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Burn in

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Ben K.

New member
Nov 6, 2010
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andyjm said:
Ben K. said:
I don't want to get involved in these endless debates on whether cables can or can't make a difference but I can't help but wonder why people keep referring to science? I'm a biologist which does not qualify me to comment either way in this debate however I have yet to see someone produce an article that has been published in a scientific journal supporting either side of the argument. Links to websites and things found on google are not credible in the world of science I'm afraid. I know some people are in engineering and I respect your views from that point of view but could other people stop referring to science unless they can produce published articles.
Davis, Fred E., "Effects of cable, Loudspeaker and Amplifier Interactions", JAES, vol. 39, no. 6 Jun 91

Used to be easy to find, the JAES (Journal of the Audio Engineering Society) have now put a paywall for non members. You may be able to find a pdf copy on another site to download. The paper is over 20 years old, but not much has changed in electrical conduction theory since then (or for the 100 years prior to that).
Thanks for that. You are the first person who has actually provided such a reference.
 

John Duncan

Well-known member
Jan 8, 2008
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cheeseboy said:
andyjm said:
Davis, Fred E., "Effects of cable, Loudspeaker and Amplifier Interactions", JAES, vol. 39, no. 6 Jun 91
link to a download of the paper here http://blog.audioworkshop.org/cables-speakers-and-amplifiers/ - it's an interesting read.

another interesting read is here http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_spkr_cable.pdf
I've just read the first paper. which suggests that speaker cable construction has an effect on sound (as does the combination of cable and amplifier). He also appears to be a scientist who isn't trying to sell me anything.
 

byakuya83

New member
Mar 14, 2011
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matt49 said:
Ben K. said:
I don't want to get involved in these endless debates on whether cables can or can't make a difference but I can't help but wonder why people keep referring to science? I'm a biologist which does not qualify me to comment either way in this debate however I have yet to see someone produce an article that has been published in a scientific journal supporting either side of the argument. Links to websites and things found on google are not credible in the world of science I'm afraid. I know some people are in engineering and I respect your views from that point of view but could other people stop referring to science unless they can produce published articles.
I agree. Too much Googling being passed off as 'science'.
The subject probably isn't important enough to warrant being published in a scientific journal. Are the tests referred to considered worthless and non-scientific because they haven't been published? What might you consider robustly scientific? What would you change?
 

cheeseboy

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Jul 17, 2012
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byakuya83 said:
The subject probably isn't important enough to warrant being published in a scientific journal. Are the tests referred to considered worthless and non-scientific because they haven't been published? What might you consider robustly scientific? What would you change?
in the academic/scientific world, unless you are published, people think that you are worthless. I've worked with enough professors and doctors to know that ego and reputation is a lot of the time more important to them than what they are actually doing. Hence one of the reasons Darwin held off so long from releasing the theory of evoloution origin of species thinggy. Shame really, if they all stopped bitching at each other and actually got on with it, we'd probably have the flying car by now...
 

andyjm

New member
Jul 20, 2012
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John Duncan said:
cheeseboy said:
andyjm said:
Davis, Fred E., "Effects of cable, Loudspeaker and Amplifier Interactions", JAES, vol. 39, no. 6 Jun 91
link to a download of the paper here http://blog.audioworkshop.org/cables-speakers-and-amplifiers/ - it's an interesting read.

another interesting read is here http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_spkr_cable.pdf
I've just read the first paper. which suggests that speaker cable construction has an effect on sound (as does the combination of cable and amplifier). He also appears to be a scientist who isn't trying to sell me anything.
Of course speaker cable construction has an effect on sound.

I was in two minds about posting details of the paper. These things always get misinterpreted. It has to be read with a basic understanding of the engineering behind it.

What the paper says is cables that have different physical construction (multi conductor vs 'shotgun', and thick vs thin) have different electrical properties (resistance, capacitance and inductance) and this can effect the frequency response of an amplifier / cable / speaker combination. No surprise there.

What is doesn't say is that two cables of approximately the same construction and similar cross sectional area will sound any different - or that there is any secret sauce hidden in speaker cables.

I would also point out that even given the large differences in cables tested, the spread of frequency response was generally less than 1dB at 20KHz, which even if the posters on this forum could hear 20KHz (and the vast majority won't), will not be detectable.
 

Supreme

New member
Jun 25, 2013
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John Duncan said:
cheeseboy said:
andyjm said:
Davis, Fred E., "Effects of cable, Loudspeaker and Amplifier Interactions", JAES, vol. 39, no. 6 Jun 91
link to a download of the paper here http://blog.audioworkshop.org/cables-speakers-and-amplifiers/ - it's an interesting read.

another interesting read is here http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_spkr_cable.pdf
I've just read the first paper. which suggests that speaker cable construction has an effect on sound (as does the combination of cable and amplifier). He also appears to be a scientist who isn't trying to sell me anything.
Two interesting papers that support cables making a difference to performance. It would seem that different cables are suited to different applications which is quite contrary to the marketeers model that cables get 'better' the more you spend on them.

Also interesting is in these papers are that the authors elude to cables having a synergy to the electronics being used, meaning most systems could differ in there cabling needs.
 

John Duncan

Well-known member
Jan 8, 2008
2,027
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byakuya83 said:
John Duncan said:
andyjm said:
Of course speaker cable construction has an effect on sound.
Thanks.
And burn-in? Does construction change the more music is played?
I'm not a mettalurgist so don't know, but my view of the likelihood of it being the case is such that it's not something I concern myself with. I just plug and go.

(In other words, I think burn-in is b-llocks, but YMMV)
 

TrevC

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2013
341
149
19,070
John Duncan said:
cheeseboy said:
andyjm said:
Davis, Fred E., "Effects of cable, Loudspeaker and Amplifier Interactions", JAES, vol. 39, no. 6 Jun 91
link to a download of the paper here http://blog.audioworkshop.org/cables-speakers-and-amplifiers/ - it's an interesting read.

another interesting read is here http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_spkr_cable.pdf
I've just read the first paper. which suggests that speaker cable construction has an effect on sound (as does the combination of cable and amplifier). He also appears to be a scientist who isn't trying to sell me anything.
He could be entirely mistaken of course, :cheer:

The second shows that signal can be lost along the cable, which is why you should use thick cables with low resitance.
 

The_Lhc

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Oct 16, 2008
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TrevC said:
He could be entirely mistaken of course, :cheer:
These are MEASURED results, I'll take those over idiotic guesswork every day of the week. You can do what you like.
 

TrevC

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2013
341
149
19,070
The_Lhc said:
TrevC said:
He could be entirely mistaken of course, :cheer:
These are MEASURED results, I'll take those over idiotic guesswork every day of the week. You can do what you like.
No guesswork from me. No overly complex claptap about skin effect either. Skin effect and cable capacitance is only important at radio frequencies, and I'll warrant this "paper" was commissioned by a cable company.
 

andyjm

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Jul 20, 2012
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John Duncan said:
andyjm said:
Of course speaker cable construction has an effect on sound.
Thanks.
... but unless you are under 5 years old, or swapping out bell flex for nice thick speaker cable, you won't be able to detect it.
 

John Duncan

Well-known member
Jan 8, 2008
2,027
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19,695
TrevC said:
The_Lhc said:
TrevC said:
He could be entirely mistaken of course, :cheer:
These are MEASURED results, I'll take those over idiotic guesswork every day of the week. You can do what you like.
No guesswork from me. No overly complex claptap about skin effect either. Skin effect and cable capacitance is only important at radio frequencies, and I'll warrant this "paper" was commissioned by a cable company.
So if a scientist who is not trying to sell us something says something you don't agree with, it must be because non-scientists who are trying to sell us something are making them say it?
 

The_Lhc

New member
Oct 16, 2008
1,176
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TrevC said:
The_Lhc said:
TrevC said:
He could be entirely mistaken of course, :cheer:
These are MEASURED results, I'll take those over idiotic guesswork every day of the week. You can do what you like.
No guesswork from me. No overly complex claptap about skin effect either. Skin effect and cable capacitance is only important at radio frequencies, and I'll warrant this "paper" was commissioned by a cable company.
Guesswork again then?
 

matt49

New member
Apr 7, 2013
51
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cheeseboy said:
in the academic/scientific world, unless you are published, people think that you are worthless. I've worked with enough professors and doctors to know that ego and reputation is a lot of the time more important to them than what they are actually doing.
As a member of that profession, obviously I'd disagree. Maybe you can let us know what you do for a living so we can slag it off. (Not that I would.)

cheeseboy said:
Hence one of the reasons Darwin held off so long from releasing the theory of evoloution origin of species thinggy. Shame really, if they all stopped bitching at each other and actually got on with it, we'd probably have the flying car by now...
It was one of the reasons, but a relatively minor one compared to his fear of offending his wife's and other people's religious sensibilities.
 

TrevC

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2013
341
149
19,070
John Duncan said:
TrevC said:
The_Lhc said:
TrevC said:
He could be entirely mistaken of course, :cheer:
These are MEASURED results, I'll take those over idiotic guesswork every day of the week. You can do what you like.
No guesswork from me. No overly complex claptap about skin effect either. Skin effect and cable capacitance is only important at radio frequencies, and I'll warrant this "paper" was commissioned by a cable company.
So if a scientist who is not trying to sell us something says something you don't agree with, it must be because non-scientists who are trying to sell us something are making them say it?
No, I'm not saying that. But it has been done before (can't name names, it will be deleted), so I'm suspicious.

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/skin-effect-relevance-in-speaker-cables

I don't think this guy sells speaker cables.
 

TrevC

Well-known member
Jun 12, 2013
341
149
19,070
The_Lhc said:
TrevC said:
The_Lhc said:
TrevC said:
He could be entirely mistaken of course, :cheer:
These are MEASURED results, I'll take those over idiotic guesswork every day of the week. You can do what you like.
No guesswork from me. No overly complex claptap about skin effect either. Skin effect and cable capacitance is only important at radio frequencies, and I'll warrant this "paper" was commissioned by a cable company.
Guesswork again then?
Ooh look, that paper sounds a bit techy, it must be true then.
 

andyjm

New member
Jul 20, 2012
15
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0
John Duncan said:
andyjm said:
... but unless you are under 5 years old, or swapping out bell flex for nice thick speaker cable, you won't be able to detect it.
Cool. Will this do?

Yep, though I wonder why you would have been using bell flex to wire up your speakers.
 

John Duncan

Well-known member
Jan 8, 2008
2,027
13
19,695
TrevC said:
The_Lhc said:
TrevC said:
The_Lhc said:
TrevC said:
He could be entirely mistaken of course, :cheer:
These are MEASURED results, I'll take those over idiotic guesswork every day of the week. You can do what you like.
No guesswork from me. No overly complex claptap about skin effect either. Skin effect and cable capacitance is only important at radio frequencies, and I'll warrant this "paper" was commissioned by a cable company.
Guesswork again then?
Ooh look, that paper sounds a bit techy, it must be true then.
Oh so now we have to differentiate between true science and not-true science?

I think I'm going to listen to some music through some speaker cables whose brand I forget.
 

Andrew Everard

New member
May 30, 2007
1,878
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0
andyjm said:
... but unless you are under 5 years old, or swapping out bell flex for nice thick speaker cable, you won't be able to detect it.
If you were under 5 years old, you might have other priorities

 

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