CABLING and ACCESSORIES - Let the flames begin.

[Anonymous]

We seem to have a very mixed set of opinions here and it would seem that there is not necessarily a relationship between cost and performance, just a "different" sound. Surely, the cable should not change the sound at all?

For a little entertainment, take a look at this cable supplier and somebody PLEASE justify to me £10,000 per metre for an RCA cable, £18,000 for 8m of speaker cable and £6000 for a component video cable. At these prices, it would cost me in excess of £200,000 to rewire my system!

http://www.transparentcable.com/index2.html

Happy reading.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Oldskool"]We seem to have a very mixed set of opinions here and it would seem that there is not necessarily a relationship between cost and performance, just a "different" sound. Surely, the cable should not change the sound at all?

For a little entertainment, take a look at this cable supplier and somebody PLEASE justify to me £10,000 per metre for an RCA cable, £18,000 for 8m of speaker cable and £6000 for a component video cable. At these prices, it would cost me in excess of £200,000 to rewire my system!

http://www.transparentcable.com/index2.html

Happy reading.[/quote]

It's marketing to catch rich mugs. I think that only poorly constructed or inadequate cabling sounds bad. Once you use decent screened cable, quality connectors and thick enough copper in the speaker leads no further improvement will be possible regardless of how much is spent. Mains leads don't make any difference at all.

 

[Anton90125]

[quote user="Oldskool"] PLEASE justify to me £10,000 per metre for an RCA cable, £18,000 for 8m of speaker cable and £6000 for a component video cable.[/quote]

Its only what YOU (Not me or anyone else) hear that can justify that price. If you do blind testing and take some fairly common sense type precautions to eliminate those variables that can mislead you and you still hear a sound that is both different and pleasing to such an extent that well you have a near epiphany experience then (provided you have that kind of money) you might think its worth it.

You will also have to look at the cost of the cable in the context of your entire system. Assuming that these high cost cables do deliver, could you get a yet better sound by using the money to improve the actual equipment (Amps,speaker etc...)?

If you already have a system that has that level of resolution ( you would be very rich and £200,000 would not be an issue) then you could justify such a cost

As anyone who has read my posts know I am pro cables and believe they do make a difference and believe people who use science as a argument against cable expenditure as been in error (as they are treating an incomplete scientific modal as the finished article). But having said all that it is my opinion that for most of us with low cost systems, such cable would be a waste of money even though they may be as good as described. They could cause you much heartache as you start to hear deficiencies in you once beloved system.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Oldskool"]We seem to have a very mixed set of opinions here[/quote]We sure do! But reading this and other threads for a while now there seems to be a pattern emerging. Quite a few "non-believers" never mention the system they are trying the interconnects and/or speaker wire on. On the other hand almost all the posts I read from people owning an upmarket hifi system do seem to notice differences in cables. It's probably true that some manufacturers, like the one you mentioned, are over-charging... but then... it's not like What Hifi or anybody else in this forum are recommending them! I did buy some very affordable but well screened interconnect cable from ebay. (Gotham) For the money they are quite transparent and detailed, but boy do they take the life out of a recording! After a while I became indifferent of the music I was listening to and placed my old VDh back!

 

[Anton90125]

[quote user="Solomon1"] I did buy some very affordable but well screened interconnect cable from ebay. (Gotham) For the money they are quite transparent and detailed, but boy do they take the life out of a recording! After a while I became indifferent of the music I was listening to and placed my old VDh back![/quote]

Not all changes are necessarily good. Your old VDh were probably better or they better balanced the tonal qualities of your system.

 

[matthewpiano]

I've just changed my speaker cable from the Gale stuff to QED Micro and it has opened the sound up another level but without losing any of the warmth, musicality or soundstaging. There is greater air between instruments now and much more even response across the frequency range. Micro isn't an expensive cable, but its well constructed and certainly sounds good. It suits me well as I don't particularly like the brighter, sometimes even harsh, sound of silver cables. I find a high quality copper speaker cable provides a much better tonal balance.
I think the biggest issue with the cost of cables and accessories is whether or not it is in proportion to the quality and cost of the system being used. The old guide used to be 10% of the entire system budget, but I find 20% to be about the right level. Beyond that, as someone has already said, I think greater improvements can be made by upgrading the equipment itself. I also agree with the comments made suggesting that the cost isn't necessarily the best indicator. It is, at the end of the day, all about the sound. If a cable upgrade makes much more of a system, then its worth the cost. If it doesn't it isn't. Like all hi-fi, there are no absolute right or wrong answers, its about personal preferences. For me, the central point is that well chosen, good quality cables can lift a system from being good to being outstanding at its price point.

 

[Anonymous]

In addition to what I mentioned above: there is a slim chance that the detailed, lifeless reproduction I heard is in fact closest to what's on the source (cd). If that's the case, however, I rather listen to cables that affect the sound and make it more warm, enjoyable ... and (to me at least )closer to the original life performance. On the other hand....I just realized that almost all the music I hear is either reproduced through hifi or amplified (so in fact not really life, like a classical concert). Does anybody of us ever go to life concerts and compare this experience to our own equipment? That would be a real reference test.

 

[matthewpiano]

[quote user="Solomon1"]In addition to what I mentioned above: there is a slim chance that the detailed, lifeless reproduction I heard is in fact closest to what's on the source (cd).
If that's the case, however, I rather listen to cables that affect the sound and make it more warm, enjoyable ... and (to me at least )closer to the original life performance. I just realized that almost all the music I hear is either reproduced through hifi or amplified (so in fact not really life, like a classical concert). Does anybody of us ever go to life concerts and compare this experience to our own equipment?[/quote]

A very good point indeed!! I am a regular concert attender, both at the Bridgewater Hall for classical concerts and at other venues for folk, rock, jazz, and music theatre. I am constantly striving to get closer to the live sound. For me this is the main purpose of investing in good quality hi-fi equipment and its why I like my NAD amp so much. It captures the tonal qualities of instruments and voices so well and its soundstaging is superb without sounding false or over-played. Its also why I still take the vinyl side of my system seriously. I know some people who want reproduced music to blend into the background and be more domestically friendly and, for them, re-capturing live sound isn't the main thing. I don't want an easy listen or musical wallpaper. I want to be challenged as much at home as when listening to a live performance.

The hardest thing for me is that I am a pianist and listen to a lot of piano recordings. The piano is one of the hardest things to reproduce effectively and I think I'll be searching for better and better reproduction of my instrument through hi-fi for my entire life!!

 

[Thaiman]

[quote user="Graham_Thomas"] think there is no real difference [/quote]

There is a different between "you think" and actually "heard them"! I thought there could not be much different but then I was shocked! I can also understand if you don't believe me though, after all it doesn't make any sense!

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Graham_Thomas"]I think there is no real difference - and I've been up to Chrod Anthem and back down again with many makes along the way - it is snake oil or for rich playboys to say "guess how much that interceonnect was".[/quote]
To my astonishment I just found this post: http://whathifi.com/forums/p/2495/27716.aspx#27716 If you can't hear the difference, what on earth are you then doing in this 250 pound chord interconnect competition???????????????????

 

[Thaiman]

[quote user="Solomon1"][quote user="Graham_Thomas"]I think there is no real difference - and I've been up to Chrod Anthem and back down again with many makes along the way - it is snake oil or for rich playboys to say "guess how much that interceonnect was".[/quote]
To my astonishment I just found this post: http://whathifi.com/forums/p/2495/27716.aspx#27716 If you can't hear the difference, what on earth are you then doing in this 250 pound chord interconnect competition???????????????????[/quote]

LOL LOveryL.....

 

[Anonymous]

If we take this argument a little further, if there is no difference between interconnects surely there is no difference between amps and cd players? why even bother demoing stuff as surely it will all sound the same? total cobblers of course but its the same as the interconnects all sound the same argument.

Power cables anyone? I have some russ andrews mains cables and they significantly improved my sound. As they did with my mates who all had to have one as soon as they heard the difference it made to my system. I was at a demo session at a hi fi exhibition and there was a rep there from nordost demoing their cables.You would literally have to be deaf not to hear the difference between them. i think basically that anyone who says there is no difference between cables is

1) just taking this piss and wanting an online argument for the sake of it

2)completely deaf or tone deaf

3)deserving of an all in one plastic aiwa system as there is no point in owning a real hi fi if you cant hear the difference in components.

 

[Anonymous]

This arguement is absolute nonsense and to attack others posting here with (hopefully) genuine views is totally unproductive and against the principles of my original post.

Of course these are differences between CD players and amplifiers, they contain thousands of components including drive motors etc all of which are built to a price or a standard. The tolerances of these components and the design all contribute to the performance and in general, I believe there is the law of diminishing returns here. Double the price, 25% better, double again, 10% better, quadruple the price again, 5% better etc etc. Cables have no moving parts, no components, and are usually 2 cores of metal transferring a voltage/current from one place to another through a connector at each end.

Totally, different!

At your Nordost demo, you may well have to be deaf not to have heard the difference, so do you really believe that they would be really using a top quality cable against their own as a demo? Have you ever seen an HD disc demo (either Blu-Ray or HD DVD) where they have the HD image one side of the screen and the "normal" DVD image the other? Any muppet who thinks that the DVD image is "normal" in the first place deserves to get shafted. It's normally VHS quality to make the HD image look better. Similarly, next demo for Nordost, try asking them to compare their cable with that as used by our friend Thaiman here and see the response!

I think you have spent good money on good cables and good luck to you if you are happy with the results but I think you are naive in thinking that demo's are fair and you should be more tolerant of others views, even if they do not agree with yours. Nobody here is argueing, we are just agreeing to disagree and with the length of this thread, it has proven productive, certainly to me.

Diversifying slightly, could it be that our equipment, (certainly not mine), could be approaching or surpassing the quality of the original source? Even my equipment can detect a poorly recorded "pop" CD, and can certainly show a good quality recording as just that. With audio equipment specifications now producing responses WAY in excess of the capabilities of the human ear, (I never really understood why if you cannot hear it at high frequencies, ok on bass as you feel it) are we now entering the realm of Master Recordings, similar to Vinyl? If this IS the case, then what is this equipment price break, as spending more on better equipment will produce no sonic improvement.

And finally, I regularly hear the terms "warm", "bright" and "harsh" when describing sonic performance, far more often than "accurate". (Especially when describing cables). Does this mean we are tuning our system to what sounds best to US, rather than reproducing an accurate rendition of the original recording? If so, then have we actually reached the pinnacle of sound reproduction and then de-tuned it to suit ourselves?

I think we need more comments from a professional studio musician who can compare their live instrument sound to a reproduction of that sound. It's the only true test.

ANYONE?

 

[Anonymous]

Hi-Fi doesn't do the same job as original musical equipment, and people want to listen to different things when they listen to it. Warm, bright, whatever, we need a variety of different sounds to suit the variety of different ears we have.

If anybody out there is really confident that their system portrays the original music accurately like a live concert, then are they so confident they'd plug a bass guitar directly into it? Didn't think so ! (PS if anybody is tempted actually to try this, please don't, it's not a good idea).#

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Solomon1"][quote user="Graham_Thomas"]I think there is no real difference - and I've been up to Chrod Anthem and back down again with many makes along the way - it is snake oil or for rich playboys to say "guess how much that interceonnect was".[/quote]

To my astonishment I just found this post: http://whathifi.com/forums/p/2495/27716.aspx#27716 If you can't hear the difference, what on earth are you then doing in this 250 pound chord interconnect competition???????????????????
[/quote]

To sell them??????

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Oldskool"]This arguement is absolute nonsense and to attack others posting here with (hopefully) genuine views is totally unproductive and against the principles of my original post.

Of course these are differences between CD players and amplifiers, they contain thousands of components including drive motors etc all of which are built to a price or a standard. The tolerances of these components and the design all contribute to the performance and in general, I believe there is the law of diminishing returns here. Double the price, 25% better, double again, 10% better, quadruple the price again, 5% better etc etc. Cables have no moving parts, no components, and are usually 2 cores of metal transferring a voltage/current from one place to another through a connector at each end.
Totally, different!
At your Nordost demo, you may well have to be deaf not to have heard the difference, so do you really believe that they would be really using a top quality cable against their own as a demo? Have you ever seen an HD disc demo (either Blu-Ray or HD DVD) where they have the HD image one side of the screen and the "normal" DVD image the other? Any muppet who thinks that the DVD image is "normal" in the first place deserves to get shafted. It's normally VHS quality to make the HD image look better. Similarly, next demo for Nordost, try asking them to compare their cable with that as used by our friend Thaiman here and see the response!
I think you have spent good money on good cables and good luck to you if you are happy with the results but I think you are naive in thinking that demo's are fair and you should be more tolerant of others views, even if they do not agree with yours. Nobody here is argueing, we are just agreeing to disagree and with the length of this thread, it has proven productive, certainly to me.
Diversifying slightly, could it be that our equipment, (certainly not mine), could be approaching or surpassing the quality of the original source? Even my equipment can detect a poorly recorded "pop" CD, and can certainly show a good quality recording as just that. With audio equipment specifications now producing responses WAY in excess of the capabilities of the human ear, (I never really understood why if you cannot hear it at high frequencies, ok on bass as you feel it) are we now entering the realm of Master Recordings, similar to Vinyl? If this IS the case, then what is this equipment price break, as spending more on better equipment will produce no sonic improvement.
And finally, I regularly hear the terms "warm", "bright" and "harsh" when describing sonic performance, far more often than "accurate". (Especially when describing cables). Does this mean we are tuning our system to what sounds best to US, rather than reproducing an accurate rendition of the original recording? If so, then have we actually reached the pinnacle of sound reproduction and then de-tuned it to suit ourselves?
I think we need more comments from a professional studio musician who can compare their live instrument sound to a reproduction of that sound. It's the only true test.
ANYONE?
[/quote]

Well isnt this forum supposed to be informative to an extent? i dont know about you but i cant not comment on some of the utter rubbish that has been written by some people on this thread. Sure, be tolerant towards some comments but If someone tells me the hi fi equivalent of the earth is flat then i am going to have a go, and rightly so. My comment about separates being all the same was sarcastic and intended to make a point about just how stupid the "all interconnects sound the same and mains cables dont work" comments have been. All interconnects sound different and thats as unarguable and as true as 2+2=4 .Maybe someoene would like to argue that the moon is made of cheese?Maybe we should start a thread on that? as for the guy at the hi fi exhibition, he only demo'd nordost cables against nordost cables.Not other brands.I have also heard them in hi fi shops, or maybe the great cable manufacturer conspiracy extends to the retailers too.maybe you cant justify thousands on cables and its a bit of a rip off but dont tell me that noone will be able to hear the difference.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Oldskool"]

Diversifying slightly, could it be that our equipment, (certainly not mine), could be approaching or surpassing the quality of the original source? Even my equipment can detect a poorly recorded "pop" CD, and can certainly show a good quality recording as just that. [/quote] In a way, yes, but as you stated that's probably more due to the quality of the recording , mastering and/or the quality of the pressing.[quote user="Oldskool"]With audio equipment specifications now producing responses WAY in excess of the capabilities of the human ear[/quote] I kind of wonder where you got that from? That should imply no ordinary being can hear the difference between a cd being played and a real life concert. I know Philips is (or was at least) a great advocate of perfect sound forever, and although I'd like it that way, I'm sure I hear a difference .....and with my hand on my heart swear I' don't have super human hearing.[quote user="Oldskool"]

And finally, I regularly hear the terms "warm", "bright" and "harsh" when describing sonic performance, far more often than "accurate". (Especially when describing cables).[/quote] Apparently every component has a sonic signature, that is to say: not completely natural/neutral. That's why we have to tune, mix and match and have cables with a different sonic signature.[quote user="Oldskool"]Does this mean we are tuning our system to what sounds best to US, rather than reproducing an accurate rendition of the original recording? [/quote] I have to admit I don't know, simply because I don't attend that many life concerts. And then again, at the concert: do you hear the sound that is produced directly or via a microphone, amplified !? (Remember the sonic signature argument I made earlier.)So even a master recording, although most probably a definite improvement, would not do as a reference point, as it is heard through electronic equipment. Only life music could be a reference point.Think I talk nonsense? Here a point of view from a professional recording engineer: Tim de Paravicini. http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/990paravicini/ This article makes interesting reading too. Stereophile:A.J. van den Hul: Going Dutch http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/1286vanint/index.html

 

[Anonymous]

Here is my take.....zzzz.... First of all the biggest influence on the final sound is the speaker room interaction, your room will have a bigger effect on the sound than any cable will have.
How will the speaker work in my room? good question, that's why it is vital not to buy a product just because it has 5 stars, go listen for yourself, in your room, with your amplifier with your CD player, ALL kit sounds different, and how it interacts with your speakers and room again will effect the final sound.
We want to keep the signal as pure as possible, meaning good conductivity, clean tight connections, there are differences in cables, but are they worth the costs? Personally I think not, but that doesn't mean they are not there, I use oyaide (Japan) and acoustic revive connections, simply the best I have seen.
Todays music and MP3 deserve each other, but get some high quality recording, into a system that attention to detail has been paid, and you will hear just why it is worth going to that extra effort.

 

[Thaiman]

You boys do run on and on with a long posts! Short and simple.......Most of cables sounded too similar to worry about too much, some of them though are very well design/made and do make a lot of different. and sorry if it seem like I'm being bighead here.....I don't think anyone in this forum have gone through as many cables as I had! (apart from WHF team, obviously!)

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Fraziel"]My comment about separates being all the same was sarcastic and intended to make a point about just how stupid the "all interconnects sound the same and mains cables dont work" comments have been. [/quote]

Nobody has ever demonstrated that interconnects and mains leads really sound different. I can't hear any difference.

 

[Anonymous]

Anybody here that owns an AVi system or ATC active speakers ? As these manufacturers seem the most outspoken about the effect (or shall I say lack of effect) cables have. Both have some good arguments to support their views, so I'd be interested if anyone can confirm their claims??

 

[Thaiman]

I thought ATC was on about bi-wire speakers cables doesn't make any different rather than cables in general! Did I miss something? tell me more solomon..

 

[Anton90125]

[quote user="Nigel Proctor"]Nobody has ever demonstrated that interconnects and mains leads really sound different.[/quote]

I am not sure that is an accurate (or useful) statement given all the work that What HiFi ,Hifi Choice,Other Hifi Mags, People at home (doing their auditions) and Hifi Enthusiasts like Jon Risch (http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/index2.htm) have done. Jon can even back up is words with experimentation,measurements and results.

I am afraid nobody has ever demonstrated that interconnects and mains leads collectively don't really sound different either.

[quote user="Nigel Proctor"]I can't hear any difference.[/quote]

There can be alot of reasons for that which have nothing to do with cables.

 

[Anonymous]

[quote user="Anton90125"] I am afraid nobody has ever demonstrated that interconnects and mains leads collectively don't really sound different either.[/quote]

How about amplifiers? :O)

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12752.

It's very interesting to see how insulting those convinced otherwise become. Not dissimilar to here in fact.

 

[Anton90125]

Back in the late 80's (88 or 89) I went for a job interview at the BBC. Given their positive attitude to people with disabilities I thought I would have a go at applying for electrical engineering trainee post. The theoretical /circuit part of the tests were fairly easy (I was still fresh from uni.).

While I was there I had a number of interesting discussions about cables and biwiring. It seems even at the BBC there was no clear consensus between the engineers I talked to.

I withdraw my job application when it became abundantly clear that the physical nature of the job was well beyond my capabilities. I enjoyed my visit though.