B&W 805S - Where is the bass?

[chjdean]

Hey guys,

Recently bought a used pair of b&w 805S. They sound incredible... except for the low-end.

Now I am not expecting subwoofer-like performance from these bookshelves, but the bass is literally non-existent. It is like someone re-recorded each song and just took out the low end. It seems to take the life out of the song.

To compare, an old pair of B&W 686's have a better sounding low-end than the 805S's. It is truly shocking.

I have paired the speakers with a Marantz PM-8004.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

 

[bluedroog]

First off make sure you've got no loose connections and also they are not connected out of phase, this is a common mistake.

second, you may just be mistaking the flabby bass of lesser speakers as deeper, the 805s will no doubt be tighter which you may need to acclimatise to, cheaper speakers' bass is often more obvious through its flaws.

 

[chjdean]

I'll certainly check the terminal connections when I get home.

What troubles me is that I used to have CM5s that I sold for the 805S. It pains me to say that I enjoyed their fuller sound a lot more. 805 lower end kind of sounds like an old radio speaker...It's kind of pathetic at the moment.

Do the speakers need more power? I have read that 805s only truly show their bass with more power.

Thanks for the comment.

 

[CnoEvil]

I am not familiar with your amp or speakers, but in general, some of the factors that effect bass are:

- The size of the room (small speakers in a big room get "lost".)

- The ability of the amp to properly drive the speakers.

- Sturdy stands which have been filled/part filled are usually essential.

- Connection - make sure speakers are wired in phase.

- The positioning of the speakers (ie. how much bass reinforcement they need from proximity to walls)

- Construction of the floor - suspended wooden floors are a disaster, from which the speakers need isolated.

- How the speakers are attached to the top of the stands....Blu-tac is sufficient.

- The stability of the stands ie. how well they are connected to the floor (to prevent lateral movement).

- How the room is furnished....too many plush "sound absorbing" furnishings "can" dampen the sound too much (though this is less likely)

- IME. Though controversial, I have found speaker cables can have an effect...multi-strand copper (eg Linn K20) is usually sufficient.

 

[bluedroog]

I'd put a quid on them being out of phase, I think you'll come back her saying "doh, love them now".

What amp are you using though?

 

[chjdean]

Marantz PM-8005 Integrated Amp, Sorry I wrote 8004 in the initial post.

Its actually the 8005

 

[CnoEvil]

What amp are you using though?

Marantz PM 8004.

Oops, I gave the model listed in the first post.

 

[bluedroog]

Whoops, I missed it anyway! Not one I'm familiar with but looks reasonably powerful, should be up to the job.

 

[CnoEvil]

Not one I'm familiar with but looks reasonably powerful, should be up to the job.

I'm not so sure....I would be looking at gutsy amps in the £2k - 2.5k range.

 

[matt49]

Not one I'm familiar with but looks reasonably powerful, should be up to the job.

I'm not so sure....I would be looking at gutsy amps in the £2k - 2.5k range.

And if you could stretch to a Devialet 120, you'd have bass in spades. I've heard the 805s with the Dev 120. The 805s benefit from Devialet's SAM technology, which hugely improves the depth and precision of bass response. Switching SAM on and off with the 805s was really quite an eye opener.

Matt

 

[bluedroog]

Don't get me wrong, it's not ideal and it won't do speakers of that calibre justic but it wouldn't account for a sound as bad as decscribed, it won't be clipping or anything.

 

[davedotco]

I think there is a fair chance that the OP is missing the excessive warmth of the cheaper speaker and a more accurate bass of the 805s is something of a shock.

As a dealer I used to see this all the time, people upgrading their speakers (and sometime amp), then complaining about lack of "bass". Of course it isn't bass that is lacking, it's the overhang and boom of the cheaper speakers that is gone, some people find that hard to come to terms with.

Edit; The amplifier is probably not up to the job either.

 

[chjdean]

Went back and checked all the wiring. Everything was fine.

You may be right... I do like my music with a warm bass-line, but I was definitely not expecting how little the 805s would have. Luckily, I will be adding a subwoofer.

Eventually I'll probably upgrade the amp too, when money magically lands in my lap.

Thanks all

 

[rainsoothe]

the bass might be hiding in a Supernait 2, who knows?

 

[plastic penguin]

Went back and checked all the wiring. Everything was fine.

You may be right... I do like my music with a warm bass-line, but I was definitely not expecting how little the 805s would have. Luckily, I will be adding a subwoofer.

Eventually I'll probably upgrade the amp too, when money magically lands in my lap.

Thanks all

How long have you had the 805S? Given you had CM5s previously, which are known to have deep bass (had a dem of CM1s a few years ago and they really pumped the bass out, so I would imagine the 5s have a welter of low-end stuff). Before spending money on amps etc etc, just use the 805s for a another couple of weeks, and if you don't like the bass then...

The one and only time I heard the 805S was two years ago whilst testing a Rega Dac (with my old Arcam CD73 as transport) at the dealers. They were powered by a Naim XS amp and sounded terrific. Wouldn't expect the Marantz to be severely lacking in quality, but this is just an educated guess based on no experience of your model but have heard the older 8003, albeit with different speakers.

 

[ID.]

Interesting. I heard them on powered by the previous version of the Aura Note (50w) per channel and the bass was lovely. They liked better amplification but still sounded good on that all in one. Bass wasn't particularly dry either.

Not heard the 8005. Last I heard was the 8003 which was rather unimpressive for the price but didn't lack bass.

 

[Vladimir]

Where is the mid-bass hump?

 

[davedotco]

Where is the mid-bass hump?

Exactly.....!

Many (most?) budget and mid-fi speakers have far to much bass, but given the price and size restrictions this is manifested as a mid bass hump (100-150hz) rather than genuine bass extension. This is now so common that it has become the norm and one of the reasons I find so many modern systems largely unlistenable. Add in the fact that they are rarely given the necessary room to breath in the home and the problem is compounded.

Another consequence of the 'if it sounds good it is good' school of system building, pure nonsense in my view.

 

[chebby]

Where is the mid-bass hump?

Here ...

Spendor SA1 curve (more pronounced 'hump') for comparison ...

 

[Covenanter]

I'm not sure what music you are listening to but the PM8005 is fine in the bass department in my system.

Chris

 

[gowiththeflow]

.....Now I am not expecting subwoofer-like performance from these bookshelves, but the bass is literally non-existent.

It is like someone re-recorded each song and just took out the low end. It seems to take the life out of the song.

....... It is truly shocking......

From reading the OP, this issue seems to be much more than can be attributed to better quality but lighter bass, or a lack of familiarity and lack of boom and bloom.

Out of phase? Worth examining.

Or worst, the speakers are faulty in some way. Why did the previous owner want to sell them?

.

 

[davedotco]

.....Now I am not expecting subwoofer-like performance from these bookshelves, but the bass is literally non-existent.

It is like someone re-recorded each song and just took out the low end. It seems to take the life out of the song.

....... It is truly shocking......

From reading the OP, this issue seems to be much more than can be attributed to better quality but lighter bass, or a lack of familiarity and lack of boom and bloom.

Out of phase? Worth examining.

Or worst, the speakers are faulty in some way. Why did the previous owner want to sell them?

Impossible to be sure without actually getting hands on, but I would be surprised if this was the case.

The OP has checked and insists that the connections are correct and, in general, if there is a problem with the speakers it will be obvious. A fault that causes the speakers to lose bass simultaneously occuring on both speakers is virtually inconcievable.

A phase issue really is the only thing that could cause this, maybe a wiring fault? Double check by getting a 1.5 volt battery AA size or similar and apply it to the speaker terminals of each speaker in turn. For the same connections the bass driver should move in the same direction each time.

 

[CnoEvil]

Near the start of this thread, I gave a list of things that effect bass performance.....some dramatically so.

As yet, we don't know which stands are being used, whether they are filled, what size the room is, whether they are on a suspended wooden floor and how close to the walls the speakers are placed.

 

[CnoEvil]

perhaps you have to wait for a 200 hours for breakin' ;

This model dates back to about 2005 and he bought them 2nd hand.

 

[gowiththeflow]

Here you can see the response grafics ,

and they have a good bass extension;

perhaps you have to wait for a 200 hours for breakin' ; .........

Those graphs are for the current Diamond model and not the older S model under discussion.

"Breaking in" shouldn't really be an issue with these older used speakers, unless the previous owner rarely used them.

Edit: Beaten to it by CNOevil

.