AVI or ? to match Michell Orbe (Ashley pls advice?)

[plastic penguin]

I'm not entirely sure how that got through the filter anyway, but I put it down to the recent forum downgrade.

I put it down to alcohol.

In that case, If I was you I'd give it up.

 

[plastic penguin]

Absolutely nothing wrong with Plastic giving a contrary opinion, especially given that the OP was after opinions of AVI and beyond.

The main thing to remember with 'Active'speakers is that other manufacturers will tell you that their ultimate product is or would be 'active'.

AVI had a huge reputation for all standard 'seperates' hifi but abandoned it all because going 'active', if done properly, just blows away other gear - certainly in VFM and IMO absolute terms.

The only point was that if you are looking foe an active type sound but want or need a passive set-up, then from what I've read over the years (and I've interpreted correctly) the Leema comes the closest.

In fact, one of my favourite integrated amps from a few years ago was (deep breath everyone)... AVI lab series.

 

[davedotco]

I don't understand why this is getting so fractious.

Buy new, buy secondhand, whatever you like, the only point being thay they are not directly comparable.

The OP has heard a system based around AVI electronics which he likes. He already has an AVI phono stage.

In what universe is a pair of ADM9rs not a good suggestion in this instance.......*unknw*

 

[Jota180]

Relocated, you've said that AVI actives are the best speakers you've ever auditioned.

For me, they are about the 16th best out 20 speakers that I can think of off the top of my head, that I've heard in a bake-off / comparative demo situation. There are also lots more I've heard in show conditions that would be good candidates for being active AVI beaters. But that was only show conditions which are unreliable for judging the true merits of any system. And there are lots and lots of speakers that I've never heard before that would be strong odds-on favourites to beat active AVI's.

You don't even need to spend a lot of money to get better sound quality than active AVI's. Of the 15 speakers (out of 20) from my list that beat them, 9 of them could be bought with suitable amplification for less than the price of the 2nd hand AVI's linked to earlier in this thread - some of them a lot less.

So why do you rank them so highly whilst I rank them so lowly?

It could be because I've tried a much wider range of genres of speakers than you.

It could be that you have some sort of emotional vested interest in active AVI speakers.

It could be that we have different priorities in what's important when it comes to sonic compromises in speakers.

Or it could be some combination of the above.

I could get my favourite speakers to sound somewhat like AVI ADM 9RS's by passing the signal through a compressor and graphic equaliser set in a dome shape so that some of the treble was filtered out and the bass from 100 hz downwards was progressively filtered out. I guess some people might even prefer this type of flat, uninvolving presentation as it allows them to concentrate on midrange detail more easily.

For the original posters taste in music, something like Goodmans Magisters would be far better than AVI ADM 9RS's. His existing amplification would be fine with easy to drive speakers like the Goodmans. Buying speakers for 200 Euros would leave him with enough cash to try a different arm to his SME. The Yamaha NS 1000 range would be a good choice too, but at more money than the Goodmans. Bass heavy music really deserves 3 way speakers. Well designed ones. Preferably in a sealed box. Minimimum of 12" / 30 cm diameter for the bass driver. With good quality drivers.

It could be your ears are knackered. Who knows?

 

[plastic penguin]

I don't understand why this is getting so fractious.

Buy new, buy secondhand, whatever you like, the only point being thay they are not directly comparable.

The OP has heard a system based around AVI electronics which he likes. He already has an AVI phono stage.

In what universe is a pair of ADM9rs not a good suggestion in this instance.......*unknw*

Only because any alternative suggested gets blown out of the water. As I've mentioned many times before I don't have an issue with the concept of active or powered speakers, only with some owners who think nothing else will do at any price.

AVI owners seem to have a seige mentality. That's way beyond my comprehension for someone who loves music and has an excellent passive set-up.

 

[davedotco]

I don't understand why this is getting so fractious.

Buy new, buy secondhand, whatever you like, the only point being thay they are not directly comparable.

The OP has heard a system based around AVI electronics which he likes. He already has an AVI phono stage.

In what universe is a pair of ADM9rs not a good suggestion in this instance.......*unknw*

Only because any alternative suggested gets blown out of the water. As I've mentioned many times before I don't have an issue with the concept of active or powered speakers, only with some owners who think nothing else will do at any price.

AVI owners seem to have a seige mentality. That's way beyond my comprehension for someone who loves music and has an excellent passive set-up.

And I could say that users of 'normal' passive systems have a 'siege mentality' over anything that challenges the status quo.

In this case it is all bullsh!t, the ADM9 recomendation was based on the OP's liking of an AVI system he had heard and the fact that he has an AVI phono stage,

Nothing else, no agenda. The OP liked an AVI system, the best and most suited current AVI setup is the ADM9rs.

 

[Alec]

As I've mentioned many times before I don't have an issue with the concept of active or powered speakers...

/quote]

I like proper hi-fi, not powered speakers.

[/quote

 

[davedotco]

As I've mentioned many times before I don't have an issue with the concept of active or powered speakers...

/quote]

I like proper hi-fi, not powered speakers.

[/quote

*ROFL*

BTW. formatting wise this forum is completely fooooked.

 

[plastic penguin]

I don't have issue with any active monitors, but my personal choice would not be actives. Yes, I think proper hi-fi is about boxes, knobs, flashing lights... all the things actives (generally) don't have.

 

[Alec]

powered are fine now, and it's actives you dislike, or is it both? I'm nearly as confused as you...

 

[plastic penguin]

powered are fine now, and it's actives you dislike, or is it both? I'm nearly as confused as you...

What's the difference?

 

[Dave_]

powered are fine now, and it's actives you dislike, or is it both? I'm nearly as confused as you...

What's the difference?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powered_speakers#Differences_between_passive.2C_powered_and_active_speakers

 

[Al ears]

powered are fine now, and it's actives you dislike, or is it both? I'm nearly as confused as you...

What's the difference?

Uh oh! Here we go .............

a) A powered loudspeaker works the same way as a passive speaker but the power amplifier is built into the loudspeaker enclosure. This design is common in compact personal speakers such as those used to amplify portable digital music devices.

b) In a fully active loudspeaker system each driver has its own dedicated power amplifier. The low-level audio signal is first sent through an active crossover to split the audio signal into the appropriate frequency ranges before being sent to the power amplifiers and then on to the drivers. This design is commonly seen in studio monitors and professional concert audio

meanwhile back at the original posting ............ (he says quickly retreiving coat and exiting)

 

[Al ears]

On the speakers front I might suggest you take a look at the new Epos K2 floorstanders that come as passive units but are going to be (eventually) available with Creek designed inbuilt amp units that will be user-swappable.

 

[chebby]

It's interesting that many people still confuse powered and active designs just because the amplification is inside the speaker cabinet.

In fact active configurations don't have to have the amplification (or even the electronic crossovers/filters) inside the speaker cabinets.

Naim active systems have long been an example where pre/power/crossover electronics are housed in separate boxes external to the speakers. (And who have sold crossoverless versions of their passive speaker models and still do with their Ovator range.)

Another example would be the Linn Kiko where the amplifiers, inputs and outputs, digital crossover, streaming hardware and preamplifier are all housed outside of the speakers in a separate unit.

Linn have been making active systems in separate boxes for donkey's years by making 'Aktiv' crossover cards that can be inserted into their power amps. Linn also make crossoverless version of their speakers for these applications.

 

[ID.]

Yes, I think proper hi-fi is about boxes, knobs, flashing lights... all the things actives (generally) don't have.

Boxes - I have a small DAC/preamp, does that count? I guess you don't count speaker cabinets.

Flashing lights - there's an LED on the Pre/DAC and one on each speaker, but they don't flash.

Knobs- two on my pre/DAC (volume and source selector), one volume knob on the front of each speaker and three dials on the back of each speaker for adjusting shelving of highs and lows, etc.

Still, I am also partial to some dancing VU meters as featured on Luxman integrated amps.

 

[Alec]

It's interesting that many people still confuse powered and active designs just because the amplification is inside the speaker cabinet.

In fact active configurations don't have to have the amplification (or even the electronic crossovers/filters) inside the speaker cabinets.

Naim active systems have long been an example where pre/power/crossover electronics are housed in separate boxes external to the speakers. (And who have sold crossoverless versions of their passive speaker models and still do with their Ovator range.)

Another example would be the Linn Kiko where the amplifiers, inputs and outputs, digital crossover, streaming hardware and preamplifier are all housed outside of the speakers in a separate unit.

Linn have been making active systems in separate boxes for donkey's years by making 'Aktiv' crossover cards that can be inserted into their power amps. Linn also make crossoverless version of their speakers for these applications.

Al ears's is basically the explanation Andrew gave a few years ago. If that isn't the definition, what marks out an active speaker? Is it still the order of the amp and crossover?

To be fair, even manufacturers and retailers often call powered speakers active, as one forumite resistent to Andrew's definition protested to me a while ago. I just fancied having a pop at PP, as he felt like having a few completely unnecessary goes at folk himself. I think places like this are the only places it matters. If a Man On The Street asked me about active speakers, and it was clear that they meant powered, I wouldn't necessarily feel the need to correct them. I didn't understand them when I bought some - I just wanted the added convenience not having a separate amp and, in this case, DAC.

 

[davedotco]

It's interesting that many people still confuse powered and active designs just because the amplification is inside the speaker cabinet.

In fact active configurations don't have to have the amplification (or even the electronic crossovers/filters) inside the speaker cabinets.

Naim active systems have long been an example where pre/power/crossover electronics are housed in separate boxes external to the speakers. (And who have sold crossoverless versions of their passive speaker models and still do with their Ovator range.)

Another example would be the Linn Kiko where the amplifiers, inputs and outputs, digital crossover, streaming hardware and preamplifier are all housed outside of the speakers in a separate unit.

Linn have been making active systems in separate boxes for donkey's years by making 'Aktiv' crossover cards that can be inserted into their power amps. Linn also make crossoverless version of their speakers for these applications.

This is all quite correct of course, back in the day the Linn or Naim active systems had more boxes than you could imagine, even an 'entry level' Naim setup would have a minimum of 6 boxes. Early Linn systems were similar, though the later Activ cards were a great step forward.

The big advantage with 'integrated' active systems is the cost, all those expensive cases just disappear and the onboard amplifiers can be 'dedicated' to the system, not universal models designed to work with all kinds of setups.

As we all know, casework and power supplies are the most expensive items, the cases are done away with entirely and the power supplies do not have to deal with some inefficient speaker of low impedence that the amps owner might fancy. Big cost savings with no compromise in performance.

At the risk of causing another row, look at the ADM9RS. A high performance dac, with digital and analogue inputs, remote control, active crossover and two high powered amplifiers per speaker. All for just £1250.

Sure you might not like how it sounds or you might need greater funtionality but for a lot of people using a simple streamer or computer system this could easily be all they need.

 

[relocated]

Relocated, you've said that AVI actives are the best speakers you've ever auditioned.

For me, they are about the 16th best out 20 speakers that I can think of off the top of my head, that I've heard in a bake-off / comparative demo situation. There are also lots more I've heard in show conditions that would be good candidates for being active AVI beaters. But that was only show conditions which are unreliable for judging the true merits of any system. And there are lots and lots of speakers that I've never heard before that would be strong odds-on favourites to beat active AVI's.

You don't even need to spend a lot of money to get better sound quality than active AVI's. Of the 15 speakers (out of 20) from my list that beat them, 9 of them could be bought with suitable amplification for less than the price of the 2nd hand AVI's linked to earlier in this thread - some of them a lot less.

So why do you rank them so highly whilst I rank them so lowly?

It could be because I've tried a much wider range of genres of speakers than you.

It could be that you have some sort of emotional vested interest in active AVI speakers.

It could be that we have different priorities in what's important when it comes to sonic compromises in speakers.

Or it could be some combination of the above.

I could get my favourite speakers to sound somewhat like AVI ADM 9RS's by passing the signal through a compressor and graphic equaliser set in a dome shape so that some of the treble was filtered out and the bass from 100 hz downwards was progressively filtered out. I guess some people might even prefer this type of flat, uninvolving presentation as it allows them to concentrate on midrange detail more easily.

For the original posters taste in music, something like Goodmans Magisters would be far better than AVI ADM 9RS's. His existing amplification would be fine with easy to drive speakers like the Goodmans. Buying speakers for 200 Euros would leave him with enough cash to try a different arm to his SME. The Yamaha NS 1000 range would be a good choice too, but at more money than the Goodmans. Bass heavy music really deserves 3 way speakers. Well designed ones. Preferably in a sealed box. Minimimum of 12" / 30 cm diameter for the bass driver. With good quality drivers.

Why oh why do you trot out the same out-of-date, by decades, rubbish???????? You like this stuff, that's just great, but to recommend it to someone nowadays, unless they specifically like heritage hifi, is laughable.

We all know you have a 'thing' against AVI and at one time you had a whole hoard of AVI haters at your side, but times [ unlike your good self] change. I can assure you that I came to AVI after 40 years of extensive traditional hifi ownership, had/have a number of friends as interested as I am/was, have sold/demoed hifi and have had more demos and show demos than you could shake a stick at. I know perfectly well how large heritage speakers sound, I had Tannoys with 15" dual concentric drivers and AVI has incalculably better bass.

Yes of course there are other 'active' speakers and if competently designed and manufactured will sound better than anything you're suggesting. However their design and manufacture are not to my liking but AVI are. So, amazing sounding, beatifully finished and domestically acceptable, incredible VFM speakers win I'm afraid.

So, have a nice life. Enjoy what you enjoy, but don't kid yourself and especially others that your recommendations hold water nowadays.

 

[Al ears]

Whilst the Active / Passive debate gets quietly out of hand (again) I was wondering why lindsayt mentions the need to try a different tonearm? Where did that one come from?

The OP has a real quality TT set-up with a very fine SME 309 and a very decent Zyx cartridge (I love 'em) not at all sure what changing tonearms has go to do with it.

 

[chebby]

It's interesting that many people still confuse powered and active designs just because the amplification is inside the speaker cabinet.

In fact active configurations don't have to have the amplification (or even the electronic crossovers/filters) inside the speaker cabinets.

Naim active systems have long been an example where pre/power/crossover electronics are housed in separate boxes external to the speakers. (And who have sold crossoverless versions of their passive speaker models and still do with their Ovator range.)

Another example would be the Linn Kiko where the amplifiers, inputs and outputs, digital crossover, streaming hardware and preamplifier are all housed outside of the speakers in a separate unit.

Linn have been making active systems in separate boxes for donkey's years by making 'Aktiv' crossover cards that can be inserted into their power amps. Linn also make crossoverless version of their speakers for these applications.

This is all quite correct of course, back in the day the Linn or Naim active systems had more boxes than you could imagine, even an 'entry level' Naim setup would have a minimum of 6 boxes. Early Linn systems were similar, though the later Activ cards were a great step forward.

The big advantage with 'integrated' active systems is the cost, all those expensive cases just disappear and the onboard amplifiers can be 'dedicated' to the system, not universal models designed to work with all kinds of setups.

As we all know, casework and power supplies are the most expensive items, the cases are done away with entirely and the power supplies do not have to deal with some inefficient speaker of low impedence that the amps owner might fancy. Big cost savings with no compromise in performance.

At the risk of causing another row, look at the ADM9RS. A high performance dac, with digital and analogue inputs, remote control, active crossover and two high powered amplifiers per speaker. All for just £1250.

Sure you might not like how it sounds or you might need greater funtionality but for a lot of people using a simple streamer or computer system this could easily be all they need.

I was just trying to illustrate - with some examples - that active topology is not defined by whether it is all housed inside a speaker cabinet. There is obviously still some confusion on this point.

 

[Alec]

It's interesting that many people still confuse powered and active designs just because the amplification is inside the speaker cabinet.

In fact active configurations don't have to have the amplification (or even the electronic crossovers/filters) inside the speaker cabinets.

Naim active systems have long been an example where pre/power/crossover electronics are housed in separate boxes external to the speakers. (And who have sold crossoverless versions of their passive speaker models and still do with their Ovator range.)

Another example would be the Linn Kiko where the amplifiers, inputs and outputs, digital crossover, streaming hardware and preamplifier are all housed outside of the speakers in a separate unit.

Linn have been making active systems in separate boxes for donkey's years by making 'Aktiv' crossover cards that can be inserted into their power amps. Linn also make crossoverless version of their speakers for these applications.

This is all quite correct of course, back in the day the Linn or Naim active systems had more boxes than you could imagine, even an 'entry level' Naim setup would have a minimum of 6 boxes. Early Linn systems were similar, though the later Activ cards were a great step forward.

The big advantage with 'integrated' active systems is the cost, all those expensive cases just disappear and the onboard amplifiers can be 'dedicated' to the system, not universal models designed to work with all kinds of setups.

As we all know, casework and power supplies are the most expensive items, the cases are done away with entirely and the power supplies do not have to deal with some inefficient speaker of low impedence that the amps owner might fancy. Big cost savings with no compromise in performance.

At the risk of causing another row, look at the ADM9RS. A high performance dac, with digital and analogue inputs, remote control, active crossover and two high powered amplifiers per speaker. All for just £1250.

Sure you might not like how it sounds or you might need greater funtionality but for a lot of people using a simple streamer or computer system this could easily be all they need.

I was just trying to illustrate - with some examples - that active topology is not defined by whether it is all housed inside a speaker cabinet. There is obviously still some confusion on this point.

You made your point. Did you notice he agreed with you? Doesn't matter in a way, though, does it? Virtually everyone who buys actives will buy ones with everything built in, won't they?

 

[chebby]

It's interesting that many people still confuse powered and active designs just because the amplification is inside the speaker cabinet.

In fact active configurations don't have to have the amplification (or even the electronic crossovers/filters) inside the speaker cabinets.

Naim active systems have long been an example where pre/power/crossover electronics are housed in separate boxes external to the speakers. (And who have sold crossoverless versions of their passive speaker models and still do with their Ovator range.)

Another example would be the Linn Kiko where the amplifiers, inputs and outputs, digital crossover, streaming hardware and preamplifier are all housed outside of the speakers in a separate unit.

Linn have been making active systems in separate boxes for donkey's years by making 'Aktiv' crossover cards that can be inserted into their power amps. Linn also make crossoverless version of their speakers for these applications.

This is all quite correct of course, back in the day the Linn or Naim active systems had more boxes than you could imagine, even an 'entry level' Naim setup would have a minimum of 6 boxes. Early Linn systems were similar, though the later Activ cards were a great step forward.

The big advantage with 'integrated' active systems is the cost, all those expensive cases just disappear and the onboard amplifiers can be 'dedicated' to the system, not universal models designed to work with all kinds of setups.

As we all know, casework and power supplies are the most expensive items, the cases are done away with entirely and the power supplies do not have to deal with some inefficient speaker of low impedence that the amps owner might fancy. Big cost savings with no compromise in performance.

At the risk of causing another row, look at the ADM9RS. A high performance dac, with digital and analogue inputs, remote control, active crossover and two high powered amplifiers per speaker. All for just £1250.

Sure you might not like how it sounds or you might need greater funtionality but for a lot of people using a simple streamer or computer system this could easily be all they need.

I was just trying to illustrate - with some examples - that active topology is not defined by whether it is all housed inside a speaker cabinet. There is obviously still some confusion on this point.

You made your point. Did you notice he agreed with you? Doesn't matter in a way, though, does it? Virtually everyone who buys actives will buy ones with everything built in, won't they?

Indeed. Companies like Sonos probably shift more of their active Play speakers than everyone else's active products put together.

 

[plastic penguin]

Sure there's a conspiracy against me, and the thread is blown out of all proportion. I get accused of this and that, yet my initial post was just an alternative to the OP -- balanced, fair and honest appraisal (with a little humour, too).

"Now I've not heard any actives, but from the countless posts I've read about their ability, sonic signature, the closest I've heard is my set-up.

Yes, Leema Pulse MKI and PMC speakers. The bass is as controlled and taut as a very taut thing, the top-end is crisp and the midrange is immensely expressive. From what I've read, the only thing a AVI owner would miss is the outright clarity (there's honesty for you), but again this is going purely on all comments written about the fabled AVIs.

Add into the Leema equation is a shed-load of analogue inputs and a fabulous double-sided phono stage for turntables. No need to faff with buying extra boxes and gizmos.

That said, it could be b#####ks and I look the idiot."

Cno offers alternatives of Bel Canto + LS50s as alternatives and later R300 to go with the OP's Cyrus, yet no-one batters an eyelid. Wish there was more parity when it came to other posters replies. Why not tell Cno "it's a price thing"?

 

[Jota180]

What do most recording studio's use these days, passive or actives?