Better mastered music could be on the way!

[relocated]

So given Linn's wholly inadequate response, what is the chance of What HiFi taking up this matter on behalf of their customers, in particular, and consumers in general?

No disrespect intended on your intervention JD. An important first step that should be taken on by WHF.

 

[Anonymous]

If I had Ivor's email address, I'd mail him myself

EDIT - I've contacted Gilad instead.

You are writing to the wrong people that’s why you’re not getting an answer Ivor has left Linn and run’s his own engineering company making parts for the aircraft industry, military and also frames for the Klimax range. Gilad runs the Linn factory for all hifi equipment, nothing to do with the Linn music store Gilad sister runs Linn’s records and the music store. Linn’s music store is where you should be writing to. Gilad takes nothing to do with the Linn music store if you want answers write to the right department first of all.

 

[John Duncan]

oooOOOooo.

Well if Mr Tiefenbrum tells me to do that, then that's what I shall do, but I see no harm in contacting him in the first place...

 

[steve_1979]

Linn records generates MP3s of all its titles using a generic MP3 converter similar to that in Dbpoweramp and other similar programs. We use the same converter for all the titles available from Linn Records.

I have another question for Linn. Maybe JD can ask them when he contacts them for us.

Precisely which MP3 encoder does Linn use to convert their FLAC files into MP3s?

Is it Dbpoweramp or something else?

 

[Anonymous]

oooOOOooo.

Well if Mr Tiefenbrum tells me to do that, then that's what I shall do, but I see no harm in contacting him in the first place...

You keep posting you or whoever else it is , is not getting an answer all I’m doing is pointing you in the right direction. The music store is run as a completely different business from the factory producing HIFI equipment. Here was me thinking it was the quality of the downloads from the Linn Music store not something wrong with your DS player.

 

[steve_1979]

This was my post on the other thread. It seems relevant here, too.

The important issue is that Linn are selling 24bit files at a premium price on the implication that they are higher audio quality because they are 24bit.

I, for one, am sure that human hearing cannot distinguish any benefit of 24bit, over 16bit in the replay only domain. Creating recordings digitally is a different matter, which does not apply when simply replaying a file.

I doubt that anyone can audibly distinguish lossless digital compression either, and probably not high-rate MP3 or AAC lossy compression also.

But if someone is supplied with an MP3 file which sounds audibly different to a 24bit example of supposedly the same recording, it does suggest, to me, manipulation for marketing purposes.

JC (dunno why the type-size is different, - I did just cut & paste)

this is exactly my point in this dispute. glad to know I'm not the only one who draws such conclusion.

+1

+2

 

[AL13N]

+3

I'd like to say thanks to steve_1979 for the interesting posts on here, hddaudio and Linn forums.

These findings are of value from a consumer perspective and not merely academic due to the variation in prices.

 

[steve_1979]

I'd like to say thanks to steve_1979 for the interesting posts on here, hddaudio and Linn forums.

I'm glad you've found my posts interesting. Hopefully it's opened a few peoples eyes and maybe also educated a few people about various different aspects of digital audio.

I'd also like to thank everyone else who's contributed and supported the Linn HD threads. :cheers:

 

[John Duncan]

oooOOOooo.

Well if Mr Tiefenbrum tells me to do that, then that's what I shall do, but I see no harm in contacting him in the first place...

You keep posting you or whoever else it is , is not getting an answer all I’m doing is pointing you in the right direction. The music store is run as a completely different business from the factory producing HIFI equipment.

I've no complaiints about Mr Tiefenbrum's lack of response yet, what with it being Sunday. He was probably having his tea, as they say up there.

And as far as I can tell from this thing we call the internet, Ivor's youngest daughter Sara is a film producer in Australia, though I'm happy to be corrected on that...

 

[Anonymous]

So given Linn's wholly inadequate response, what is the chance of What HiFi taking up this matter on behalf of their customers, in particular, and consumers in general?

No disrespect intended on your intervention JD. An important first step that should be taken on by WHF.

Stand corrected. Colin is an employee of Linn who frequents the Linn forum. The answer given is a view from Colin not an official announcement from Linn. You’re so caught up in I want to prove I’m right your going about this in the wrong way as I pointed out in another post. That you have not contacted the Linn music store. The Linn factory is very busy place.

 

[steve_1979]

I've no complaiints about Mr Tiefenbrum's lack of response yet, what with it being Sunday. He was probably having his tea, as they say up there.

I agree. In all fairness to Linn it has been the weekend.

Hopefully Linn will give us some sensible answers to our questions soon.

 

[CnoEvil]

Linn have given some clarification here (Post 32)

http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=20029&page=4

 

[Native_bon]

Linn have given some clarification here (Post 32) http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=20029&page=4

Hum... am none the wiser.. Did that address the problem in hand..? :doh: If others can elaborate on this as well..

 

[CnoEvil]

Linn have given some clarification here (Post 32) http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=20029&page=4

Hum... am none the wiser.. Did that address the problem in hand..? :doh: If others can elaborate on this as well..

I'm no expert, but I think this means the MP3 needs compared with the Red Book version. 24 bit seems to play by different rules.

 

[Native_bon]

I have to add here.. When playing 24bit or mp3 flies you may not hear alot of difference. The most impact of 24bit files is in the recording studio were the producer has the ability of more head room & dynamics. If i use a 32bit float engine from a music production software with 24bit files i will get a far superior sound compared to 16bit file. Having a superior sound quality counts at the very early stage of production. Also, the type of file size used, or the float engine settings when recording live instruments into the software also matters alot.

If the best float engine setting & bigger size files are not used at the early stage not much can be done after that.

Now the reason so many studios use small size files(16bit) is the limiting processing power from some computers. The bigger the files (24bit) more likely the computer will run out of processing power.. Hence so many producers use 24bit float engines & 16bit files.

I dn,t know what recording process linn uses when recording thier own music in the studio. If linn's own music is well recorded then I think its save to say buy only linn's recorded music.!! Having said that if linn does not convert music with the highest quality then that may bring into question about the level of quality in the studio productiom material....

Am sure linn will have an explanation to this.

The reply on that link is almost identical to what i worte a few days ago. Does it address the problem of how the flac file is converted to mp3?

 

[Native_bon]

I usually use 24bit dither mix dwn when making a final mix dwn, Even then you loose quality. I think to get the very best of the best is to record the sound live from the mixer output to a recorder. Then you would really start to hear what the producer hears in the studio. Real dynamic range & headroom!! The music industry will not take this part way cause it could be expensive & a very long process.

At last what I have know for a long time is now open to most. Interesting thread. :clap:

Also here!!

 

[CnoEvil]

.The reply on that link is almost identical to what i worte a few days ago. Does it address the problem of how the flac file is converted to mp3?

It explains a certain amount, but imo. leaves a certain amount unanswered.....Steve's questions were very specific.

IMO. The issues surrounding this whole can of worms are complicated and confusing.......and navagating through what is crucially important (ie. sound quality) and what are purely academic measurements, is far from easy (for me anyway).

 

[Craig M.]

This is a copy and paste from the Linn forum, following the link that Cno posted.

Hi Guys,

Just to clarify, the MP3 version is encoded from the CD master, where as the Studio Master stands alone.

Quite often the Studio Master and the CD versions are the product of separate mastering sessions.

Typically the CD master is made in line with the requirements of the Red Book and generally trys to make the most of what the format allows. It's also made in the knowledge that it will be the master that will be distributed to all download services through an aggregator; transcoded to a myriad of lossy formats.

Without these constraints for the Studio Master, the engineer is free to give it his best, and is afforded the dynamic range to give the best representation of the album possible — losing the shackles of the CD master.

This is indeed the case with Trashcan's album, a record I know intimately by the way, having been part of the management and label team that produced it. We discussed the master with the band and with Calum Malcolm — the mastering engineer — and tried our best to achieve what we felt was the perfect master of 'In The Music' with no concerns or constraints. One of the beauties of Studio Master.

Hope that clarifies things,

Jim

Interesting, while this is a better answer than the drivel Colin from Linn posted, it still leaves me with some questions. I wonder why Linn feel the need to master the CD and Studio Master (is that what they call the 24bit version?) differently? Why not just downsample the Studio Master version? The sentence "Without these constraints for the Studio Master, the engineer is free to give it his best, and is afforded the dynamic range to give the best representation of the album possible — losing the shackles of the CD master." doesn't make much sense to me, the dynamic range of any piece of music ever recorded doesn't approach the limits of CD as a format. It still smells, to me, of trying to artificially provide a reason to purchase the 'Studio Master'.

 

[BenLaw]

Agreed. And more specifically it provides no justification at all for charging a premium for the studio master. If anything the 16/44 and below should cost more due to the extra work involved!

 

[steve_1979]

This is my reply to Jim on the Linn forum:

Hi Jim and thanks for your reply.

I'm a bit confused by what you've said though. You say that the 24 bit FLAC studio master version is the best possible version. But what I don't understand is why you don't you just convert the 24 bit FLAC studio master straight into an MP3 without making any changes.

Surely an MP3 which is a direct conversion of the original FLAC file will have better sound quality than an MP3 that has been remastered to have less dynamic range?

 

[CnoEvil]

And more specifically it provides no justification at all for charging a premium for the studio master.

Given what's involved in a download, I agree......but Linn is not alone in charging elevated prices for a premium branded product, that is relatvely scarce.

It will not be until / if 24 bit becomes much more common, and with decent competition, that prices will come down to a sensible level. Everything that's "new-fangled" is usually milked as long as possible.

I have thirty-one 24 bit recordings which I got free as a promotion when I bought the DS, and without exception, they are the best sounding albums in my collection.......wthout wishing to take sides, the fact that Linn's recordings are exceedingly good, and their 320 kbps is as good as is out there (a quick listen to Linn Radio can confirm this)....should not be lost sight of in all this.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Linn have given some clarification here (Post 32) http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=20029&page=4

thanks CNO for flagging the reply to us.

I must say what Linn is saying is one big load of BS! two quotes are of particular interest (original spelling):

"Typically the CD master is made in line with the requirements of the Red Book and generally trys to make the most of what the format allows."

and

"Without these constraints for the Studio Master, the engineer is free to give it his best, and is afforded the dynamic range to give the best representation of the album possible — losing the shackles of the CD master."

have you seen what DR those "masters" really have? if you take a look at the previous page in that thread on Linn forum you'll see Steve's measurements of DR of two downloaded songs. 7dB DR (loudness to peak) and some 11dB DR (in both cases Linn's mp3 versions were less dynamic by at least 3dB). This is just plain joke!!! I'm wondering what Red Book standard Linn is talking about since in their opinion CD struggles to contain 11dB DR :rofl:

ain't nuttin' but a marketing scum. 24 bit has to sound different/ better than CD. it's their raison d'etre in the end, isn't it?

the more I find out about 24bit music format the more I get convinced I'm not loosing anything listening to CDs. I just wish mastering standards were better.

why don't we sign a petition to European Parliament asking them to push a bill enforcing maintaining at lest 18dB loudness to peak ratio on every recording sold within EU? that would be fun... not only will you get beautiful recordings this way but as a side effect you'll get equal loudness on every, but the most dynamic, song! isn't that cool?

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

This is a copy and paste from the Linn forum, following the link that Cno posted.

Hi Guys,

Just to clarify, the MP3 version is encoded from the CD master, where as the Studio Master stands alone.

Quite often the Studio Master and the CD versions are the product of separate mastering sessions.

Typically the CD master is made in line with the requirements of the Red Book and generally trys to make the most of what the format allows. It's also made in the knowledge that it will be the master that will be distributed to all download services through an aggregator; transcoded to a myriad of lossy formats.

Without these constraints for the Studio Master, the engineer is free to give it his best, and is afforded the dynamic range to give the best representation of the album possible — losing the shackles of the CD master.

This is indeed the case with Trashcan's album, a record I know intimately by the way, having been part of the management and label team that produced it. We discussed the master with the band and with Calum Malcolm — the mastering engineer — and tried our best to achieve what we felt was the perfect master of 'In The Music' with no concerns or constraints. One of the beauties of Studio Master.

Hope that clarifies things,

Jim

Interesting, while this is a better answer than the drivel Colin from Linn posted, it still leaves me with some questions. I wonder why Linn feel the need to master the CD and Studio Master (is that what they call the 24bit version?) differently? Why not just downsample the Studio Master version? The sentence "Without these constraints for the Studio Master, the engineer is free to give it his best, and is afforded the dynamic range to give the best representation of the album possible — losing the shackles of the CD master." doesn't make much sense to me, the dynamic range of any piece of music ever recorded doesn't approach the limits of CD as a format. It still smells, to me, of trying to artificially provide a reason to purchase the 'Studio Master'.

+1

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Agreed. And more specifically it provides no justification at all for charging a premium for the studio master. If anything the 16/44 and below should cost more due to the extra work involved!

+1

exactly my words :cheers:

 

[John Duncan]

Please don't ignore the increased cost of storing and bandwidth which the host pays for, which are linear - ie it costs ten times as much to store and ten times as much to serve to you a high res file that is ten times bigger than an mp3.

That said, Amazon storage is about 10c per gig per month, but please don't presume the hosting costs of Hi res and compressed are the same.