Better mastered music could be on the way!

[manicm]

'openly admitted he regularly downloads music illegally and he doesn't think it's a big issue'

And that criminally equates to MirrenBoy wanting to give away/sell his CDs while keeping them ripped? Well let me pose this to OD; say you had a chunk of CDs which you ripped on your hard drive, and now those CDs get stolen, do you now wipe off that hard drive?

Yeah right.

No, you re-purchase them with your insurance money. I have ensured both my CD and DVD / blu ray collections are fully insured, as I am sure everyone else with any sense has.

And if one doesn't then he/she is breaking the law? Is that why your title BenLaw, still I suspect the irony of your avatar is lost on you.

 

[Anonymous]

Started with a rack system Sanyo then discovered What hifi and went along to s proper hifi shop and got an Arcam system with haybrook HB1 speakers. Personally I would rather have a right good system than have a fancy car sitting outside the door simply because music bring much more pleasure. We all work hard for our pleasures they don’t come on a plate.
Have already written there are a lot of bad 24bit recordings out there that are questionable. I don’t know how to measure them and to be honest I’m not interested. Only my ears can tell good from bad. There are good ones too. It’s like the Mobile Fidelity CD’s. The Nivermind mix is incredible while the 24bit version suffers from loudness and sounds muchy for it.

 

[manicm]

Hmmm, now where is that receipt of that Prefab Sprout: Jordan The Comeback CD I forced my parents to buy me for my 17th birthday???? Does that store even exist anymore? :wall: :doh: :? Oh enforcers here, where were you all those years ago :rant:

 

[Alec]

Hmmm, now where is that receipt of that Prefab Sprout: Jordan The Comeback CD I forced my parents to buy me for my 17th birthday???? Does that store even exist anymore? :wall: :doh: :? Oh enforcers here, where were you all those years ago :rant:

Awww, you're over-tired, bless ya.

 

[manicm]

Hmmm, now where is that receipt of that Prefab Sprout: Jordan The Comeback CD I forced my parents to buy me for my 17th birthday???? Does that store even exist anymore? :wall: :doh: :? Oh enforcers here, where were you all those years ago :rant:

Awww, you're over-tired, bless ya.

And on that note I shall get some shut-eye Alec

 

[the record spot]

Hmmm, now where is that receipt of that Prefab Sprout: Jordan The Comeback CD I forced my parents to buy me for my 17th birthday???? Does that store even exist anymore? :wall: :doh: :? Oh enforcers here, where were you all those years ago :rant:

Awww, you're over-tired, bless ya.

:rofl: :rofl:

 

[CnoEvil]

aaand....better mastered music could be on the way! :O

 

[the record spot]

Better mastered music has been with us for years Cno, but it's just not followed across the (mixing) board. For every Barry Diament or Joe Gastwirt, there's somebody who's busy crunching something up into a near unlistenable mess.

 

[CnoEvil]

Better mastered music has been with us for years Cno, but it's just not followed across the (mixing) board. For every Barry Diament or Joe Gastwirt, there's somebody who's busy crunching something up into a near unlistenable mess.

Not disagreeing......but giving a gentle reminder of what we're all supposed to be discussing.

 

[steve_1979]

Here's a reminder of what the loudness war is all about.

The Red Hot Chili Peppers album 'Californication' is famous for being one of the worst victims of the loudness war. The retail released CD version of this album is so bad that I actually thought the speakers were broken the first time I heard it on a decent hifi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Californication_(album)

 

[the record spot]

Hmmm, now where is that receipt of that Prefab Sprout: Jordan The Comeback CD I forced my parents to buy me for my 17th birthday???? Does that store even exist anymore? :wall: :doh: :? Oh enforcers here, where were you all those years ago :rant:

That would've been your parents responsibility - nae luck son!

Jings, out of all the CDs ye've got, you had to pick to one you never bought... #epicfail

 

[shooter]

The point is that they should both have the same amount of dynamic range.

They do.

No they do not.

Please take a careful look at these three pictures again. The downloaded Linn MP3 is differerent to the 'no compromise' studio FLAC version. But the MP3 that I converted myself looks (and sounds) exactly the same as the 24bit FLAC version.

Downloaded Linn MP3

Downloaded Linn 24bit FLAC (this is the 'no compromise' studio mastered version)

My MP3 converted from the Linn 24bit FLAC file

Yes see it now.

:cheers:

 

[shooter]

The best speakers in the world only have a continuous SPL of 120db's, likes of BW and ATC's. And with room noise around 30 db's there is only around 90db's of listenable range, with lesser (normal) speakers around 75 to 80db's, 13bit.

 

[jcbrum]

. . . around 90db's of listenable range, with lesser (normal) speakers around 75 to 80db's, 13bit.

Which is probably equivalent to, or a bit better than the best vinyl, most of which is about 10 to 12 bit equivalency, and can sound extremely good.

Properly implemented 16 bit CD sounds wonderful, with no surface noise, no end-of-side distortion, and dynamic range which exceeds human hearing and room environments.

Whilst 24 bit is necessary in the digital recording domain only (for mathematical reasons), no replay system can exceed approx 20 bit performance due to thermal noise at normal temperatures. Even then human hearing cannot discern that level of performance by a long chalk.

Having made a 24 bit recording, there is no reason why it should not be used for replay purposes, other than file sizes, which consume bandwidth, but it is not possible for humans to appreciate anything better than 16 bit.

Sampling rates higher than 44kHz do not provide any humanly audible information, in the replay environment, but they do make the construction of the recording equipment slightly easier (filter slopes, etc), Even this advantage is diminished by modern digital technology.

A well recorded, and well produced (sensibly mastered), recording is a pleasure to listen to, in the replay environment, regardless of medium or format.

JC

 

[steve_1979]

Yes see it now.

:cheers:

:cheers:

 

[AlmaataKZ]

. . . around 90db's of listenable range, with lesser (normal) speakers around 75 to 80db's, 13bit.

Which is probably equivalent to, or a bit better than the best vinyl, most of which is about 10 to 12 bit equivalency, and can sound extremely good.

Properly implemented 16 bit CD sounds wonderful, with no surface noise, no end-of-side distortion, and dynamic range which exceeds human hearing and room environments.

Whilst 24 bit is necessary in the digital recording domain only (for mathematical reasons), no replay system can exceed approx 20 bit performance due to thermal noise at normal temperatures. Even then human hearing cannot discern that level of performance by a long chalk.

Having made a 24 bit recording, there is no reason why it should not be used for replay purposes, other than file sizes, which consume bandwidth, but it is not possible for humans to appreciate anything better than 16 bit.

Sampling rates higher than 44kHz do not provide any humanly audible information, in the replay environment, but they do make the construction of the recording equipment slightly easier (filter slopes, etc), Even this advantage is diminished by modern digital technology.

A well recorded, and well produced (sensibly mastered), recording is a pleasure to listen to, in the replay environment, regardless of medium or format.

JC

good posting. we need more posts like this! improves S/N ratio.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

Here's a reminder of what the loudness war is all about.

The Red Hot Chili Peppers album 'Californication' is famous for being one of the worst victims of the loudness war. The retail released CD version of this album is so bad that I actually thought the speakers were broken the first time I heard it on a decent hifi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Californication_(album)

it is horrible indeed. every time a track from this album comes up in a playlist I have to reach for the remote to turn the vol down.

Saw in the news yesterday about a new American regulation banning TV ads with increased loudness/compressed DR. Anybody else seen that? Good news!

 

[steve_1979]

Here's a reminder of what the loudness war is all about.

The Red Hot Chili Peppers album 'Californication' is famous for being one of the worst victims of the loudness war. The retail released CD version of this album is so bad that I actually thought the speakers were broken the first time I heard it on a decent hifi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Californication_(album)

Here's a (very loosely) related thread on the AVI forum that you might find interesting.

http://hddaudio.net/viewtopic.php?id=5551

 

[AlmaataKZ]

Here it is:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/calm-act-goes-into-effect-today-silences-loud-tv-commercials/

Worth a proper post in the 'news' section here I would think.

 

[SteveR750]

THERE IS NO NEED FOR THERE TO BE ANY DIFFERENCE AT ALL!

But there clearly is, more important then why do you think there is, and (I'm presuming the motivation for all the analaysis) why do you think there actually should not?

When an MP3 is converted from the studio mastered version of the music it sounds identical to the 'no compromise' 24bit FLAC version.

When an MP3 is converted from the CD mastered version of the music it sounds slightly worse than the 'no compromise' 24bit FLAC version.

:? http://turnmeup.org/

Not sure that answered my real question, but this did:

I think it is clear from Linn's posts that the 24 bit files and CD/MP3 files are (in most cases?) different masters. Fair enough for Linn, if this is how the record companies do it, Linn cannot do anything about it.

However, I think it also should be made clear at point of sale that the different files are actually different masters, so people know that any difference in sound quality can come not only from resolution of the file (bit depth + sampling rate) but from the mastering itself. This way people are not confused and may even buy both masters if they want (e.g. the 24 bit and the CD version or whatever choice they make).

I also think if that is not made clear, it is abusing customer trust in quality, as it woudl imply that the 24 bit file is 'definately better' while in fact it means 'definately different and definately at different resolution'.

I seem to have missed in all the posts - does Linn also produce a different master for CD for their own recordings? Or did they say the do not do it?

I think Linn should and can be trusted on their recordings' quality (the ones I have sound excellent) and I hope they can extrapolate this quality approach to selling music from other labels by clearly stating what they are selling. People then make free informed choice and know what they pay for..

Would that be fair?

Say, there was a record made in 1990. It was made in 24 bit. there was no hi-rez downloads at the time, so, naturally, they made a CD master from it, optimising for CD, for the loudness war at the time or whatever they wanted to do to it to release it on the available media and get the best financial return. Come 2000, the MP3 market emerges so they just take the CD version, mp3 it and sell. they either do not even think about the 24 bit or decide just to hold on to it as this is where the intrinsic value is (especially given the spreading piracy). Only natural. Come 2010 there is a new market emerging for hi-res music so some decide to finally sell the original 24-bit master, at a premium. All looks naturla to me. So we end up with different masters ont the market. The only thing missing is clarity on what is what at point of selling.

Another point - teh one in the OP - is to, in the future, try to avoid or minimise the negative impact of modifying the original masters, standardise some aspects of that step which should make music throughout the market/media better. And that is indeed a good thing - Beter quality music coudl be on the way, as per the OP.

Thanks to Craig for starting the thread, thanks to Steve for doing his thing diligently and honestly, thanks to Linn for replying and to all who contributed positively. No thanks to those who posted a lot of 'noise' and personal attacks in the thread. WHF could have supported the cause a bit better, I think.

Exactly how I see it too, and tbh, the Linn bashing in this thread slightly obscures the real message, which is to pressure the recording industrry to be more clear about what they are selling:

Linn's sound quality should be taken in context ie. compared with the quality that is generally available in the market place. If there is any other label who consistently exceeds Linn's sound quality, I would like to hear about it.

As I have said previously, it would be a great achievement to have everybody else in the industry, match the sound quality set by Linn.

IMO. Going after the record company who shows "best practice for the industry", though interesting, is not the right battle.

You make some good points here Cno.

I know that I'm repeating myself again but it is worth remembering that the quality of Linns music is exellent. The sound quality is miles better than almost all of the pop music that you get nowadays and is on a par with some of the high quality classical recordings that I've heard.

Whilst I obviously think that they should offer the studio masters in all formats and make it clearer to their customers exactly which mastered version of the music they're buying I also think that they should be commended for the high quality of music that they offer. It's also worth noting that most of the other record companies don't even offer the studio master version to the public at all and we're forced to listen to the crippled CD master with reduced limited range.

The real question is what are we going after the industry for exactly?

The Turn Me Up campaign simply asking record companies to use CDA to its full inherent capability and stop hamstringing in a misplaced belief that louder = better, or at least stop spoofing the consumer this is the case, which of course might be deliberate in order to create space for an audiophile / High quality version that can be sold for a premium, which of course can only be inferred.

The debate of whether there really is an audible difference between CD and hi res is a different topic, would be easier to follow this thread by separating that out (though it's clearly going to be the same as a cable debate and all of the subjective caveats that come with it). Since it's apparent that the comparison between CDA and Hi Res isn't quite what it seems, and isn't as straightforward as listening to the same album in both formats it's worthy of a completely separate thread IMO.

 

[Alec]

Sorry (I'm not), you completely miss the point. He isn't distributing to anyone but himself, and where do you get thousands of pounds from? He's certainly hardly one of those people "da feds" are out to get!

What a pathetic judgmental post.

That post was in defence of you, you idiot. Thanks for confirming everyone's suspicions.

I’m genially sorry. I’m posting from offshore in west Africa and I’m into the 8th week doing 14 to 16 hour day’s so I’m probably shattered and jumping to the wrong conclusions. Rather than going back reading the threads I just read the one above. Apologies mate.

That's OK, then

 

[shooter]

. . . around 90db's of listenable range, with lesser (normal) speakers around 75 to 80db's, 13bit.

Which is probably equivalent to, or a bit better than the best vinyl, most of which is about 10 to 12 bit equivalency, and can sound extremely good.

Looking at the DRLoudness site it may be fair to say that the current crop of vinyl releases are mastered sympathetically, just do a quick search on any 2012 release. Muse or Lana Del Ray for instance are worse off dynamically with CD and the HD Tracks release compared to vinyl, on the face of it its the medium to be on at the moment, but it costs.

 

[shooter]

Here's a reminder of what the loudness war is all about.

The Red Hot Chili Peppers album 'Californication' is famous for being one of the worst victims of the loudness war. The retail released CD version of this album is so bad that I actually thought the speakers were broken the first time I heard it on a decent hifi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Californication_(album)

it is horrible indeed. every time a track from this album comes up in a playlist I have to reach for the remote to turn the vol down.

Them and Metallica have been through the wringer and if you get a chance to play Guitar Hero check Metallica and then compare it to any release of the same material, quite amasing/amusing.

 

[steve_1979]

Not sure that answered my real question, but this did:

Ooops sorry. I misread your question.

The explanation that AlmaataKZ gave is better that any that I could have offered anyway.

 

[jcbrum]

Hmmmm, This is the information which Linn provide on their website . . .

Linn makes download files available in three quality levels: Studio Master (best), CD Quality (better) and MP3 (good).

You should select the level you require based on the sound quality you desire. Do remember though, the better the sound quality the larger the download file size.

Studio Master FLAC/ALAC

If absolute sound quality is what you want then this file is best for you.

Studio Master files are lossless at various high sample rates, for example, 44.1KHz, 48KHz, 88.2KHz, 96KHz and 192KHz (check each title for actual details). The format will be dependent on the actual recording method we used originally. These files offer true studio quality and are far higher in quality than can be achieved on CD.

. . .

This information is misleading, imo.

JC