Bowers and Wilkins

[Tannoyed]

Hi,

I am new to this site but have been keen on Hifi for a great many years. I have just retired my much loved T185Dorset loudspeakers-long overdue you might well argue. I chose Bowers and Wilkins CM9 's as replacements and have had them for nearly 3 weeks now. All was well for 2 weeks until I tried playing some piano music. I noticed a very unpleasant buzz/resonance coming from the tweeters in both channels. It coincided with the moment that a piano note was struck from about an octave above middle C upwards. It lasts for the duration of the attack part of the envelope and removes any pleasure one might derive from listening to music of this kind. I have tried many different Cd's and swapped amplifiers, CD players etc. I even went back to the shop and listened to the pair they had set up in their demo room. The amp/cd were far superior to mine, but through CM9's, still that horrible rasping buzz. Even my wife can hear it as could one of the assistants in the shop so I am convinced that it is inherent in the speaker design. In all other respects they sound great. Has anyone else experienced this or am I just a rivet counter?

I hesitate to criticise the Gods of B and W who are it seems, held in universally high regard but I never had this problem with my Tannoys or indeed any other set up in the last 35 years. Advice would be much appreciated

 

[abacus]

I would normally suggest that there is a problem with the tweeter which is resonating at a specific frequency(s); however as it occurs on the dealers speakers this would seem to rule this out.

Try the recordings on other modern speakers to see if the problem still occurs, as if so then it may be that for the first time you are actually hearing what a piano should sound like. (The harder you hit the key the louder and less pure is the attack phase of the sound)

Another alternative is to go down to your nearest piano dealer and have him play the tunes you have on the recordings so that you can hear what it should actually sound like.

Hope this helps

Bill

 

[iceman16]

Hi,

I am new to this site but have been keen on Hifi for a great many years. I have just retired my much loved T185Dorset loudspeakers-long overdue you might well argue. I chose Bowers and Wilkins CM9 's as replacements and have had them for nearly 3 weeks now. All was well for 2 weeks until I tried playing some piano music. I noticed a very unpleasant buzz/resonance coming from the tweeters in both channels. It coincided with the moment that a piano note was struck from about an octave above middle C upwards. It lasts for the duration of the attack part of the envelope and removes any pleasure one might derive from listening to music of this kind. I have tried many different Cd's and swapped amplifiers, CD players etc. I even went back to the shop and listened to the pair they had set up in their demo room. The amp/cd were far superior to mine, but through CM9's, still that horrible rasping buzz. Even my wife can hear it as could one of the assistants in the shop so I am convinced that it is inherent in the speaker design. In all other respects they sound great. Has anyone else experienced this or am I just a rivet counter?

I hesitate to criticise the Gods of B and W who are it seems, held in universally high regard but I never had this problem with my Tannoys or indeed any other set up in the last 35 years. Advice would be much appreciated

Hi Tannoyed

Welcome to the forum.That's a bit odd. Does the buzzing sound only audible with piano music or with other genre of music you listened to?

 

[Tannoyed]

I have tried many other speakers/ headphones and the noise is not present with any other transducer of any kind (e.g. a modern mid range Tannoy). In 35 years of listening to Tannoy T185 Dorsets it never happened although admittedly the mid range is a little harsh with those. They were designed in the 70's after all!!

I have spoken to B and W and their response was rather along the lines of 'Are you Being served'- "They will ride up with wear sir". Well I have tried running them in and the noise is still present. With more complicated sounds it is not there- or rather you don't notice it!

It only shows when playing piano music (e.g. Eric Satie pieces) although it also shows on anything from Coldplay to Beethoven. It is not a case of hearing things which are on the recording but which other transducers cannot reproduce. If I play the piece on my piano at home the notes are pure and when observed with and oscilloscope connected to a speaker the waveform is as close to a sinewave as makes no difference. There is no clipping even though it sounds as if there is. I am extremely disappointed and will probably take them back.

B and W -great for music of many kinds but certainly not piano pieces.

Thanks for your comments- any further thoughts would be gratefully received.

 

[Tannoyed]

I have tried many other speakers/ headphones and the noise is not present with any other transducer of any kind (e.g. a modern mid range Tannoy). In 35 years of listening to Tannoy T185 Dorsets it never happened although admittedly the mid range is a little harsh with those. They were designed in the 70's after all!!

I have spoken to B and W and their response was rather along the lines of 'Are you Being served'- "They will ride up with wear sir". Well I have tried running them in and the noise is still present. With more complicated sounds it is not there- or rather you don't notice it!

It only shows when playing piano music (e.g. Eric Satie pieces) although it also shows on anything from Coldplay to Beethoven. It is not a case of hearing things which are on the recording but which other transducers cannot reproduce. If I play the piece on my piano at home the notes are pure and when observed with and oscilloscope connected to a speaker the waveform is as close to a sinewave as makes no difference. There is no clipping even though it sounds as if there is. I am extremely disappointed and will probably take them back.

B and W -great for music of many kinds but certainly not piano pieces.

Thanks for your comments- any further thoughts would be gratefully received.

 

[nopiano]

Most odd, indeed. I know piano is a very demanding test, and before I'd read your whole post I was thinking mistracking - but then I saw CD! Some recordings, especially analogue ones have a slight fuzz or modulation distortion, but this sounds more serious.

Is there anything that is vibrating on the cabinet, such as terminals, the grille fastening, or a trim of some type? Hard to believe an audible fault like that would be present on the demo models too. Puzzled!

 

[davedotco]

It strikes me that the OP has a better than usual idea of what a piano sounds like and the B&Ws are simply not up to the job.

I could offer some suggestions as why this may be the case but they really do not matter that much, the speakers are certainly not fit for (your) purpose. Explain this to your dealer, ask him to take back the B&Ws and chose something else.

Do it now while the speakers are still 'as new'.

 

[matt49]

It strikes me that the OP has a better than usual idea of what a piano sounds like and the B&Ws are simply not up to the job.

I could offer some suggestions as why this may be the case but they really do not matter that much, the speakers are certainly not fit for (your) purpose. Explain this to your dealer, ask him to take back the B&Ws and chose something else.

Do it now while the speakers are still 'as new'.

What Dave said.

It seems the OP has investigated the problem thoroughly and knows what a good pair of speakers ought to be giving him.

There's a lesson in this for all of us: when demoing speakers, be sure to play some well recorded solo piano.

*secret*

Matt

 

[Tannoyed]

I think that hits the nail on the head- the metallic tweeter- it feels like this is the problem. I don't listen to pure piano a great deal but I was astounded that such exotic and highly regarded speakers could make a hash of something so simple

Thanks for this suggestion.

 

[dangerouspartridge]

I've have just ordered some B&W 683 S2's from my local dealer and can't wait to get them home. I was considering trying the CM 9's as they are currently on offer, just £200 more than the 683's. However the delaer said they are extremely hard to drive; he hooked them up to his Roksan Caspian amp and he said it was no where near powerful enough and at one stage the speakers totally cut out. He also hooked them up to the new digital Roksan amp and why he said they sounded better, the amp still wasn't doing a good enough job of driving them.

Could the speaker wire have any effect on the sound; I have heard certain type of cable (think silver something or other....) gives a harsh sound on the B&W's. I may be talking rubbish!

 

[Tannoyed]

It seems that I am not entirely alone in my view:-

http://www.htguide.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-17320.html

 

[BigH]

I dont think B&Ws cheaper speakers are good for piano music I read comments by piano tuners about them. To me it sounds as though it could be a crossover problem. As Dave says best to try to exchange them for something else, try Tannoys and Kefs would be my suggestion.

 

[ISAC69]

I've have just ordered some B&W 683 S2's from my local dealer and can't wait to get them home. I was considering trying the CM 9's as they are currently on offer, just £200 more than the 683's. However the delaer said they are extremely hard to drive; he hooked them up to his Roksan Caspian amp and he said it was no where near powerful enough and at one stage the speakers totally cut out. He also hooked them up to the new digital Roksan amp and why he said they sounded better, the amp still wasn't doing a good enough job of driving them.

Could the speaker wire have any effect on the sound; I have heard certain type of cable (think silver something or other....) gives a harsh sound on the B&W's. I may be talking rubbish!

You aren't talking rubbish *clapping* silver cables tend to be harsh too - put them with the B&W CM

series ....*bomb*

Your dealer is correct the CM8 and the CM9 are extremely hard to drive and needs powerful and "warm" amplification to get the best of them.

For the OP I recommend to demo Proac , PMC and Spendor speakers .

 

[ISAC69]

I have tried many other speakers/ headphones and the noise is not present with any other transducer of any kind (e.g. a modern mid range Tannoy). In 35 years of listening to Tannoy T185 Dorsets it never happened although admittedly the mid range is a little harsh with those. They were designed in the 70's after all!!

I have spoken to B and W and their response was rather along the lines of 'Are you Being served'- "They will ride up with wear sir". Well I have tried running them in and the noise is still present. With more complicated sounds it is not there- or rather you don't notice it!

It only shows when playing piano music (e.g. Eric Satie pieces) although it also shows on anything from Coldplay to Beethoven. It is not a case of hearing things which are on the recording but which other transducers cannot reproduce. If I play the piece on my piano at home the notes are pure and when observed with and oscilloscope connected to a speaker the waveform is as close to a sinewave as makes no difference. There is no clipping even though it sounds as if there is. I am extremely disappointed and will probably take them back.

B and W -great for music of many kinds but certainly not piano pieces.

Thanks for your comments- any further thoughts would be gratefully received.

I suggest listen to other speakers carefully before buying to make sure

this problem will not come out again , I suspect it has something to do with the aluminium tweeter that tend to be a little bit harsh in general but I am not sure ,

try speakers with silk dome tweeters should be more smooth in nature .

Personally I prefer the 600 floorstanders series than the CM ( too much dry for my taste although the CM standmounts are lovely ) .

 

[abacus]

As the problem appears on yours and the dealer’s speakers then its possible B & W had a faulty batch of Tweeters that slipped through quality control, however if you can’t get any satisfaction from B & W get your money back and have a listen to some other speakers with your setup to see if they suit you better.

As to cables then there has never been any scientifically repeatable studies that have been able to prove they can alter the sound, yet there are countless that prove that they don’t, so just do some research and make your own decision.

Hope this helps

Bill

 

[davedotco]

Before coming to any solid conclusions I would returm to the dealer with two or three of the most difficult recordings.

Listen to the B&Ws and then to a couple or more price competitive models from other manufacturers. If the problem on the B&Ws persist, get something else, knowing there is a proplem will get to you, whatever you do to try and mitigate the situation.

 

[Tannoyed]

Hello again and thank you all for your suggestions. I have had a long hard think and have spent a lot of time listening. Last night I plugged a pair of cheap Eltax speakers into the amplifier and guess what- the problem (if it is one) was present with these, although far less severe. In fact, when you consider how cheap these speakers are they were incredibly good. I am more of the opinion that I need to invest in better piano recordings. There is one obvious test that I could perform. I could plug my Yamaha keyboard into the amp and play (albeit with extremely limited skill) the Satie pieces to which I have taken exception. Why I haven't done this before I don't know. It is a fairly good instrument and should sound reasonably clean in piano mode. Certainly cleaner than the sounds on the recordings that I have listened to.

I am inclined to think that the features which make the B and W speakers sound so good in most applications make them reveal defects, particularly of the kind that I have described. Everything in life is a compromise so perhaps I have been a little unfair to B and W. There isn't much internet noise about problems of this kind, in fact there is virtually none so I have to accept the fact that I may have unrealistic expectations! I think the reason I was surprised by what I heard is that normally I find it hard to discern subtle variations in quality because at the age of 54 my hearing is not all that it should be. The fact that I could hear a problem made me think that it must be a significant one.

With regard to cables, I am using brand new Chord cable of very short length. I have always shunned expensive cables, believing them to be in the same category as the emporers new suit of clothes. 'There ain't no substitute for cubes' as the americans say of their engines and so it is with cable in my view. Low resistance has to be the most important thing and I have always used heavy cables to minimise the voltage loss across the plumbing- I want as much as possible across the speaker. This makes me sceptical about the thinness of the Chord cable!

I don't know whether skin effect really has any impact up to 20kHz (which I can't hear any more anyway!) but there is a school of thought that Litz wire may help. It doesn't seem to be called that any more but with this type of wire, every strand of is insulated from all of the others to give maximum cross-sectional area for carrying higher frequencies. I doubt I would hear the difference anyway.

Just a few thoughts-probably talking rubbish!

Thanks for your suggestions

Jeremy

 

[Tannoyed]

Hi Davedotco

It did get to me. I took them back and got some Kefs. Heaven! At last speakers that don't enhance defects within a recording. Perhaps not to everyone's taste but I love them. Sevenoaks Sound and Vision was very helpful. Will go there again because I wasn't the easiest of customers to please. I still feel like the small boy pointing at the naked emporer though!

Perhaps it was all the radiation applied to my head a few years ago!!

thanks

Jeremy

 

[nopiano]

So glad you found a solution, and a great dealer too. Which KEFs?

 

[CnoEvil]

Which KEFs?

The CM9s fall right in between the R500 and R700....so could have gone with either.

 

[Tannoyed]

Hi

They are R700's. I think we have to accept that we all perceive sounds differently. In fact I think we fit broadly into a few groups, mine being old fogies who have had anything above 15kHz planed away!

These changes happen gradually so we don't notice them. For this reason I prefer the more 'in your face' sound of these Kefs. The B and W's were great-a bit restrained at the top end for me (old fogy again) but would have loved them but for their unfortunate trait of enhancing defects in recordings-particularly solo piano music. That wasn't my hearing, it was just there and very unpleasant. The Kefs don't do it and neither do any other transducers I have tried. For my wife to notice it (she is a very good pianist) it must have been bad!

 

[Tannoyed]

ISAC69

A very good description of the CM9 sound. But some people with different lug hole characteristics will probably love them for exactly that reason!

Cheers

J

 

[ISAC69]

Great you found a solution with the KEF . Sorry to say but the CM floorstanders series fall behind the high standard of B&W speakers , Once I heard them I didn't belive my ears :dry , harsh and laid back sound .

However the 600 , 800 and CM standmounts series are great .

 

[CnoEvil]

They are R700's. I think we have to accept that we all perceive sounds differently.....

.....or that the the R700s are just superior! *diablo*