does not travel at the speed of light - according to relativity it can't can it? For crying out loud even the speed of light varies accoring to the medium it's travelling in (hence refraction).
The people who buy expensive cables are just religious nuts, that's all. From a speaker cable review:
"The
cornerstone on which Virtual Dynamics builds its cables is the belief that Coloumb
friction, which is described as mechanical vibration due to the resistance in the flow of
electrons, causes mechanical energy to develop in conductors."
Yes, there is a "belief", or rather law as us electrical engineers call it, that friction from electron flow causes heat energy. It's called resistance, or more precisely impedance. It's not magic and it is solved by using materials with high conductance like aluminum, gold, copper, and silver (silver has the highest of any pure metal btw).
Virtual Dynamics'
"Dynamic Filtering damps vibration from the conductor by using specially designed
spheres or particles as a mechanically based circuit."
Complete bull rubbish. If it damped vibration, it would kill the music. Plus it can't damp vibration. Wires have completely real impedance, which means that the power factor across them is unity, and they can not alter the phase of the signal across them. It would be bad if they somehow developed inductance or capacitance, because then they would become filters, blocking out a specific range of the sound spectrum.
"The end results.are
a reduction of skin effects and an increase of speed, linearity and bandwidth of
electrical frequencies."
Speed? Like the speed of light speeds up? Huh? Bandwidth of electrical frequencies? WTF?
This is a bunch of snake oil, and if you think that they work better than any other set of copper wires of the same gauge then you are an idiot.
[/quote]
To be quite frank a fair proportion of both sides of this argument are religious nuts.
I have experienced personally that cables make a difference. I've not explored lots of different price points but the fact that I observe a difference between two cables proves to my satisfaction that cables make a difference, the rest is arguing over details.
Without wishing to feed too much to the wire-fetish religious nuts... as an electrical engineer you should be aware that most electrical applications require something called a circuit - that is two wires, one which carries electrons in one direction and another to return them. I.e. an interconnect isn't a wire, it's two wires, separated by an insulator. When I did physics at school we called such a configuration a capacitor. If they're twisted they will also constitute an inductor. You might like to think about this before making such absolute statements as "completely real impedence". Completely is a very, very strong word in this context.
And electricity does not travel at the speed of light - according to relativity it can't can it? For crying out loud even the speed of light varies accoring to the medium it's travelling in (hence refraction).
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