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J

jcbrum

Guest
CnoEvil said:
If the quality hasn't suffered (and TBF Steve has emphasized this), and Linn's 320 kbps is up with the best of them, everything else is surely academic.

This was my post on the other thread. It seems relevant here, too.

The important issue is that Linn are selling 24bit files at a premium price on the implication that they are higher audio quality because they are 24bit.

I, for one, am sure that human hearing cannot distinguish any benefit of 24bit, over 16bit in the replay only domain. Creating recordings digitally is a different matter, which does not apply when simply replaying a file.

I doubt that anyone can audibly distinguish lossless digital compression either, and probably not high-rate MP3 or AAC lossy compression also.

But if someone is supplied with an MP3 file which sounds audibly different to a 24bit example of supposedly the same recording, it does suggest, to me, manipulation for marketing purposes.

JC (dunno why the type-size is different, - I did just cut & paste)
 
J

jcbrum

Guest
In other words, I'm saying I can't see any reason why ALAC files should sound any different to 24bit WAV or AIFF, when replayed, and certainly not in terms of dynamic range or level.

JC

p.s. the type size thing appears to be a forum artifact when editing, it didn't appear in the final post.
 

oldric_naubhoff

New member
Mar 11, 2011
23
0
0
jcbrum said:
This was my post on the other thread. It seems relevant here, too.

The important issue is that Linn are selling 24bit files at a premium price on the implication that they are higher audio quality because they are 24bit.

I, for one, am sure that human hearing cannot distinguish any benefit of 24bit, over 16bit in the replay only domain. Creating recordings digitally is a different matter, which does not apply when simply replaying a file.

I doubt that anyone can audibly distinguish lossless digital compression either, and probably not high-rate MP3 or AAC lossy compression also.

But if someone is supplied with an MP3 file which sounds audibly different to a 24bit example of supposedly the same recording, it does suggest, to me, manipulation for marketing purposes.

JC (dunno why the type-size is different, - I did just cut & paste)

this is exactly my point in this dispute. glad to know I'm not the only one who draws such conclusion.
 

oldric_naubhoff

New member
Mar 11, 2011
23
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0
y'know I replied to the reply from Linn. I drew their attention to the findings of steve's experiment and I actually suggested them changing their mp3 decoder to something more up-to-date :twisted: I don't think they would follow my advice though... :grin:
 

BenLaw

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2010
475
7
18,895
oldric_naubhoff said:
y'know I replied to the reply from Linn. I drew their attention to the findings of steve's experiment and I actually suggested them changing their mp3 decoder to something more up-to-date :twisted: I don't think they would follow my advice though... :grin:

Let us know if you get a reply to that!

I think we can all agree that their explanation is not correct, in that no mp3 encoder would change even one file in the way that Steve has found, let alone several different files in several different ways. So the explanations that I can think of are these:

1. Linn have manipulated the files, presumably hoping no-one would notice, and then lied about it when Steve noticed.

2. Contrary to their explanation, someone else supplies them with the different files and they were unaware of this until Steve / Oldric told them. When they were told, they gave a false and implausible explanation.

3. Someone at Linn has manipulated the files but the person who replied to the email was unaware of this. The person who replied failed to check the truth and decided to give a false and implausible explanation.

Any other explanations? None is very impressive for a company expecting people to pay a premium on the basis of quality.

Cnoevil, I don't understand your defence. Do you now accept that mp3s sound the same as 24 bit? I thought your stance was that hi res sounded better. If that is the case, it seems to be because someone is manipulating them, and either Linn are doing it themselves and lying or allowing others to do it and behaving in a laissez faire and later disingenuous way.
 

AlmaataKZ

New member
Jan 7, 2009
295
1
0
oldric_naubhoff said:
jcbrum said:
This was my post on the other thread. It seems relevant here, too.

The important issue is that Linn are selling 24bit files at a premium price on the implication that they are higher audio quality because they are 24bit.

I, for one, am sure that human hearing cannot distinguish any benefit of 24bit, over 16bit in the replay only domain. Creating recordings digitally is a different matter, which does not apply when simply replaying a file.

I doubt that anyone can audibly distinguish lossless digital compression either, and probably not high-rate MP3 or AAC lossy compression also.

But if someone is supplied with an MP3 file which sounds audibly different to a 24bit example of supposedly the same recording, it does suggest, to me, manipulation for marketing purposes.

JC (dunno why the type-size is different, - I did just cut & paste)

this is exactly my point in this dispute. glad to know I'm not the only one who draws such conclusion.

+1
 
T

the record spot

Guest
Alec said:
Dowhat said:
char_lotte said:
I'm looking to buy a used parachute , I'm told this is the place to find one?

Why don't you stop the smart comments? You dozey old hound!!!

I find her rather amusing. I don't find people calling women dogs very amusing though.

Ditto that, well said Alec.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Alec said:
Dowhat said:
char_lotte said:
I'm looking to buy a used parachute , I'm told this is the place to find one?

[EDITED BY MODS]

I find her rather amusing. I don't find people calling women dogs very amusing though.
Her, him whatever, the person behind the username constantly chips in with smart remarks, designed IMO to steer threads in a certain direction. But some very clever regulars on here are waking up now, and questions that were once buried in the noise are not as easily avoided.
 
T

the record spot

Guest
Dowhat said:
Alec said:
Dowhat said:
char_lotte said:
I'm looking to buy a used parachute , I'm told this is the place to find one?

[EDITED BY MODS]

I find her rather amusing. I don't find people calling women dogs very amusing though.
Her, him whatever, the person behind the username constantly chips in with smart remarks, designed IMO to steer threads in a certain direction. But some very clever regulars on here are waking up now, and questions that were once buried in the noise are not as easily avoided.

Three posts in, bit of a lurker are we? Your post deserved all it's getting; shows you up more than anything else methinks.
 

John Duncan

Well-known member
Jan 8, 2008
2,034
30
19,720
Craig M. said:
John Duncan said:
Actually, it did make sense, if you believe that mp3 encoders can produce different results. If you don't, or don't think that they can produce results as different as you see, that must bring us back to BenLaw's question to you:

BenLaw said:
So Linn are either ignorant or dishonest, yes?

Strange line of questioning JD, what do you deduce from Steves findings? I can think of a third option, maybe Linn don't care as much about the quality of the mp3. They could always ask Steve which mp3 encoder he is using that seems to be consistently better than theirs.

It wasn't meant to be a strange line of questioning, I'm just trying to get him to come to an actual conclusion after 18 pages of stroking his chin and going 'hmm'.
 

Native_bon

Well-known member
Nov 26, 2008
182
5
18,595
I have to add here.. When playing 24bit or mp3 flies you may not hear alot of difference. The most impact of 24bit files is in the recording studio were the producer has the ability of more head room & dynamics. If i use a 32bit float engine from a music production software with 24bit files i will get a far superior sound compared to 16bit file. Having a superior sound quality counts at the very early stage of production. Also, the type of file size used, or the float engine settings when recording live instruments into the software also matters alot.

If the best float engine setting & bigger size files are not used at the early stage not much can be done after that.

Now the reason so many studios use small size files(16bit) is the limiting processing power from some computers. The bigger the files (24bit) more likely the computer will run out of processing power.. Hence so many producers use 24bit float engines & 16bit files.

I dn,t know what recording process linn uses when recording thier own music in the studio. If linn's own music is well recorded then I think its save to say buy only linn's recorded music.!! Having said that if linn does not convert music with the highest quality then that may bring into question about the level of quality in the studio productiom material....

Am sure linn will have an explanation to this.
 

Phileas

New member
May 5, 2012
0
0
0
Craig M. said:
I can think of a third option, maybe Linn don't care as much about the quality of the mp3.

But they go to the trouble of using different encoders for different music.

Maybe the person doing the conversion thinks he needs to muck about with files and isn't aware that simple, bog-standard converters will do the job perfectly. Perhaps he thinks his conversions are better than the originals?

[edit]Rereading the Linn reply, I see my suggestion doesn't fit. Colin is claiming they do use a bog-standard convertor.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Below is a copy and paste from iTrax that you might find an intresting read

Recently, I was alerted to an article published in HiFi News & Record Review, a British audiophile publication that claims to be "the longest serving and most prestigious hi-fi and music magazine in the world". It was written by Keith Howard, an acquaintance of mine from some years back, and entitled, "HD download debacle". The subtext reads, "High sample-rate music downloads are not all they seem". I couldn't agree more and was quite pleased that the publisher of a major magazine on audio has the wherewithal to take the high ground on this issue. My compliments to editor Paul Miller and HFN. Everything that Keith discovered during his investigation maps perfectly with my own research and reporting. The world of HD digital music retailing is not everything that we would like to expect.

I'd like to share a few of the items that Keith included in his report. I think readers will find this very illuminating. Here's his opening paragraph: "When audiophiles buy a hi-res music download, most do so on trust. If they've paid a premium for a 24-bit/88.2, 24/96, 24/176.4 of 24/192 download, they reasonably expect that the enhanced bandwidth offered by the higher sampling rate will be fully exploited, inasmuch as the source material allows. But our investigations show that this trust is sometimes misplaced, and those price premiums are being asked for audio files in which the signal bandwidth has been curtailed."

First, he points out that this is not a new situation. At the introduction of high-resolution or high definition audio formats back in 2000, Paul Miller published an article exposing many of the early DVD-Audio productions as lacking substantial improvements over CDs. The SACD and DVD-Audio formats were specially designed to, "demonstrate the audible superiority of 96 kHz/192 kHz recordings over CD's 44.1/16-bit format [but, in fact] actually sounded worse." My contention has always been that a standard definition recording from the past placed in a container that exceeds its fidelity standards remains a standard definition recording. We might be getting the best possible rendition of that older track but it is not the same thing as having a new recording done with live musicians at 96 kHz/24-bits. And it shouldn't be marketed as such.

Keith's first example of "ham-fisted" upsampling came from High Definition Tape Transfers, which to me is an oxymoron of the most blatant type. Every analog tape recording is standard definition (limited dynamic range and frequency response) thus transferring it to an HD bucket is pointless…unless the company juices the frequency response somehow. There are a couple of very informative graphs showing the "butterfly" effect of this sort of audio foolery. HDTT remade the files and sent them to all of their customers that had purchased the version on steroids.

The next part of the discussion in the article focuses on HDtracks.com, the company headed by David and Norman Chesky. Keith writes, "has never, to my knowledge, released anything so crass (as the HDTT folks) but is has sold, and at the time of writing continues to sell, files which do not have as wide a bandwidth as you might reasonably expect from their sampling rate."

He continues by pointing out, "as an example that's been on sale for a long time is the 24/96 download Peter Frampton's Frampton Comes Alive, the spectrum of which clearly shows the presence of steep low-pass filter just above 20 kHz." The track, he concludes, "this track has been upsampled." To be fair, Mike Lawson of HDtracks did re-label the Frampton title as 48/24 and it is as good as you will ever get from an analog sourced original. My argument is that it should be labeled accurately from the outset. Anything that goes back to the days of analog tape shouldn't be "upsampled" and sold for a premium price.

In a subsequent paragraph, Keith goes on, "HDtracks removed John Coltrane's Lush Life when this was exposed as being filtered. The spectrum of "Like Someone in Love" appears to have been low-pass filtered twice, probably indicating that it was upsampled from 44.1 kHz to 96 kHz. In contrast, the Frampton download remains available at the time of writing this and, moreover is not an isolated case - in fact it has some notable company among HDtracks' classical titles." He downloaded a couple of classical tracks that are available on the HDtracks site and found that they too, were subjected to "steep low-pass filtering just above 20 kHz."

And it gets worse when you think that customers can spend an additional $10 for the 176.4 kHz versions. Keith's conclusion, "the $10 premium for the 176.4 version buys you, effectively, nothing."

The article also targets Linn's high resolution downloads as suffering from the same manipulations. Linn promises to pay closer attention to the quality of their source, the rigor of their procedures and to do a spectral analysis of all new content. Why wasn't this done previously?

The end of the article doesn't instill a lot of confidence in the press and websites that report on our industry, "Unfortunately the hi-fi press - which ought to be taking a leading role - has mostly sat on its hands: hi-res recordings are routinely reviewed without any attempt to confirm their provenance. Web sites that review hi-res recordings are arguably even worse since their coverage typically outstrips that of the hi-fi magazine but their reviews again include no objective assessment of the signal bandwidth supplied. Online audio forums fill the gap to some extent, but aren't to be relied on, in this matter or any other. For instance, in an Audio Circle forum discussing HDtracks' Rolling Stones downloads, ted_b, described as a Facilitator, wrote, 'Spectrum analysis shows lots of energy way above 30 k for these Stones 176.4 k rips, and not just noise-shaping' - which clearly flies in the face of our own results".

I believe that it's time for digital music retailers, high definition record companies and the press (both printed and online) to adopt an open and honest approach to high definition music recordings. The more information that consumers have the better it will be for everyone…the high-end segment of the business will improve and music lovers will know what is possible with real high definition tracks.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
if you want to hear more? look into the recording? get better speakers....
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Again might be of interest copy & paste from iTrax FLAC vs. PCM: Which format is best? by Mark Waldrep I received the following two emails on the same day this past week. The first read: "Kudos to iTrax for offering 96/24 wav files (not FLAC). Absolute Sound recently noted that FLAC files are degradations of the music (cause not completely understood). " And the second: "I don’t see the option to download FLAC instead of WAV. How do I do it? It will save me 50% on download costs, with no loss of quality." These comments are not new…I've received similar emails previously. But it seems it's time to address the issue of FLAC vs. PCM [as .WAV] files. As most of you know, PCM or Pulse Code Modulation is the standard method of representing the output of an analog to digital audio converter. The 24-bit linear words are encoded so that the duty cycle of a pulse wave is changed according to whether there is a digital "1" or "0" present for each of the bit positions in each of the digital samples [up to 192,000]. This is raw data and represents the audio associated with the output of the converter. It does have a small header portion that contains the sample rate, the word size and some metadata about the file, for example the size of the data chunk]. It is not compressed or altered in any way other than to have some error detection and error handling redundancies built in to the structure. What it doesn't have is any metadata that can be peeled out and used by a music server or other piece of software that would benefit from a built in source of musical/performer information. FLAC [Free Lossless Audio Codec] files, on the other hand, are compressed digital audio files that "losslessly" preserve the integrity of the raw audio data from input to output AND provide a significant area for metadata information that can be used as "tags" for music servers and other devices. So it seems obvious that FLAC with its smaller footprint and bandwidth requirement and the additional information they contain should be the go to format for audiophile seeking high definition downloads. In fact, most of the digital music retailers that provide "high quality" downloads use the FLAC standard. Are they shortchanging customers that want access to the digital master files before any process or compression? According to the latest edition of The Absolute Sound magazine, there is an audible difference between the source .WAV files and the same files after they have been "losslessly" compressed by virtually all of the tools. In the third part of the feature article "Computer Music Audio Quality, Part 3" written by Charles Zelig, PhD and Jay Clawson and subtitled, "Is FLAC a Fraud?" they claim FLAC suffers some loss. If they're correct then the "lossless" claim about FLAC must not be true. Besides my objection to the whole notion that what trade in is "Computer Music", I'm rather dubious about their claims. After all, these are the same authors that place "master tape quality" as the highest of their fidelity standards, which is clearly a misstatement. I suspect that their methodology is flawed or that the source materials that they are examining, encoding and listening to are bad. I know that it is possible to compress digital audio by 20-40% and retain every bit of the source information following the decoding. Meridian Lossless Packing, now Dolby TrueHD does this perfectly. As for this site, I plan to augment our offering to include FLAC files for those that are looking to speed up their downloads and want the additional metadata. We've been preparing the FLAC files right along side the PCM files every since we started the site. In fact, many individuals ask for the FLAC files and we make them available through side channels or individual FTP sites. If I had to choose one format or the other, I would opt for the PCM/.WAV files. These are the master files. They can be downloaded relatively efficiently using modern networks and offer customers the very best of the best. I'm not sure but I believe iTrax.com is unique in offering 96/24 bits PCM audio in .WAV format for all of our files.
 

andyjm

New member
Jul 20, 2012
15
3
0
Mirren Boy said:
Absolute Sound recently noted that FLAC files are degradations of the music (cause not completely understood).

Not this again. How many times do you have to show that a WAV can be coded into FLAC and then back to WAV and be bit perfect with the original WAV file to convince people.

It may be that Absolute Sound had a flaky DAC, poor FLAC decoder, or didn't run their tests in a way to avoid subjective bias. Whatever it was, it wasn't due to the file format itself.
 

steve_1979

Well-known member
Jul 14, 2010
231
10
18,795
steve_1979 said:
CnoEvil said:
If you hadn't analysed them, and the volumes of Linn's one and your one were made identical....can you hear the difference.

Not trying to be difficult....but trying to understand.

I haven't actually tried but I doubt that I'd be able to tell them apart if they were volume matched.

Even as they are it's very difficult to hear any difference between them.

I've just tried to ABXing the MP3 and FLAC versons of the track 'House On The Hill'.

With the peak volume levels matced between the MP3 and FLAC versions it's very easy to tell the between the MP3 and FLAC versions every time in an ABX test.

With the apparent volume levels matced between the MP3 and FLAC versions it was much more difficult to tell them apart but I was still just about able to reliably pick out the MP3 version every time in an ABX test.
 

andyjm

New member
Jul 20, 2012
15
3
0
Mirren Boy said:
As most of you know, PCM or Pulse Code Modulation is the standard method of representing the output of an analog to digital audio converter. The 24-bit linear words are encoded so that the duty cycle of a pulse wave is changed according to whether there is a digital "1" or "0" present for each of the bit positions in each of the digital samples [up to 192,000].

Err, no. This is confusing PCM with S/PDIF. PCM is a technique for representing an analogue waveform as a series of separate samples, S/PDIF is a method of encoding clock and audio data signals down a serial link.
 

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