I have been hearing a lot about how good the Audiolab M-Dac is as a dac and it seems to be mentioned almost as an aside that it can function as a preamp. Does anyone have any insight into its capabilities as a preamp? How does it compare to the various Cyrus pre/dac combos for instance? I am currently using a Rega Dac to feed a biamping Cyrus 8vs2/x-power and thinking about replacing the Rega and 8vs2 with the M-Dac. Any comments on this? I am using MA GS10 speakers.
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Do you stream hi-res music or download hi-res tracks? We want your opinions!
Audiolab M-Dac as preamp
- Thread starter Si Conaugt
- Start date
The designer John Westlake says it is best to use XLRs directly into the PowerAmps. This is what he does himself.
jakesterboy said:
There is a PSU upgrade called the M-PAX due which will allow it to take analogue inputs.
is the psu available yet? there is a lot of talk on forums but nothing real, seems like vaporware
Hi the M-PAX is due at the end of the year. However it is unclear as to whether this will be an Audiolab product instead it seems it will be released as a 'Lakewest' product (John Westlake the designer Czech company) and will include modifications to the circuit board (for the full M-PAX). The problem with this will be twofold: 1/ It will invalidate any Audiolab warranty and 2/ You will have to send your M-DAC to Czech Republic it seems (note to readers 🙂 please correct me if I've got any of this wrong).
Instead you could try this tweak which I've found to work very well and shouldn't invalidate your warranty (assuming you wire your IEC correctly): Cut off the mains cable coming out of your Audiolab M-DAC PSU (mains side don't touch the DAC side!) leaving about 4-6 inches of 2 core mains left. Then fit a good quality male IEC plug - I used a Silver plated Martin Kaiser male IEC which can be picked up for less than a tenner. To this connect one of the many good quality mains power cables available I own several myself but for one that is cheap but in my opinion stands up well to much more expensive power cables (like the Russ Andrews Reference Powerkord) I would recommend the excellent WM Audio mains power cable (available from WM Audio via ebay for about £30 - why haven't What Hifi done a review???). I use this combo myself and I find that once modified the M-DAC takes a surprising leap forward in SQ. On 'Home' for example by Sheryl Crow (a test track of mine) it sounds as if she and her band have taken a few paces forward in the sound stage and the bass in particular is much firmer and more extended. Doubters: - please try this before saying it can't be true:shame: .
Instead you could try this tweak which I've found to work very well and shouldn't invalidate your warranty (assuming you wire your IEC correctly): Cut off the mains cable coming out of your Audiolab M-DAC PSU (mains side don't touch the DAC side!) leaving about 4-6 inches of 2 core mains left. Then fit a good quality male IEC plug - I used a Silver plated Martin Kaiser male IEC which can be picked up for less than a tenner. To this connect one of the many good quality mains power cables available I own several myself but for one that is cheap but in my opinion stands up well to much more expensive power cables (like the Russ Andrews Reference Powerkord) I would recommend the excellent WM Audio mains power cable (available from WM Audio via ebay for about £30 - why haven't What Hifi done a review???). I use this combo myself and I find that once modified the M-DAC takes a surprising leap forward in SQ. On 'Home' for example by Sheryl Crow (a test track of mine) it sounds as if she and her band have taken a few paces forward in the sound stage and the bass in particular is much firmer and more extended. Doubters: - please try this before saying it can't be true:shame: .
I've changed from the Rega dac to the Audiolab M-DAC and I find it better, but only via a decent preamp. I have a Croft Series 7 power amp (valve/mosfet hybrid) and using the M-DAC as a preamp it is distinctly 'flat, bland and uninvolving' however disabling the preamp and using my Audionote M-Zero R preamp suddenly the sound is much more three dimensional, open, involving and yes surprisingly, detailed.
WishTree
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- May 18, 2010
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Hairy said:
Are you serious? I am not going to loose the original Power supply connection just to try out a Power Chord tweak which may or may not work. Even worse is the entire length of the power chord is not replaced.. some portion still hangs out from the Power Block.
Thanks but no thanks.
WishTree
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- May 18, 2010
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I have posted elsewhere too about the pre-amp section of M-DAC. Audiolab M-DAC is, IMO, best among Rega DAC, MF M1 DAC, Pioneer N-50 (which is a streamer + DAC).
However the pre-amp section is really the weak link. It is there to give the added flexibility but will never match any true pre-amp. With M-DAC as DAC+pre you loose depth, dynamics and soundstage.. alot.
I have tried it my Classe CA-2100 power amp as well as driving with Classe CAP 2100 integrated amp.
I can go to the extent of saying that if one is serious about listening to music they should get a very good pre-amp as the first step and the M-DAC, though a great DAC, it is no good as a pre-amp
However the pre-amp section is really the weak link. It is there to give the added flexibility but will never match any true pre-amp. With M-DAC as DAC+pre you loose depth, dynamics and soundstage.. alot.
I have tried it my Classe CA-2100 power amp as well as driving with Classe CAP 2100 integrated amp.
I can go to the extent of saying that if one is serious about listening to music they should get a very good pre-amp as the first step and the M-DAC, though a great DAC, it is no good as a pre-amp
Would you guys who own the M-DAC and a pre-amp mind trying an experiment for me pretty please?
I own a Croft Micro 25 pre-amp; I love the sound but would like the convenience of a remote control for the volume. I am considering the M-DAC so I could have this function in pre-amp mode bust still use my Croft as well.
Could you try (or maybe you already have experience) the pre-amp in the chain as well as the M-DAC in pre-amp mode to see if it has an adverse effect on the sound?
I am wondering if having the pre-amp function on the M-DAC has any impact on the sound. Is the flat sound because the lack of a pre-amp or actually because of the pre-amp stage of the DAC. I’m hoping I can get the best of both worlds.
Thanks.
I own a Croft Micro 25 pre-amp; I love the sound but would like the convenience of a remote control for the volume. I am considering the M-DAC so I could have this function in pre-amp mode bust still use my Croft as well.
Could you try (or maybe you already have experience) the pre-amp in the chain as well as the M-DAC in pre-amp mode to see if it has an adverse effect on the sound?
I am wondering if having the pre-amp function on the M-DAC has any impact on the sound. Is the flat sound because the lack of a pre-amp or actually because of the pre-amp stage of the DAC. I’m hoping I can get the best of both worlds.
Thanks.
I agree entirely with your observations about the M-DAC as a preamp, though it's often said that a good valve preamp will nearly always improve a digital/solid state source (probably also true if a valve buffer was used - though I've not tried this personally). As for the tweak, OK no one was forcing you! But for myself I'm perfectly happy with the results and so is my wife who only listens occasionally to the system.😉
Hi, you could sell your Croft Micro 25 and go for what I have (works excellently with the Croft Series 7 power amp) which is an Audionote M Zero 'R' preamp (which features remote control) - this is available NOS from ebay seller Emporium Hifi for £399 (this is about 10 years old, but mint NIB stocks are still available - this is how I bought my version). However, I'm not sure that this would be much better in SQ than your excellent Croft 25 and you'd lose the phono stage (if you've got a turntable).
Has anyone heard or got the Audiolab 8200DQ?
Its got a DAC with same Sabre DAC as the M-DAC, but also has a preamp with analog inputs.
If its identical to the CDQ (just missing the cd player) surely it would be a really good product. Seems to get no exposure or press though?
Its got a DAC with same Sabre DAC as the M-DAC, but also has a preamp with analog inputs.
If its identical to the CDQ (just missing the cd player) surely it would be a really good product. Seems to get no exposure or press though?
I won't ever sell my Croft, it's my newest addition and frankly I just love it too much to ever part with it. :dance:
Busb – Perfect! Thank you for taking the time to answer so comprehensively. You really answered my question and it’s also what I wanted to hear.
I've ran my M-DAC in both modes into my existing Restek Challenger integrated amp. I'm currently running it into the "Main Input" that bypasses the preamp section but requires the volume control to be set to max (on the the amp) so is not a true power amp mode. I've also ran the M-DAC via XLR leads into a borrowed Primare A34.2 power amp for a week that sounded absolutely stunning. Connecting with phono leads did degrade the sound but not by much.
John Westlake has stated that the only difference between modes is that when not set "preamp" is that the output is set digitally to 0dB & the volume control only works when headphones are connected (which mutes all line outs). The signal path is actually identical in either mode. If there's a drop in SQ when connected directly to a power amp rather to a preamp, I'd suggest there's a mismatch between the DAC & certain power amps rather than the DAC's output stage being weak or that the gain of that power amp is so high that the DAC's volume control needs to be cranked down too low in its range. If one was to connect this DAC to a preamp with the audiolab set to "preamp" mode & the volume control at 0dB, it would sound the same as when the volume control was bypassed.
There has some experimenting done with various values of passive attenuators between the M-DAC & power amps to raise the operating range of the M-DAC's volume control that has had mixed results. The consensus being that setting the volume control lower down in its range does not effect SQ in any significant manner unless the amp has stupidly high gain with kwatt outputs. Every 3dB step on the M-DAC doubles or halves the power to the speakers (or perceived volume). There's only a 3dB increase going from 100 to 200Ws & the DAC has an 83dB range in 1dB steps. It controls volume beautifully, especially right down the bottom of its range where you can barely hear anything coming from your speakers.
John Westlake has stated that the only difference between modes is that when not set "preamp" is that the output is set digitally to 0dB & the volume control only works when headphones are connected (which mutes all line outs). The signal path is actually identical in either mode. If there's a drop in SQ when connected directly to a power amp rather to a preamp, I'd suggest there's a mismatch between the DAC & certain power amps rather than the DAC's output stage being weak or that the gain of that power amp is so high that the DAC's volume control needs to be cranked down too low in its range. If one was to connect this DAC to a preamp with the audiolab set to "preamp" mode & the volume control at 0dB, it would sound the same as when the volume control was bypassed.
There has some experimenting done with various values of passive attenuators between the M-DAC & power amps to raise the operating range of the M-DAC's volume control that has had mixed results. The consensus being that setting the volume control lower down in its range does not effect SQ in any significant manner unless the amp has stupidly high gain with kwatt outputs. Every 3dB step on the M-DAC doubles or halves the power to the speakers (or perceived volume). There's only a 3dB increase going from 100 to 200Ws & the DAC has an 83dB range in 1dB steps. It controls volume beautifully, especially right down the bottom of its range where you can barely hear anything coming from your speakers.
bluedroog said:
I've found the phono links so I can return my amp to integrated mode so can double-check the differences in SQ. I've also done research on the difference between various manufacturers' pre & power input impedances. Some are identical such as both being 15k or 7.5k Ohms each whilst others are very different between models that would naturally be paired together. From that I conclude that driving a power amp from an M-DAC can work perfectly well but is going to be model dependent. If I can hear any appreciable between the DAC's modes, I'll report back.
Native_bon
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- Nov 26, 2008
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I connected the Audiolab M-DAC to the my studio Active speakers & it sounded very nice indeed. Am actually thinking of getting another one for a second room to use with active Rokit 6 speakers.
Some people may not agree, but the sound of the Audiolab M-dac using the XLR out direct to the active speakers beats some systems that course thousands of pounds..
The sound was very musical relaxed & open.
I think now adays if you match well, you can get very good sound from cheap Hifi.
Some people may not agree, but the sound of the Audiolab M-dac using the XLR out direct to the active speakers beats some systems that course thousands of pounds..
The sound was very musical relaxed & open.
I think now adays if you match well, you can get very good sound from cheap Hifi.
I have recently purchased the mdac to fit into my all cyrus system. Before purchase and considerable listening decided that the mdac sounded better than the Cyrus dac, however, after purchase I thought that I would bypass my Cyrus xp preamp and try the mdac as a preamp. Unfortunately it does not sound anywhere as good as my system when using the cyrus. I don't know if this would be different in another system, but in my experience in the context of my system, I would use it as dac only. It is superb!!
I recently bought an 8200p to pair with an mdac to replace my Rotel ra12 and I have to say it's pretty underwhelming to be honest. The rotel sounded better on it's own so I swapped out the mdac and used the rotels pre out to feed the 8200p and that made a real difference. The sound of the rotel 8200p combo has more controlled bass and a bit more sparkle, just more life to the music in general rather than using the mdac.
As the rotel has a built in dac the mdac will be going. The mdac is a nice bit of kit but it's been over hyped something rotten.
As the rotel has a built in dac the mdac will be going. The mdac is a nice bit of kit but it's been over hyped something rotten.
I run my M-dac with its volume set to 0db and run it through a AS Passion passive preamp as this to my ears sounds better than running the m-dac dirent to my mono blocked Xpowers.
I have a lot of gain in my system so if i use the m-dac as preamp its only showing 60db or so its display and this means its running low resolution so i run the m-dac full volume through a passive preamp which means the m-dac is running full resolution.
This is only worth doing if you own a good preamp or any advantage would be lost and m-dac direct would be the most transparent option.
https://sites.google.com/site/ayupfromdik/files/ASpassion1.jpg?attredirects=0&d=1
I have a lot of gain in my system so if i use the m-dac as preamp its only showing 60db or so its display and this means its running low resolution so i run the m-dac full volume through a passive preamp which means the m-dac is running full resolution.
This is only worth doing if you own a good preamp or any advantage would be lost and m-dac direct would be the most transparent option.
https://sites.google.com/site/ayupfromdik/files/ASpassion1.jpg?attredirects=0&d=1
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