Blu-ray High Definition Audio Discs - first thoughts

[ReValveiT]

5.1 is a totally different matter. More power to it. I'm sure it sounds great given it's a whole new multi-channel mix. No problems with that.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

I see. So Hi res is essential for the pros, but bog standard res is ok for us simple folk.

You're right, thought, we wouldn't understand hi res. I mean, isn't headroom the amount of space in your bowler?

Tongue in cheek, of course

 

[bigboss]

5.1 is a totally different matter. More power to it. I'm sure it sounds great given it's a whole new multi-channel mix. No problems with that.

Yes, I meant 5.1.

 

[ReValveiT]

I see. So Hi res is essential for the pros, but bog standard res is ok for us simple folk.

Yes.

 

[emperor's new clothes]

Hi ReValvIt,

As aluded to above, one mans meat etc. I bought remasters of Neil Youngs early albums and some are ghastly, IMHO. Log on to HD tracks and you can sample clips from their offerings. To my ears Rumours sounds Ok, Abraxas brash for example. Others will disagree. I am looking forward to GRRR because I heard Gimme Shelter on internet radio and it sounded better than my Cd version Don't realy care what the source is providing that it doesn't offend my ageing ears. I was weened on my dad's Quad valve amps, so bought Meridian and Marrantz hardware to suite my taste.

 

[busb]

I think any debate about the potential of BluRay for high quality audio has to look at the total package and not just the bigger numbers attached to the raw datastreams.

Take any CD, stick it in a CD player OR DVD player OR DVD-Audio player or SACD player OR BluRay player OR most games consoles OR most computers and press Play and *it*just*plays*.

Take a digital feed from the outputs of pretty much any of the above, and feed it to an external DAC, and the sound improves.

Neither of these things necessarily apply to a BluRay audio disc — they certainly didn't to DVD-Audio and there's no evidence that record company executives have become any more interested in ease of use or sound quality since that debacle.

On the basis of the small number of so-called "audio-only" BluRays I've tried over the last few years, the very best you can hope for is that the disc will halt on insertion till you turn the TV on and work through the (completely arbitrary) menus to select the sound format you want, while being assailed by corporate logos and background sound excerpts you don't wanna see or hear.

In most cases they simply start to play with *some* default format, probably not the one you want, and there's no way to set the player to default to a particular signal type the way an SACD player can be set to default to a layer. You have to stop playback, select the menus, select the signal, restart playback at the beginning (simply pressing play will typically restart where you stopped).

Similarly, attaching an external DAC is often futile because the digital outs are forceably downsampled to 24/48 at best for copyright reasons.

It's true that when you finally get to the playback, having switched off the TV you didn't want to switch on the first place, the sound quality of such discs, whether because of the higher resolution or superior mastering, does appear to be better than the same material on CD. But the hassle of getting to it...

In short, the combination of forced video navigation and forced use of limited quality internal DACs are likely to ruin the BD-audio experience (as it did the DVD-Audio one), and the utility of HFPA, or any other hires launch, depends on eliminating both from the outset.

I have no confidence at all that the suits responsible understand either issue.

My current BDP has a "Pure Audio" mode that blanks the video. No digital audio goes to the TV either. The TV doesn't have to be on though it could be set to automatically detect a disc being loaded & switch to that HDMI input. Most of my music listening is streamed over the internet via iTunes Match, the TV doesn't need to be on because can control it through either my iPad or iPhone. I do have the option of selecting music through the menus displayed on the TV if I wish.

To quote a para from Andrew E's article:

"So what’s on the disc is LPCM stereo at 192kHz/24-bit, 5.1-channel 192kHz/24-bit DTS-HD Master Audio, 7.1-channel 96kHz/24-bit DTS-HD MA, and – amazingly –9.1-channel Auro-3D 96kHz/24-bit."

This suggests that my player at least will feed the LPCM stream to my M-DAC up to 24bit 192k. I'm not sure whether outputting Hi Res to an external DAC is a copyright issue rather than a licencing one.

 

[Craig M.]

I see. So Hi res is essential for the pros, but bog standard res is ok for us simple folk.

You're right, thought, we wouldn't understand hi res. I mean, isn't headroom the amount of space in your bowler?

Tongue in cheek, of course

This link (clicky) will help explain why 'hi-res' is pointless in itself, and why 24 bit is essential for recording but not consumer playback (the answers rather than the OP). The only thing that matters is the recording and mastering, not the format or whether it is a higher bit-rate than what CD offers (not talking about 5.1). I can understand why these are being released on Bluray discs, but would prefer the marketing to concentrate on the high quality recording and mastering process, were appropriate. I suppose that wouldn't be much use when they start to release old recordings on the format though. As a format I don't see this one gaining any sort of momentum, and I suspect the people who are interested in 5.1 music are a tiny minority of the tiny minority who are interested in any kind of high quality music playback, although I'd be interested myself in the 5.1 mix if I had suitable equipment to play it back on - even if just out of curiosity.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

It's interesting that the critics, of which there are only a few, don't seem to have read the background material on the Hgh Res blu-ray, but trot out those old truisms which apply to SACD, CD, DVD Audio etc.

None of them seem to be wiling to listen to the new format, nor take it for what it is. Yes, it's a fear reaction (so my psychologist friend says) because it may force a change in to their world, and their beliefs.

 

[Craig M.]

It's interesting that the critics, of which there are only a few, don't seem to have read the background material on the Hgh Res blu-ray, but trot out those old truisms which apply to SACD, CD, DVD Audio etc.

None of them seem to be wiling to listen to the new format, nor take it for what it is. Yes, it's a fear reaction (so my psychologist friend says) because it may force a change in to their world, and their beliefs.

I've read it. I wonder what your psychologist friend would say about someone who denies the facts about the limitations of human hearing and their hifi system to carry on trotting out the same nonsense. CD as a format exceeds the capability of your hearing and hifi.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

And yet, recordings are mastered at higher resolutions than the CD standard. Why is that?

 

[Craig M.]

And yet, recordings are mastered at higher resolutions than the CD standard. Why is that?

Now it's your turn to do some reading. Read the link I provided, the Tech Ed. of S.o.S. magazine has rather kindly explained why.

Either we are at completely cross-purposes, or I'm at a loss as to what is so hard to understand about it.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Explained or justified? Remember, I don't do complex, I wash dishes for a living.

By the way, it's a brilliant format, you shoud leave your prejudices behind you and give it a go. As they say in the kitchen, the proof of the pudding is in the eating :cheers:

 

[GSB]

I don't do complex either,i plaster walls for a living.

All i know for a fact is that some cd's i have sound brilliant,a good few don't.

Some sacd's i have sound fantastic(becouse of the 5.1 mix)some don't.

Some of my dvd 5.1 music disks are good,as are some sky HD recordings.

I don't understand if this new format,resolution or whatever is better or it is indeed all in the mix...i suspect the latter.

I do wish tho the music industry would better serve those of us who not only enjoy listening to music,but spend a small fortune on speakers,amp's tt's and related stuff,ie:sort the cd's out :wall:

:cheers:

 

[the record spot]

It's also available in stereo 320kbps MP3 if you want – I know, a flagrant waste of data, but you could always downsample it to 128kbps and then throw the original away.

:clap:

 

[emperor's new clothes]

Daveloc wrote:

In most cases they simply start to play with *some* default format, probably not the one you want, and there's no way to set the player to default to a particular signal type the way an SACD player can be set to default to a layer. You have to stop playback, select the menus, select the signal, restart playback at the beginning (simply pressing play will typically restart where you stopped).

GRRR has arrived and your comments are spot on. Marrantz ud7007 and Sa 7007 normally work in harmony with BD HD formats and CDs and SACDs and automaticaly switch to the appropriate output. GRRR defaults to a 2 channel PCM /96 the amp says BLURAY DTS Neo 6 music by default and outputs a psuedo 5.1 of very dubious quality. Next turn on the plasma which reveals a very limited menu of 1-50 tracks with no names and the additional output option of HD dts and Dolby. Select one and the amp does not auto switch. After much frustration, the pure direct button hidden under a flap on the amp finally produces a coherent stereo output. Gone is the terrible, confused multi channel mishmash, woolly base and compression and the better recorded tracks are now more than a match for my CDs.

Detractors on this thread are correct, the GRRR example is more dogs dinner than dog's danglies.

 

[BigH]

Daveloc wrote:

In most cases they simply start to play with *some* default format, probably not the one you want, and there's no way to set the player to default to a particular signal type the way an SACD player can be set to default to a layer. You have to stop playback, select the menus, select the signal, restart playback at the beginning (simply pressing play will typically restart where you stopped).

GRRR has arrived and your comments are spot on. Marrantz ud7007 and Sa 7007 normally work in harmony with BD HD formats and CDs and SACDs and automaticaly switch to the appropriate output. GRRR defaults to a 2 channel PCM /96 the amp says BLURAY DTS Neo 6 music by default and outputs a psuedo 5.1 of very dubious quality. Next turn on the plasma which reveals a very limited menu of 1-50 tracks with no names and the additional output option of HD dts and Dolby. Select one and the amp does not auto switch. After much frustration, the pure direct button hidden under a flap on the amp finally produces a coherent stereo output. Gone is the terrible, confused multi channel mishmash, woolly base and compression and the better recorded tracks are now more than a match for my CDs.

Detractors on this thread are correct, the GRRR example is more dogs dinner than dog's danglies.

So from this can we deduce that 5.1 is only going to be any good on BD audio for new recordings and decent SACD 5.1s like Wish You Were Here? Maybe someone will make a BD player that behaves like a cd player?

 

[altruistic.lemon]

No, we deduce that some amps are difficult to setup

Haven't got mine yet, so will add to this when it arrives. Possibly my not liking the Stones isn't going to help the assessment.

 

[BigH]

No, we deduce that some amps are difficult to setup

Haven't got mine yet, so will add to this when it arrives. Possibly my not liking the Stones isn't going to help the assessment.

I thought you already had heard the Stones GRRR on BD audio?

Daveloc wrote "psuedo 5.1 of very dubious quality", he said the stereo was fine but not the 5.1.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

No I have the new classical discs only.

My Sony BD player defaults to DTS also and it was a simple menu choice to change this to PCM - comes up on the BD track listing. As to sound quality, haven't fiddled between the two as what come out already sounds spot on to me. Also don't have the CDs to do a comparison, which is why I ordered the Stones so I'll be able to.

 

[daveloc]

Maybe someone will make a BD player that behaves like a cd player?

This is sort-of-possible but it's not clear whether HFPA does it.

CD only has one format, so any player plays it.

SACD has three formats, the location of each is detectable in hardware so the players can be preset to whichever you want, and even default elsewhere if that one isn't available, but as 99% of the available titles are Music to Stroke Beards By, this doesn't help much.

DVD Audio was more complex, there were separate sectors for DVD-Video and DVD-Audio, and the discs could also be two-sided, so in theory up to four audio formats could be autodetected, but AFAIK, only one disc ever got this right: The Doobie Brothers "The Captain and Me". By far the better answer on DVD was just to emulate CD with a DVD-Video disc with no video and a single 24/96 PCM audio track, several specialist companies like Classic Records did just this but the major labels were so obsessed with multichannel at the time (like 3D video subsequently) they wouldn't even consider it.

BluRay doesn't have these options because the discs are neither multisector nor multisided, so all format detection and switching has to be done in software, which typically means bringing up video menus to do it. There is a way of using the colour buttons on the BD player remote to select audio format without using a TV http://www.pureaudio-bluray.com/format/ (includes link to AES recommendations), but this requires authoring the discs appropriately. While existing releases from 2L and Naxos use this method, it's not clear if HFPA does, and given the ratio of marketing fluff to technical data in the launch docs, I haven't been able to find out. Perhaps someone with the GRRR disc can try it?