Blu-ray dilemma!

[Liam19]

I've been using my PlayStation 3 for Blu-ray up til now, hooked up to my Panasonic TH-42PX70 via HDMI, and my Onkyo HTS5105 5.1 surround system via optical cable - and it has served me well.

But now the PS3 has begun freezing during playback and rejecting discs (amongst other glitches), and I am awaiting Sony's decision on whether or not it will be exchanged for a new/refurbished model. Now that the PS3's reliability has been called into question for the first time, I'm getting more and more tempted to add a stand-alone Blu-ray player into the mix.

I am considering the discontinued Panasonic DMP-BD35, which is still available in many places, and it seems a good option. WHF's Nov 2008 Group Test rates it above the PS3 in terms of picture and sound quality, and it is a mere 4.9cm tall, which is important since I have only 5.6cm of space in which to fit a Blu-ray player in my rack. But I am hung up on the fact it has no multichannel analogue outputs, which I could use to connect to my Onkyo receiver and get an upgrade in audio quality too (which would make the purchase even more worthwhile). I have also looked for a BD55 to solve this problem, but alas these seem to have disappeared completely by now.

I also considered the Sony BDP-S550, but at 7cm it is far too tall to fit in my available space. I could even have stretched to a new Panasonic DMP-BD80, but even this is slightly too tall at 6cm.

 So I'd like to put a few questions to WHF forum users:

1.) Do you think it'd be worth me having a stand-alone Blu-ray player (costing no more than £300) alongside my PlayStation 3 for Blu-ray and DVD playback? Is there really an even slightly noticeable difference in their performance?

2.) Should I go for the Panny BD35 and use an optical cable as I have done with the PS3, or would I be much better off trying to get        another player with multichannel analogue outs so I can enjoy HD audio?

Any input will be greatly appreciated. 

 

[Anonymous]

I bought the Panny DMP-BD60 which falls price wise in between the 2 panasonics you have suggested... the picture quality is fantastic and is pretty good spec wise for the money. The only issue is how long it takes for the discs to load.
Sorry to add another one to the list!!!

 

[professorhat]

My opinion? If you can get a player with the mutlichannel outputs to enjoy HD audio to fit in your rack somehow, it would be worth the outlay of a new player. If you can't, though undeniably the picture quality of the other players will be slightly better than the PS3, that increase isn't worth the money since you already have the PS3.

On the other hand, you could put the money you're going to spend on a new Blu-Ray player towards a new HD audio capable amp / receiver. Just a thought

 

[Liam19]

professorhat:
My opinion? If you can get a player with the mutlichannel outputs to enjoy HD audio to fit in your rack somehow, it would be worth the outlay of a new player. If you can't, though undeniably the picture quality of the other players will be slightly better than the PS3, that increase isn't worth the money since you already have the PS3.

On the other hand, you could put the money you're going to spend on a new Blu-Ray player towards a new HD audio capable amp / receiver. Just a thought

ÿ

I agree with you on the first point - getting both better picture and sound quality should make this a worthwhile purchase, and I'm becoming increasingly tempted by the new Panasonic DMP-BD80. With a bit of shuffling I should (fingers crossed) be able to fit it into the rack (I have neeeeearly 6cm space available), and its multichannel analogue outs and recent WHF 5-star review definitely bode well for me too!

The only issue is that it pushes the boundaries of my budget a bit - could anyone perhaps suggest the cheapest they've seen this player out there? Or alternatively the Sony BDP-S550 (which is my current second choice)?

Many thanks.

 

[Liam19]

I think I'm pretty much settled on the Panasonic DMP-BD80 now - found it at Amazon for £266.99, which seems like a good price for a product that has been well-received across the board. So now I'll be able to get HD audio using the multichannel analogue outs, and also hopefully enjoy a noticeably better picture than my PS3.

Just out of interest, does anyone else have any thoughts as to whether this is a good/worthwhile upgrade?

 

[Anonymous]

Liam19:I think I'm pretty much settled on the Panasonic DMP-BD80 now - found it at Amazon for £266.99, which seems like a good price for a product that has been well-received across the board. So now I'll be able to get HD audio using the multichannel analogue outs, and also hopefully enjoy a noticeably better picture than my PS3. YOU DEFINITELY WILL

Liam19:Just out of interest, does anyone else have any thoughts as to whether this is a good/worthwhile upgrade? YES, ABSOLUTELY

 

[Liam19]

ValianTX:Liam19:I think I'm pretty much settled on the Panasonic
DMP-BD80 now - found it at Amazon for £266.99, which seems like a good
price for a product that has been well-received across the board. So
now I'll be able to get HD audio using the multichannel analogue outs,
and also hopefully enjoy a noticeably better picture than my
PS3. YOU DEFINITELY WILL

Liam19:Just out of interest, does anyone else have any thoughts as to whether this is a good/worthwhile upgrade? YES, ABSOLUTELY
Lol thanks ValianTX, that makes me feel even better about my purchase!

Ordered the player last night, and just now picked up cables from Comet - three Philips gold-plated twin phono leads, £9.99 each (not Maplin-cheap, but hopefully of good enough quality). Can someone clarify if this is OK - I'm not entirely sure, is it OK to use one twin cable for front left and right, another twin cable for surround left and right, and a third twin cable for the center and subwoofer? Or do I need individual cables to each instead?

Any (more) help greatly appreciated!

 

[d4v3pum4]

You're correct, they are individual cables anyway for each channel (L/R) but in your case you're using them for FL/FR/RL/RR/CTR/SUB

Enjoy your new kit.

 

[Liam19]

First impressions of the BD-80 are mixed/positive - what impresses me most is the Blu-ray picture, which is noticeably cleaner, more stable and even sharper than the PS3. I really couldn't ask for better picture quality with BDs now, it is excellent.

I have mixed feelings about the audio, however - having done some listening and comparing between decoded DTS-HD/DTHD soundtracks over analogue and standard DTS/DD over coaxial, I'm not entirely convinced by the HD audio formats to be perfectly honest. I haven't listened enough yet to make a whole-hearted judgement, but my impression was that the Dolby TrueHD track on the 'Batman Begins' BD sounded quite lifeless in comparison to the DD track - smoother, more detailed and composed, perhaps, but with less punch and excitement. I'm aware that HD audio soundtracks need a higher volume, but even after this I just felt the track sounded a little limp. Time will tell whether or not I'll stick with these tracks on BDs,ÿor slip back to trusty old DTS/DD - which is a bit of a shame considering I stumped up for this player especially for the analogue outs and uncompressed audio.

DVD playback is also good, and impressively sharp from viewing distance - but upon closer inspection it seems a tad noisier than what the PS3 could pull off. Edges are sharper, but there seems to be slightly more in the way of blocking and jaggies visible. On the plus side, DVD soundtracks bitstreamed over coaxial and decoded by my Onkyo receiver sound pretty sensational.

The loading times are reasonable, but the player's interface is noticeably slower and clunkier than the superb PS3's.

Overall, I can say I'm happy with the purchase mainly due to the gorgeous Blu-ray picture quality, and it seems to do most other things at least as well as the PS3 did. I just hope to be more enamoured with the HD audio codecs over time...ÿ

 

[Tom Moreno]

Liam19:
First impressions of the BD-80 are mixed/positive - what impresses me most is the Blu-ray picture, which is noticeably cleaner, more stable and even sharper than the PS3. I really couldn't ask for better picture quality with BDs now, it is excellent.

I have mixed feelings about the audio, however - having done some listening and comparing between decoded DTS-HD/DTHD soundtracks over analogue and standard DTS/DD over coaxial, I'm not entirely convinced by the HD audio formats to be perfectly honest. I haven't listened enough yet to make a whole-hearted judgement, but my impression was that the Dolby TrueHD track on the 'Batman Begins' BD sounded quite lifeless in comparison to the DD track - smoother, more detailed and composed, perhaps, but with less punch and excitement. I'm aware that HD audio soundtracks need a higher volume, but even after this I just felt the track sounded a little limp. Time will tell whether or not I'll stick with these tracks on BDs, or slip back to trusty old DTS/DD - which is a bit of a shame considering I stumped up for this player especially for the analogue outs and uncompressed audio.

DVD playback is also good, and impressively sharp from viewing distance - but upon closer inspection it seems a tad noisier than what the PS3 could pull off. Edges are sharper, but there seems to be slightly more in the way of blocking and jaggies visible. On the plus side, DVD soundtracks bitstreamed over coaxial and decoded by my Onkyo receiver sound pretty sensational.

The loading times are reasonable, but the player's interface is noticeably slower and clunkier than the superb PS3's.

Overall, I can say I'm happy with the purchase mainly due to the gorgeous Blu-ray picture quality, and it seems to do most other things at least as well as the PS3 did. I just hope to be more enamoured with the HD audio codecs over time...

If you are finding that the Lossless Audio tracks seems "lifeless", "less detailed", and "less composed" than the DD/DTS tracks, I would venture to say there may be something very much amiss in your setup. I've not heard a single blu-ray that doesn't sound noticeably better (by some margin as well, hell my wife can even tell the difference a mile off and that's no mean feat) when listening to the lossless tracks compared to the lossy ones. If I were you I would recheck your setup.

Are you comparing your HD tracks input via 5.1 ch analogue inputs vs. the receiver decoding the lossy bitstreams via a digital input? If so, is it possible that the receiver is applying some sort of post-processing to the internal decoding that is not being applied to the multi-channel ins? I believe it may be possible that receivers that utilise setup utilities such as audyssey do not apply this signal processing to the multi-channel ins.

 

[Sliced Bread]

Tom Moreno:Liam19:
First impressions of the BD-80 are mixed/positive - what impresses me most is the Blu-ray picture, which is noticeably cleaner, more stable and even sharper than the PS3. I really couldn't ask for better picture quality with BDs now, it is excellent.

I have mixed feelings about the audio, however - having done some listening and comparing between decoded DTS-HD/DTHD soundtracks over analogue and standard DTS/DD over coaxial, I'm not entirely convinced by the HD audio formats to be perfectly honest. I haven't listened enough yet to make a whole-hearted judgement, but my impression was that the Dolby TrueHD track on the 'Batman Begins' BD sounded quite lifeless in comparison to the DD track - smoother, more detailed and composed, perhaps, but with less punch and excitement. I'm aware that HD audio soundtracks need a higher volume, but even after this I just felt the track sounded a little limp. Time will tell whether or not I'll stick with these tracks on BDs, or slip back to trusty old DTS/DD - which is a bit of a shame considering I stumped up for this player especially for the analogue outs and uncompressed audio.

DVD playback is also good, and impressively sharp from viewing distance - but upon closer inspection it seems a tad noisier than what the PS3 could pull off. Edges are sharper, but there seems to be slightly more in the way of blocking and jaggies visible. On the plus side, DVD soundtracks bitstreamed over coaxial and decoded by my Onkyo receiver sound pretty sensational.

The loading times are reasonable, but the player's interface is noticeably slower and clunkier than the superb PS3's.

Overall, I can say I'm happy with the purchase mainly due to the gorgeous Blu-ray picture quality, and it seems to do most other things at least as well as the PS3 did. I just hope to be more enamoured with the HD audio codecs over time...

If you are finding that the Lossless Audio tracks seems "lifeless", "less detailed", and "less composed" than the DD/DTS tracks, I would venture to say there may be something very much amiss in your setup. I've not heard a single blu-ray that doesn't sound noticeably better (by some margin as well, hell my wife can even tell the difference a mile off and that's no mean feat) when listening to the lossless tracks compared to the lossy ones. If I were you I would recheck your setup.

Are you comparing your HD tracks input via 5.1 ch analogue inputs vs. the receiver decoding the lossy bitstreams via a digital input? If so, is it possible that the receiver is applying some sort of post-processing to the internal decoding that is not being applied to the multi-channel ins? I believe it may be possible that receivers that utilise setup utilities such as audyssey do not apply this signal processing to the multi-channel ins.

I can't comment from personal experience as I don't have a BD player yet, however I have read that a few people have said that, while more detailed, the HD soundtrack for the Dark Night is less exciting that the Dolby Digital track. Why not try a few different films from Blockbusters to check that it's not just a symptom of how the film was mixed for the HD audio?

 

[Anonymous]

I was going to advise to hold off until the new players are released, pick a fast to load player rather than whats on offer now.

 

[Anonymous]

This sounds really odd. HD sound is far superior, and I hear it on every single blu-ray disc. Both True HD and DTS HD Master are unbelievable. Even Dolby DTS is far superior on a blu-ray disc.

You may want to check on your hook-ups!

 

[Tom Moreno]

JohnNewman: I can't comment from personal experience as I don't have a BD player yet, however I have read that a few people have said that, while more detailed, the HD soundtrack for the Dark Night is less exciting that the Dolby Digital track. Why not try a few different films from Blockbusters to check that it's not just a symptom of how the film was mixed for the HD audio?

Hi All,

Right, so after reading this last comment I thought "Let's not judge based on acquired experience," and I grabbed my DK BD off of the shelf and promptly loaded it into my deck. I want to preface this by saying that this is not meant to be a "this is the way it is and you all are wrong" malarky, but simply wanted to provide a detailed account of my findings so that it might help people achieve the optimum from their setups.

I cannot express enough my love for Warner's authoring decision to let the disk start the movie straight away without any previews or complex Java menu-loading. My system consists of a Panasonic DMP-BD30EK, Denon AVR-3808A, Mordaunt-Short MS-902i Fronts and Rears, 905i Centre, and Avant 309i Sub. My system was re-calibrated last Thursday using Audyssey and my SPL metre and I listen using the Audyssey Flat EQ setting with Dynamic EQ engaged. No extra Dolby PLIIx or anything else beyond what was previously listed is engaged (this includes the DRC settings in the amp having all been set to OFF). I used the Audio button on the BD remote to flip between the ENG DD5.1 track and the ENG TRUEHD5.1 track. Note that most of these moments are going to be chapter beginnings as it makes life easy to go go back over and over again. The first and most important thing I want to note is that there was no difference in level between the two tracks. The overall dynamics were equal to each other (unless otherwise noted) and I never had the slightest inclining to adjust volume to make up a difference between the two tracks (and I find that I am especially sensitive to even minute differences in level)

The first moment is actually the massive drum hit as the Warner film logo spins onto the screen. DD had a decent presentation and you were aware of the reverb coming off of the echos of the single drum hit. TRUEHD immediately sounded like more. The first (original) hit of the drum has a low end attack that gives you a feeling of violence that's missing from the DD track. The reverbs have a real sense of motion and drama as they flow out into the soundfield. Going back to the DD, those same reverbs don't carry the sense of motion and envelopment, they simply feel that they are there and that's all.

Very beginning of chapter two you have a great musical section with violins pulsating over brooding cellos that's kicked off with another great bass hit right at the very beginning. TRUEHD track gives that bass hit a greater sense of urgency and greater clarity to the Violins and especially the Cellos. In the DD track it seems as though the Violins have a slightly exaggerated level and have greater clarity than the rest of the mix which goes away as soon as the dialogue kicks in. Once the Dialogue arrives all the music occupies the same secondary stage. This one really blew me away as I've never outright noticed the algorithms in DD to focus attention on primary sounds (always going to be dialogue unless there's none present) as it works the compression on the rest of the stage.

Ch 13, Joker arrives at the fundraiser for Harvey Dent at Wayne's penthouse. The opening of the scene is very high energy orchestra combined with percussive synths punctuated by the Joker firing off his shotgun. This is probably the closest I've heard the two tracks perform, dynamics were almost identical. The difference is in the highs- the TRUEHD track has a high frequency sparkle that gives each of these extremely dynamic sounds that come in quick succession it's own punctuation mark if you will. The DD track in comparison sound as if the very top end has simply been rolled off. We're probably only talking about the top 2.5 to 5K, but when you swap back and forth you definitely hear it.

Ch 20, the famous underground chase explosion gratuitous schoolboy giggling scene. At the very beginning there is a distinct detail to the sound of the helicopter blades on the TRUEHD track and as the convoy detour to the under ground and meet up with the rubbish lorry of violence, all of the previous observations of high-frequency presence and detail still hold true, with an extra notation for the manner in which sound effects travel through the sound field BETWEEN the speakers. In DD there is good movement and the stage doesn't lack in quality, but the TRUEHD track makes the movement through the air of the room as the individual effect is panned from one speaker to another much more fluid and precise. You get the impression that if you paused the film after the Lorry hits the police car and drives off screen left, you could get up and walk 2/3rds of the way between your front left speaker and rear Left speaker and grab the sound right our of the air the localisation is so precise. The same is true when the Joker rocks up along side the police van with his automatic pistol and starts pinging shots all over the side of the van as we switch to an interior perspective. The bullets' ricochet conveys a proper sense of presence and movement in DD, while the TRUEHD brings an extra sense of urgency and dimension to the movement that gives you a greater sense of fear as the perspective switch forces us to become passengers in the back of the van as well.

I think I'm going to stop here as I could probably make this post as long as next month's copy of WHFSAV, but with the express intention of re-examining the Dark Knight's Dolby Digital track vs the TrueHD track without previous prejudices I think it's safe to say that the result was an overwhelming appraisal of the step forward that the Lossless track provides. This leads me to believe that if people are finding that the TrueHD track is in any way lacking compared to the DD track, attention must be paid to all of the variables of their setup that could be preventing them from getting all the enjoyment they can out of their investment.

 

[professorhat]

Hi Tom,

I also did a comparison of the two soundtracks on The Dark Knight after this was brought up in another thread and found unequivocally that the TrueHD soundtrack was superior.

Others still insist DD is better on that film - it's just one of those things that can't be explained (well not by me anyway!). As usual, my advice is to ensure everything is set up as it should be, try both and always go with what you prefer.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

professorhat:
Hi Tom,

I also did a comparison of the two soundtracks on The Dark Knight after this was brought up in another thread and found unequivocally that the TrueHD soundtrack was superior.

Others still insist DD is better on that film - it's just one of those things that can't be explained (well not by me anyway!). As usual, my advice is to ensure everything is set up as it should be, try both and always go with what you prefer.

We should remember that some instances, the difference will be the equipment used. A Pana mid level BD player decoding rather than a Denon 3808 will for sure make a difference. I also found that the Dolby TrueHD soundtrack was superb on that film. I have my receiver decoding rather than my BD player.

 

[Tom Moreno]

Gerrardasnails: We should remember that some instances, the difference will be the equipment used. A Pana mid level BD player decoding rather than a Denon 3808 will for sure make a difference. I also found that the Dolby TrueHD soundtrack was superb on that film. I have my receiver decoding rather than my BD player.

You're absolutely correct, I guess in my post what I was trying to convey in describing my setup is that the only variable getting changed was the soundtrack being played back on the disc. I would hope that the Panasonic BD80 would exhibit similar differences when decoding one format versus the other internally (WHFSAV gives Panny decks good marks in the sound dept).

I would double check the settings in the BD deck concerning Dynamic Range Compression as I find that the circuits that deal with this absolutely murder TrueHD tracks, even when it was being performed by my 3808. As soon as I discovered that this was set to auto and I disabled it completely some of the TrueHD BDs that I thought were extremely lacklustre all of a sudden came to life brilliantly.

Thanks to the appalling presentation of Transformers due to an error in the way the DRC bits are encoded that set me on the path of fury (and consultations on this forum) that sorted that one out.

 

[Liam19]

I think this is probably what makes the difference in my case - I'll be the first to admit that my budget Onkyo receiver + speaker package isn't the kind of setup that would get the best out of HD audio. The receiver itself is the package's strongest suit (essentially the same as the Onk 506), but the speakers are small and pretty flimsy. Having said that, I have always found that the setup delivers a performance with standard Dolby Digital and DTS that belies its low price. Soundtracks decoded by the amp sound meaty and exciting - up until now I bitstreamed DD/DTS tracks over optical from my PS3, and had little to complain about with either Blu-ray or DVD tracks. Granted I'm no real audiophile, but as a 20 year-old student even this kit beats what most of my friends have!

When I considered investing in a new standalone Blu-ray player, I settled on the relatively high-end Panasonic DMP-BD80 mainly because I wanted multichannel analogue outputs, so that I could get an audio upgrade to go along with a better picture (thus justifying the purchase to myself). Now it's all set up, with the BD80 decoding to LPCM onboard, and sending over analogue through the Onk - and it's slowly dawning on me that I need better kit to be able to fully appreciate such high-bitrate audio. As Gerrardasnails points out, HD audio decoded in a good receiver rather than onboard a player (however good it may be) is bound to result in a significant improvement. Decent speakers are no doubt hugely important too.

Don't get me wrong, I am happy with my new BD80 overall - it's just my first impression that my Onkyo does a better job of decoding audio. So the next step is a new receiver which can decode HD audio, which will probably have to wait a while now...

 

[Liam19]

Tom Moreno:
I would double check the settings in the BD deck concerning Dynamic Range Compression as I find that the circuits that deal with this absolutely murder TrueHD tracks, even when it was being performed by my 3808. ÿAs soon as I discovered that this was set to auto and I disabled it completely some of the TrueHD BDs that I thought were extremely lacklustre all of a sudden came to life brilliantly. ÿ

As for my settings, I have repeatedly checked that everything is right (I'm one of those people who's constantly fiddling with the remote!). Dynamic Range Compression is Off, and I'm pretty sure everything else is as it should be - of course, suggestions from anyone else regarding settings are welcome! I could very well have set something wrong!

I may still need to do some fiddling in order to get the speaker levels right though - I've jacked up the subwoofer level a lot for HD audio, and have found the rear speakers have needed a few extra dbs too, since some tracks seemed pretty front-heavy. For instance, the panning effect when the Joker shoots at Harvey Dent's police van in TDK (which so impressed me in 640kbps DD) seemed muted and less effective in TrueHD. A bit of tinkering seems to have rectified that.