Bi vs single?

[hybridauth_Facebook_10203552373284939]

If working to a budget (say £200 for 2 x 2M lengths) do folks favour bi or single wiring for speakers? Kit below.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Ive done it myself
To me no difference at all and just a waste of money.

If you bi amp thats a different matter

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_10203552373284939]

Thanks. I am beginning to agree!

 

[Alantiggger]

If working to a budget (say £200 for 2 x 2M lengths) do folks favour bi or single wiring for speakers? Kit below.

2 x 2m of what.....silver ?*ROFL*

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_10203552373284939]

You decide

 

[Andrewjvt]

Amp
Speaker
Source
Room acoustic
Cable

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Logically there should be no difference between bi-amping and bi-wiring, if one works so should the other.

Example an amp with two pairs of speaker outs delivers 60watts to each channel is the same as two 60watt amps ran with one set of wire to each individual speaker in the boxes.

We are talking a standard 2way design speaker.

To say one works and improves your sound and the other does not makes no sense.

So to anyone curious I'd always say try it..... See what happens.

 

[andyjm]

Logically there should be no difference between bi-amping and bi-wiring, if one works so should the other.

Example an amp with two pairs of speaker outs delivers 60watts to each channel is the same as two 60watt amps ran with one set of wire to each individual speaker in the boxes.

We are talking a standard 2way design speaker.

To say one works and improves your sound and the other does not makes no sense.

So to anyone curious I'd always say try it..... See what happens.

Firstly, bi-wiring is a bad idea. If done correctly (correctly badly) by removing the jumper at the speaker, it can lead to a bump in frequency response of the speaker at the crossover point. To be fair, you might be looking for that, but my guess is probably not. Don't do it.

If you really want to run two wires, keep the jumper in place on the speaker. That will effectively parallel up the cables, lowering the cable resistance which is always a good idea.

Thompson, I am afraid that there is a world of difference between using two active devices to power two separate drivers, and running two cables from a single active device. I still don't think that is a good idea, but please take my word for it, it is very different.

What does make sense is an active setup, where the crossover is placed before the amps and then two amps power the drivers in the speaker seperately. High power crossovers in speakers are dreadful (ever looked at one?), far better to have a decent line level filter prior to the amps.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Logically there should be no difference between bi-amping and bi-wiring, if one works so should the other.

Example an amp with two pairs of speaker outs delivers 60watts to each channel is the same as two 60watt amps ran with one set of wire to each individual speaker in the boxes.

We are talking a standard 2way design speaker.

To say one works and improves your sound and the other does not makes no sense.

So to anyone curious I'd always say try it..... See what happens.

Firstly, bi-wiring is a bad idea. If done correctly (correctly badly) by removing the jumper at the speaker, it can lead to a bump in frequency response of the speaker at the crossover point.  To be fair, you might be looking for that, but my guess is probably not.  Don't do it.

If you really want to run two wires, keep the jumper in place on the speaker. That will effectively parallel up the cables, lowering the cable resistance which is always a good idea.

Thompson, I am afraid that there is a world of difference between using two active devices to power two separate drivers, and running two cables from a single active device.  I still don't think that is a good idea, but please take my word for it, it is very different.

What does make sense is an active setup, where the crossover is placed before the amps and then two amps power the drivers in the speaker seperately.  High power crossovers in speakers are dreadful (ever looked at one?), far better to have a decent line level filter prior to the amps.

Naaah I'll not take your word for anything.

A 60wpc amp that has the psu to drive 2pairs of speaker out, How will that differ from two 60wpc amps single wired to each driver......?

We both know a tweeter does not represent a significant
load.

So, please go ahead and explain why these two types of wiring differ?

From an amp with a single pair of speaker outs though running two sets of wires could have a negative affect.

But an amp with 2 pairs of speaker outs?

 

[davedotco]

Naaah I'll not take your word for anything.

A 60wpc amp that has the psu to drive 2pairs of speaker out, How will that differ from two 60wpc amps single wired to each driver......?

We both know a tweeter does not represent a significant load.

So, please go ahead and explain why these two types of wiring differ?

From an amp with a single pair of speaker outs though running two sets of wires could have a negative affect.

But an amp with 2 pairs of speaker outs?

The wiring is different because two speakers, probably in parallel, have a very different impedance to a single pair of speakers, this will effect the performance of the amplifier.

If you are talking about passive bi-amping as opposed to bi-wiring then this is a different situation. Using separate amplifiers to drive the bass and tweeter separately may seem like a good idea but in reality the passive crossovers are still in circuit so any improvement will be minimal.

Worth trying if it is not costing anything but once you get past the 'wow I'm using two power amps' nonsense it is unlikely that you will hear a significant difference.

Fully active, now that is a different matter entirely.

 

[abacus]

Logically there should be no difference between bi-amping and bi-wiring, if one works so should the other.

Example an amp with two pairs of speaker outs delivers 60watts to each channel is the same as two 60watt amps ran with one set of wire to each individual speaker in the boxes.

We are talking a standard 2way design speaker.

To say one works and improves your sound and the other does not makes no sense.

So to anyone curious I'd always say try it..... See what happens.

Firstly, bi-wiring is a bad idea. If done correctly (correctly badly) by removing the jumper at the speaker, it can lead to a bump in frequency response of the speaker at the crossover point. To be fair, you might be looking for that, but my guess is probably not. Don't do it.

If you really want to run two wires, keep the jumper in place on the speaker. That will effectively parallel up the cables, lowering the cable resistance which is always a good idea.

Thompson, I am afraid that there is a world of difference between using two active devices to power two separate drivers, and running two cables from a single active device. I still don't think that is a good idea, but please take my word for it, it is very different.

What does make sense is an active setup, where the crossover is placed before the amps and then two amps power the drivers in the speaker seperately. High power crossovers in speakers are dreadful (ever looked at one?), far better to have a decent line level filter prior to the amps.

Naaah I'll not take your word for anything.

A 60wpc amp that has the psu to drive 2pairs of speaker out, How will that differ from two 60wpc amps single wired to each driver......?

We both know a tweeter does not represent a significant load.

So, please go ahead and explain why these two types of wiring differ?

From an amp with a single pair of speaker outs though running two sets of wires could have a negative affect.

But an amp with 2 pairs of speaker outs?

Bi-Wiring just moves the jumper/link to the amplifier terminals rather than having it on the back of the speakers, this moving of the jumpers adds additional resistance between the LF/HF speakers which takes the speaker outside of what the manufacturer designed it for.

Bi-Amping requires 2 separate stereo amplifiers (Usually an integrated amp with the addition of an power amp), with one amplifier feeding the HF and a separate amplifier feeding the LF, this has the advantage of completely isolating the LF/LF units thus preventing them interfering with each other. (The passive LP/HP filters remain)

Active speakers take this further by moving the crossover before the power amps, which as it is low level, can be designed more accurately for optimum speaker matching.

Hope this helps

Bill

 

[MickyBlue]

If working to a budget (say £200 for 2 x 2M lengths) do folks favour bi or single wiring for speakers? Kit below.

with the kit you have i would recommend a single wire speaker cable, i would steer clear of silver coated cables and for your system i would recommend a good quality copper cable, try and borrow a few pairs from your dealer if possible and try them in your system, i doubt you will need to spend more than £100

 

[Andrewjvt]

Apology to op and off topic
Hey just read your signiture

Nice system btw
How does the rel sub sound with the ls 50s?

 

[MickyBlue]

stunning in a word, still bedding in the sub but outstanding results so far.

 

[Mr beck]

Hi david,

Have you tried taking your jumpers out and replacing them with good quality speaker cable? Also Some people here say cables make no differnce, but i took advice and made the jump and used 4mm van damme cable which is cheaper than most, and i was blown away with the change in sound. I tried bi wiring and had no change. Im not an expert by any means but these options worked for me, at the end of the day, one thing ive learnt so far is try these things for your own ears and see.

 

[Mr beck]

Hi david,

Have you tried taking your jumpers out and replacing them with good quality speaker cable? Also Some people here say cables make no differnce, but i took advice and made the jump and used 4mm van damme cable which is cheaper than most, and i was blown away with the change in sound. I tried bi wiring and had no change. Im not an expert by any means but these options worked for me, at the end of the day, one thing ive learnt so far is try these things for your own ears and see.

 

[abacus]

Go to your local professional music store and ask their advice, as they will give you the appropriate cables for the job, (The ones that are used to produce and master the film & music you listen too) which will be of a much better quality (In construction and build) then the cables produced by HI Fi cable manufactures (And promoted by some dealers) at a fraction of the cost. (So called Hi Fi cables are the biggest rip off on the planet today so dont get conned into buying them (Hopefully in the not too distant future they will disappear as a lot of Hi Fi cable manufactures are being investigated by trading standards & the ASA due to the unsubstantiated claims being made)

Hope this helps

Bill

 

[Covenanter]

Go to your local professional music store and ask their advice, as they will give you the appropriate cables for the job, (The ones that are used to produce and master the film & music you listen too) which will be of a much better quality (In construction and build) then the cables produced by HI Fi cable manufactures (And promoted by some dealers) at a fraction of the cost. (So called Hi Fi cables are the biggest rip off on the planet today so dont get conned into buying them (Hopefully in the not too distant future they will disappear as a lot of Hi Fi cable manufactures are being investigated by trading standards & the ASA due to the unsubstantiated claims being made)

Hope this helps

Bill

+1

Chris

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_10203552373284939]

Interesting take on this! My system can accept XLR cables which I guess are more commonly used for pro music. If you have any suggestions on brands or shops?

 

[andyjm]

Interesting take on this! My system can accept XLR cables which I guess are more commonly used for pro music. If you have any suggestions on brands or shops?

XLR connectors and balanced cables are used by pros because pros need them. If you are planning on taking your system on the road, using long interconnects in close proximity to lighting rigs, or stretched across a studio floor, then go with the XLR / balanced interconnects. If you have 50cm of interconnect stuffed behind the equipment on a shelf, don't bother.

XLR / balanced connections in of themselves offer no quality improvement, just a resistance to EM noise and the ability to drive long cables. Depending on the implementation, there may be a small quality penalty to pay using balanced vs a standard single ended setup.

 

[CnoEvil]

It is misleading to suggest that all the films and music one listens to, are produced and mastered using cheap cables. Cardas, Van den Hul, MIT, Kimber and Transparent are just some of the brands also used in studios.

The arguments about the reason for this and any benefits ensuing from it, will depend on your point of view.

 

[abacus]

It is misleading to suggest that all the films and music one listens to, are produced and mastered using cheap cables. Cardas, Van den Hul, MIT, Kimber and Transparent are just some of the brands also used in studios.

The arguments about the reason for this and any benefits ensuing from it, will depend on your point of view.

I did not mention anything about cheap cables, just that you can get a top quality cable for a fraction of the price that HI Fi cable manufacturers charge for a lesser product. (Hence the term rip off)

I suggest you do some more research into studios and not belive what HI Fi cable manufactures tell you, as the cable you mention would not be used in studios due to them being sub standard for this type of use. (As are virtually all cables produced by Hi Fi cable manufactures)

I also suggest you do some research on how cables are made, (They are not bespoke like some Hi Fi cable manufactures try and make you believe)

Bill

 

[CnoEvil]

You said that recording studios avoid overpriced "hifi" cables, presumably using the "pro stuff", from the likes of Mogami and Van Damme...which in comparison, are cheap.

My research shows that, for example:

- Skywalker Sound use MIT
- BOP Studios, designed by Tom Hidley, and probably the most lavish in the world, use Van Den Hul Silver.
- Peter Gabriel's Real World Studio, use Kimber.
- Bob Ludwig uses Transparent Cables in his Gateway Studio.
- David Gilmore at Astoria, uses Kimber
- Ocean Way and Grundman Mastering are wired with Cardas.

Please feel free to check this for yourself...for example there is a whole write-up on BOP by Sound on Sound.

 

[andyjm]

You said that recording studios avoid overpriced "hifi" cables, presumably using the "pro stuff", from the likes of Mogami and Van Damme...which in comparison, are cheap.

My research shows that, for example:

- Skywalker Sound use MIT - BOP Studios, designed by Tom Hidley, and probably the most lavish in the world, use Van Den Hul Silver. - Peter Gabriel's Real World Studio, use Kimber. - Bob Ludwig uses Transparent Cables in his Gateway Studio. - David Gilmore at Astoria, uses Kimber - Ocean Way and Grundman Mastering are wired with Cardas.

Please feel free to check this for yourself...for example there is a whole write-up on BOP by Sound on Sound.

Lets suppose you manage a studio. You need to do a refurb, and some cable company says 'let us supply your cables for free' What do you do? .....tough choice.

I found an article some time back about either Air Studios or Abbey Road, I can't remember which. They had updated their studios and a 'name' had supplied the cables. The best the studio manager could say was that 'the cable was easy to strip'. Quite the endorsement.

Although it is ancient history, I have designed studio equipment for a well known broadcaster, including specifying cables. For those interested, Canford carry BBC specified cables - www.canford.com - search for 'BBC' on their site and you are able to find cables to BBC spec. Strangely, no brand names appear. Clearly there must be some mistake.

 

[CnoEvil]

That's a different argument. Abacus said that Hifi brand cables were not used in studios, so I simply gave some examples of where they are used.

You may argue, that in every case that I have mentioned, it was a case of getting them free/cheaply, but unless you were personally involved in the job, that is speculation....just as I can speculate that they were used because of the improvement that they brought. Maybe it's a bit of both.

BTW. I am not arguing about the benefits of cables, or that using sensible Pro Cables must be a mistake....Only that hifi cables are used in some studios.