B&W 805S - Where is the bass?

[Craig M.]

At what frequency can you no longer tell which speaker the sound is coming from?

I'm sure vlad will remember to do this under 'blind' conditions to stop the knowledge of which one it's coming from skewing the result.

 

[stevebrock]

The CM series is the most coloured, non-neutral, music lover oriented series B&W has ever made. They were made more to be furniture with appeal to non-refined ears, with embedded loudness curve feel. The FR specs are dreadfully, with huge mid-bass humps and upper midrange dips. Moving from that to a fairly neutral 800 series with front ported reflex, the sound may feel really light, to some to an extent sounding like cheap plastic PC speakers.

Move the speakers closer to the back wall to get closer to the original sound you were used to from the CM5s.

BTW I own the CM1s and chose them intentionally over the CM5 because they had less bass, but they still have too much of a hump. I flaten it out in JRiver parametric EQ and get a sound that is less appealing at first listen but more accurate. More midrange details appears as the small woofer is assigned less bass to strugle with and it becomes machinegun super fast.

You get really fast bass from a Kandy and a pair of CMs......*shok*

That is a seriously good trick, that JRiver must be some player.

Classic that one Dave

 

[Vladimir]

Vladimir, try running some test tones through your system. Left channel only, right channel only, both channels together. At 100hz, 80 hz, 60 hz, 50 hz, 40 hz, 30 hz.

At what frequency can you no longer tell which speaker the sound is coming from?

Which frequencies, if any, sound identical? Do 50 and 60 hz sound different in your room with your system with your ears? Or do they sound the same?

Or simply try to tell where a well implemented subwoofer is located in the room while blindfolded.

 

[Vladimir]

The CM series is the most coloured, non-neutral, music lover oriented series B&W has ever made. They were made more to be furniture with appeal to non-refined ears, with embedded loudness curve feel. The FR specs are dreadfully, with huge mid-bass humps and upper midrange dips. Moving from that to a fairly neutral 800 series with front ported reflex, the sound may feel really light, to some to an extent sounding like cheap plastic PC speakers.

Move the speakers closer to the back wall to get closer to the original sound you were used to from the CM5s.

BTW I own the CM1s and chose them intentionally over the CM5 because they had less bass, but they still have too much of a hump. I flaten it out in JRiver parametric EQ and get a sound that is less appealing at first listen but more accurate. More midrange details appears as the small woofer is assigned less bass to strugle with and it becomes machinegun super fast.

You get really fast bass from a Kandy and a pair of CMs......*shok*

That is a seriously good trick, that JRiver must be some player.

Classic that one Dave

Maybe if I take the innards from the Kandy and cram them inside the speakers, maybe then Dave would be impressed with my system.

 

[stevebrock]

The CM series is the most coloured, non-neutral, music lover oriented series B&W has ever made. They were made more to be furniture with appeal to non-refined ears, with embedded loudness curve feel. The FR specs are dreadfully, with huge mid-bass humps and upper midrange dips. Moving from that to a fairly neutral 800 series with front ported reflex, the sound may feel really light, to some to an extent sounding like cheap plastic PC speakers.

Move the speakers closer to the back wall to get closer to the original sound you were used to from the CM5s.

BTW I own the CM1s and chose them intentionally over the CM5 because they had less bass, but they still have too much of a hump. I flaten it out in JRiver parametric EQ and get a sound that is less appealing at first listen but more accurate. More midrange details appears as the small woofer is assigned less bass to strugle with and it becomes machinegun super fast.

You get really fast bass from a Kandy and a pair of CMs......*shok*

That is a seriously good trick, that JRiver must be some player.

Classic that one Dave

Maybe if I take the innards from the Kandy and cram them inside the speakers, maybe then Dave would be impressed with my system.

I doubt it - SS is the problem

 

[Vladimir]

I doubt it - SS is the problem

Are you an official radical valve convert now Steve? *biggrin* You didn't have problem with SS before IIRC.

What brings more fidelity to the table, moving from SS to valves or moving from passive separates to an active setup?

 

[stevebrock]

I doubt it - SS is the problem

Are you an official radical valve convert now Steve? *biggrin* You didn't have problem with SS before IIRC.

What brings more fidelity to the table, moving from SS to valves or moving from passive separates to an active setup?

Tounge in cheek

 

[Vladimir]

I doubt it - SS is the problem

Are you an official radical valve convert now Steve? *biggrin* You didn't have problem with SS before IIRC.

What brings more fidelity to the table, moving from SS to valves or moving from passive separates to an active setup?

Tounge in cheek

Cool. Seriosly though, your opinion on: What brings more fidelity to the table, moving from SS to valves or moving from passive separates to an active setup?

 

[CnoEvil]

My Ports have moved Starboard, which is more Aft than they should be.....any suggestions as to which direction I should now go? *crazy*

 

[davedotco]

I doubt it - SS is the problem

Are you an official radical valve convert now Steve? *biggrin* You didn't have problem with SS before IIRC.

What brings more fidelity to the table, moving from SS to valves or moving from passive separates to an active setup?

Tounge in cheek

Cool. Seriosly though, your opinion on: What brings more fidelity to the table, moving from SS to valves or moving from passive separates to an active setup?

Seriously then.

Some people, myself very much so, are unhappy with the way the hi-fi market has moved in recent years. It is difficult to describe, but there is a quality (lack of) among most budget and mid fi systems. There is, to my ears a character to the performance that appears to over ride everything, a sort of over commercial presentation that is designed to impress but in reality does the music no justice. There are exceptions of course, but this is what I see as the general trend.

So I am always looking for ways to get round this, at the lower end I find active speakers get around this issue giving the presence and immediacy that I find so lacking, similarly at higher price levels I like the presentation of valve amplifiers into complementary loudspeakers. I see no contradiction here.

I do not think I go into this blind, I am well aware of the strength and weakness of my prefered option, the price of decent valve amplifiers, the lack of refinement from some of the cheaper active systems are two obvious examples.

These are personal views which I suspect are not shared by many on here, but there you are.

 

[CnoEvil]

These are personal views which I suspect are not shared by many on here, but there you are.

I suspect we have quite a lot in common, which is why most of my recomendations seldom come from the usual suspects.

 

[chebby]

Maybe if I take the innards from the Kandy and cram them inside the speakers, maybe then Dave would be impressed with my system.

You would need the power amps from four Kandys plus two electronic crossovers and they don't have to be inside the speakers to make the system active.

Too many people think 'active' is determined just by having the amps in the speakers. The topology of an active speaker system has nothing to do with where the amps or crossovers happen to be.

I know you know this but many people still get 'powered speakers' and 'active speakers' confused because they assume active just means 'amps in speaker boxes'.

Manufacturers (of passive, powered speakers) often let this confusion go unchecked because they can get away with passing off their product as 'active monitors' or somesuch. (Reviewers and dealers mostly don't know or don't even care what the difference is! One notable dealer of this parish will accuse you of pedantry or 'blinding' him with science if you try to explain there is a fundamental difference.)

 

[Vladimir]

@Dave

Can you point out to these active loudspeakers with valve amplification throughout?

@chebby

I know. I was only joking.

Just look at this sponge supported ribbon cable connected impressive machinery. I can only dream of such quality.

 

[chebby]

Just look at this sponge supported ribbon cable connected impressive machinery. I can only dream of such quality.

And a dead Persian cat it seems!

 

[Vladimir]

Just look at this sponge supported ribbon cable connected impressive machinery. I can only dream of such quality.

And a dead Persian cat it seems!

It helps the speakers purrr under 80Hz.

 

[lindsayt]

It's just that I've been wondering if the frequency at which sounds becomes non-directional depends on the room / system / listener, or if there's a single frequency at which it becomes non-directional for all circumstances.

Also I can hear the difference between a 50 hz and 60 hz test tone in my system. Wondering how many other people can too.

Just because the manufacturer of a 50 hz / 60 hz subwoofer says these frequencies sound the same, doesn't mean to say it's true.

And just because a manufacturer of 2.1 systems say bass is non-directional, doesn't mean to say it is at all frequencies covered by their sub-woofers.

 

[davedotco]

@Dave

Can you point out to these active loudspeakers with valve amplification throughout?

@chebby

I know. I was only joking.

Just look at this sponge supported ribbon cable connected impressive machinery. I can only dream of such quality.

I don't think I suggested there were any, though I have no doubt they exist somewhere.

That is 'advanced decoupling technology' Vlad.

 

[Vladimir]

Double post.

 

[Vladimir]

It's just that I've been wondering if the frequency at which sounds becomes non-directional depends on the room / system / listener, or if there's a single frequency at which it becomes non-directional for all circumstances.

Also I can hear the difference between a 50 hz and 60 hz test tone in my system. Wondering how many other people can too.

Just because the manufacturer of a 50 hz / 60 hz subwoofer says these frequencies sound the same, doesn't mean to say it's true.

And just because a manufacturer of 2.1 systems say bass is non-directional, doesn't mean to say it is at all frequencies covered by their sub-woofers.

With a test tone you can tell a difference. But not with music.

Lets say bass guitar and a kick drum are both playing a base frequency of 55Hz. They should sound the same (like test tones) but they don't because they also emit plenty of follow-up harmonics in addition to that base frequency (at 160Hz, at 200Hz etc.), giving instruments their unique tone/color/timbre. What also helps humans discern instruments is their behaviour in the time domain (attack, sustain, release, decay).

Now, if you replace any frequency under 120Hz with any other frequency under 120Hz, as long as you maintain the amplitude, time domain behaviour and rest of the harmonics are reproduces as they would come from the original base frequency, humans cannot discern the difference. Swap the 55Hz of the kick drum for an 80Hz and it will sound the same, but with music (with harmonics), not test tones.

To read more on the subject how this is implemented in audio, lookup Ronald M. Arts (former engineer at Philips).

If you think that is unbeliavable, check this out. Musicians can't differentiate an original Stradivarius violin from a cheap modern Yamaha one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtlTJkbUqkA

 

[Vladimir]

@Dave

Can you point out to these active loudspeakers with valve amplification throughout?

I don't think I suggested there were any, though I have no doubt they exist somewhere.

I can see the future...

 

[davedotco]

@Dave

Can you point out to these active loudspeakers with valve amplification throughout?

I don't think I suggested there were any, though I have no doubt they exist somewhere.

I can see the future...

Actually, on reflection, I think I see the past.

It is a long time ago but I am pretty sure that I have installed monitors into studios that used valve power amplifiers and I can certainly remember a studio that used Urie monitors (time alligned Altec 604s) with McIntosh valve power.

Struggling to think of an active setup involving valves that I have actually seen.

 

[chebby]

Surely two valve power amps and an electronic crossover and a pair of 2-way speakers with direct connections (no crossovers) will do the job.

As I said earlier, an active system doesn't mean the amplifiers have to live inside the speaker cabinets.

Linn and Naim make solid-state power amps and seperate electronic crossovers and also make (optional) speakers without built-in crossovers. (The first and most obvious brands to spring to mind, but i'm sure other companies make suitable electronic crossovers.)

It's not an outlandish idea to substitute valve power amps into such a configuration so long as the electronic crossover can be tailored to the speakers being used.

Expensive though.

 

[steve_1979]

Several of Quested's more expensive monitors and subwoofers use external amplifiers and crossovers on their active speakers.

 

[ID.]

Several of Quested's more expensive monitors and subwoofers use external amplifiers and crossovers on their active speakers.

I know Fostex' top of the range active monitors use off-board power amplification, but have no idea whether it is feasible to substitute valve power amps rather than the Accuphase power amps it is designed to work with.

 

[Vladimir]

Any valve active crossovers out there?