Al ears
Well-known member
marb67 said:
Yep. Speakers are good (made in Plymouth like I was
) and well worth repairing. Very much like Heybrook HB1's. What amp do you have?
Yep. Speakers are good (made in Plymouth like I was
) and well worth repairing. Very much like Heybrook HB1's. What amp do you have?
Al ears said:marb67 said:
Yep. Speakers are good (made in Plymouth like I was
I have a Rotel 930 but some of the swiches are starting to not quite engage the different inputs without giving them a quick wiggle. One of the speakers sometimes cuts out again, wiggling the switch brings it back. Apart from that the sound that it produces is good.
Al ears
Well-known member
marb67 said:Al ears said:marb67 said:
Yep. Speakers are good (made in Plymouth like I was
I have a Rotel 930 but some of the swiches are starting to not quite engage the different inputs without giving them a quick wiggle. One of the speakers sometimes cuts out again, wiggling the switch brings it back. Apart from that the sound that it produces is good.
Some good old Servicol contact cleaner wouldn't go amiss
chebby
Well-known member
marb67 said:
I have JPW Sonatas of roughly the same vintage as your AP2s (and probably also made in HMP Channings Wood and/or HM Dartmoor). They are superb.
Wilmslow Audio are actually using a photoshopped picture of JPW AP2s to advertise their Heybrook HB1 replicas (they are all basically that similar to each other) ...
http://www.wilmslow-audio.co.uk/wa-hb1-loudspeaker-2125-p.as
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh107/pure_sound/AP2swithnewdrivers.jpg
Al ears
Well-known member
chebby said:
What makes you think they are not actually HB1's chebby?
Sorry, ignore that. They clearly aren't.
Ok, seeing as you are all familiar with my ongoing quest I will kepp it here.
I have got the AT440MLB installed, balanced and just waiting for the Technics gauge to arrive to get it exact although I have measured with a ruler to 52mm as stated as the ideal needle distance. In all honesty I am not blown away by the difference in sound. Some vinyl, especially electronic music sounds good (eg Kraftwek) but a lot of records, despite cleaning with carbon fibre brush still sound horribly crackily, even when they look clean. Granted some of my vinyl has surface mould growth of some kind so I won't play those but the good, clean vinyl I thought would sound clean. I was led to believe (from various reviews) that this cart goes deeper into the grove where it hasn't been played and the crackly noise goes. It may be too early to judge as I haven't got the gauge but as I have measured it myself pretty spot on I can't see the gauge making much difference if any.
The weight is supposed to be between 1.4 - 2gms. I have tried all in that range with no difference. One of my records played clean in the left chanel and crackly in the right. The turntable is level on a glass surface on top of the cassette player but this time I am not using the fabric Technics grey mat. Should I use that ? It needed a clean so for now it is drying.
Again, some records sound very good but most you can still hear the crackly sound that I find annoyig, others find endeering. Just not the night and day difference I was expecting.
I have got the AT440MLB installed, balanced and just waiting for the Technics gauge to arrive to get it exact although I have measured with a ruler to 52mm as stated as the ideal needle distance. In all honesty I am not blown away by the difference in sound. Some vinyl, especially electronic music sounds good (eg Kraftwek) but a lot of records, despite cleaning with carbon fibre brush still sound horribly crackily, even when they look clean. Granted some of my vinyl has surface mould growth of some kind so I won't play those but the good, clean vinyl I thought would sound clean. I was led to believe (from various reviews) that this cart goes deeper into the grove where it hasn't been played and the crackly noise goes. It may be too early to judge as I haven't got the gauge but as I have measured it myself pretty spot on I can't see the gauge making much difference if any.
The weight is supposed to be between 1.4 - 2gms. I have tried all in that range with no difference. One of my records played clean in the left chanel and crackly in the right. The turntable is level on a glass surface on top of the cassette player but this time I am not using the fabric Technics grey mat. Should I use that ? It needed a clean so for now it is drying.
Again, some records sound very good but most you can still hear the crackly sound that I find annoyig, others find endeering. Just not the night and day difference I was expecting.
There's no easy way around clean records that I know of. Sounds like your records need a deep clean (wet) and even then, depending on their age and condition, they may still crackle although hopefully only in the quiet sections. How to clean a record well is almost as emotive as whether cables make a difference so I won't recommend any particular way - the way I do it ruins them apparently!
The good news, though, is that your cartridge should improve as it breaks in over the next 10 hours or so.
The good news, though, is that your cartridge should improve as it breaks in over the next 10 hours or so.
marb67 said:
Tom has given some excellent pointers regarding your suface noise problems - dirty or worn records. A wet-clean will help dirty records, but not worn ones. If you expect CD-like reproduction then forget it, it's just not gonna happen, not with your current kit. You'll need to spend a lot more cashola to get anywhere near CD-like reproduction. Are you using the Technics rubber platter mat or a felt one? If using felt then change to the rubber mat.
Many on here have the Technics deck and I'm sure they'll be along soon with more advice.
Not really sure what you mean by cd quality as vinyl is superior in dynamic range unless you mean the actual cleaness of the recording with no scratches. I have the rubber mat on the turntable as well as the grey anti static Technics logo mate but I am currently not using that as I had to wash it it was so dirty. Having said that I have played around with some more albums and hearing some sound incredibly clean and others not so. It seems to be the queit parts in certain records that you can hear cracles despite the vinyl looking clean. For instance Laurie Anderson (Big Science) Peter Gabriel (album number 3) sound wonderful if lacking more bottom end. I can crank the bass on the Rotel but I don't think it makes too much difference.
The other option would be to buy new issues of old albums for the best of both worlds. I have the "Magical Mystery Tour" and it sounds very good. This could be the start of an expensive hobby because they are not cheap.
Can anyone reccomend the best weight setting for this turntable and cart ? The technics guage never arrived from Ebay so at the moment I have it set to approx 52mm which is the recommended distance.
The other option would be to buy new issues of old albums for the best of both worlds. I have the "Magical Mystery Tour" and it sounds very good. This could be the start of an expensive hobby because they are not cheap.
Can anyone reccomend the best weight setting for this turntable and cart ? The technics guage never arrived from Ebay so at the moment I have it set to approx 52mm which is the recommended distance.
I love records, but they don't have a superior dynamic range compared to CD.
Records can look clean but any small contamination in the groove will result in unwanted noise as will any damage and that's one of the main drawbacks.
In terms of tracking force, you need to get it accurate if you're going to get the best from your turntable regardless of cleanliness and I think that really needs a balance or scales.
Records are hard work, but don't give up, they can be hugely rewarding.
Records can look clean but any small contamination in the groove will result in unwanted noise as will any damage and that's one of the main drawbacks.
In terms of tracking force, you need to get it accurate if you're going to get the best from your turntable regardless of cleanliness and I think that really needs a balance or scales.
Records are hard work, but don't give up, they can be hugely rewarding.
BigH
Well-known member
Not sure of the problem maybe they are just dirty or could be damaged from a bad stylus. I have just been playing some of mine from the early 70s, on the new Rega Planar 3 with Elys2 MM cartridge, I was surprised how clean they sounded, some of these were, very well played, stylus never set up properly, these were bought when I was about 15/16, don't think they had all these gadgets 40 years ago. Never been cleaned, apart carbon fibre brush, but they were fine. Best to wait to measure it properly.
Cds have more dynamic range in theory, whether the mastering engineer uses it is a different matter but on the DR database I think you will find the highest DR are cds or digital downloads, the highest vinyl is about 17. Also vinyl does have other problems as well.
Cds have more dynamic range in theory, whether the mastering engineer uses it is a different matter but on the DR database I think you will find the highest DR are cds or digital downloads, the highest vinyl is about 17. Also vinyl does have other problems as well.
marb67 said:
No, the best pressed record in the world played with the world's best turntable rig would struggle to match even the dynamic range of a well-recorded cassette with Dolby, let alone that of a CD. What you may be getting confused with is CDs are often mastered louder than records with less dynamic range, but that's a mastering choice by the mastering engineer, not a limitation of CDs.
EDIT: Try playing this through good speakers or headphones, but note it possibly won't work from a tablet or a phone because of distribution restrictions on copyright music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3o-RfB5xUM&feature=youtu.be
The video gives an indication of the sound quality that can be achieved from a well-pressed record using my comparatively-modest turntable rig. I think what you have is a mixture of dirty or worn records coupled with an unrealistic expectation of what the medium can deliver with your current kit. I hope you find a happy compromise. There is a lot to love about vinyl if you can learn to live with the idiosyncracies.
BigH
Well-known member
I hope you have the turntable set up properly now, not balanced on some cassette deck?
Buying a proper wall shelf would be a good idea however they are not cheap. Or you can build your own, plyboard is probably the best choice, make sure its level. You could even do the Diament isolation solution: http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/vibration.htm
Buying a proper wall shelf would be a good idea however they are not cheap. Or you can build your own, plyboard is probably the best choice, make sure its level. You could even do the Diament isolation solution: http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/vibration.htm
It is still on the cassette deck but between them both is a solid, flat piece of glass which would count as a shelf until I get a permanent one made.
Now I am confused because if cd was the b all and end all of audio quality, why are there 100+ grand turntables, expensive cartridges etc if the end product is inferior quality ? Why not just invest in cd players ? I heard on a radio 3 prog that vinyl audio quality has never been bettered hence the revival of it selling like hot cakes, re-issues of old albums with superior mastering than the originals. If I remember rightly, dolby reduced noise but at the expense of loss of top end. Dolby c was better on my Fostex 4 track recorder but still not that great. And Mp3 files are no way as good as vinyl because they are compressed.
Now I am confused because if cd was the b all and end all of audio quality, why are there 100+ grand turntables, expensive cartridges etc if the end product is inferior quality ? Why not just invest in cd players ? I heard on a radio 3 prog that vinyl audio quality has never been bettered hence the revival of it selling like hot cakes, re-issues of old albums with superior mastering than the originals. If I remember rightly, dolby reduced noise but at the expense of loss of top end. Dolby c was better on my Fostex 4 track recorder but still not that great. And Mp3 files are no way as good as vinyl because they are compressed.
marb67 said:
You ask a fair question, but there's not a straightforward answer. The best turntables sound fabulous and many people find their sound preferrable to CD, but from a technical perspective they will always be inferior. CD potentially gives you a completely flat frequency response, 100dB dynamic range, and 100dB channel separation. The best turntables and records struggle to better 70dB on a very good day, the frequency response is not flat, and separation between the channels varies from cartridge to cartridge/deck to deck and is classed as excellent if it passes 30dB. To rub salt into the wound just a bit more, records often sound worse the closer the stylus gets to centre (the so-called inner grooves) because the linear velocity plummets.
You pay tens of thousands to buy turntables and cartridges which do their very best to minimize the effects of such technical compromises, because state of the art engineering doesn't come cheap, and with analogue equipment, it's all about the engineering.
Did you ever listen to my video?
marb67 said:
There is a lot of hype around the vinyl revival. The Sunday Times Magazine had a review of a Clearaudio TT in the magazine last week and said something along the lines of there is more information contained in the grooves of an LP. Just not true.
However, vinyl can sound lovely but, in my view, you have to have some connection to it to put up with its foibles. I grew up with it so I can put on an album and remember exactly where I bought it and in lots of cases can remember going into the shop for a couple of weeks to look at it while my money accrued to the heady £4.50 or whatever to buy it.
Regarding mastering, remastering isn't always better.
I did listen to your video and gave it a like thanks for the link. It sounded excellent , a very nice turntable that looks nice too with the wood finish. I would say that I am happy with my Technics, JPW AP2 set up as sonicly to my ears it sounds as good as the link you posted which pleases me. Like suggested earlier, my reord collection quality varies because of dust etc but I can live with that. Unfortunatley quite a few have also got those fungus growths on the vinyl as well as the few unprotected sleeves. I will just have to invest in a cleaner (not the £400 type though) or start using wood glue which seems very effective. I just purchased a Neu Krautrock newly pressed re-issue and I must sayit sounds excellent but even brand new ot of the sleeve I still hear he odd bit of noise here and there but that will be static.
I have also looked at a few Youtube debates on CD v VInyl and it does seem that the jury is out a lot of the time with the preference with the listener's personal taste. I like to have the best of both worlds. I will also say that my Marantz CD42 still sounds excellent but has CD technology come on so much since I got it in 1991 that it would be worth upragding ?
I have also looked at a few Youtube debates on CD v VInyl and it does seem that the jury is out a lot of the time with the preference with the listener's personal taste. I like to have the best of both worlds. I will also say that my Marantz CD42 still sounds excellent but has CD technology come on so much since I got it in 1991 that it would be worth upragding ?
In my opinion, and I tread carefully here, the quality of the original recording, mixing and mastering makes a bigger difference than the format. I get a certain pleasure from records that I don't get from CDs but it's a mixture of nostalgia and the physicality of the format (Iron Maiden sleeve art was made for a 12" square not 5").
Regarding your records with fungus, I wouldn't resort to wood glue. I've tried it and it takes a bit of practice to get it right and in the meantime you can wreck your records - I used expendable ones. Again I tread carefully because the use of alcohol on vinyl seems to divide opinion, but a mixture of distilled water and isopropyl alcohol (50/50 for that first fungal removal clean) with something like a Mobile Fidelity "brush" which is like a velvet pad to rub it into the grooves, rinsed with the distilled water and air dried is quicker and safer.
Regarding your records with fungus, I wouldn't resort to wood glue. I've tried it and it takes a bit of practice to get it right and in the meantime you can wreck your records - I used expendable ones. Again I tread carefully because the use of alcohol on vinyl seems to divide opinion, but a mixture of distilled water and isopropyl alcohol (50/50 for that first fungal removal clean) with something like a Mobile Fidelity "brush" which is like a velvet pad to rub it into the grooves, rinsed with the distilled water and air dried is quicker and safer.
Thanks. I have a dehumidifier I can get distilled from and perhaps apple cider vinegar will remove the fngus as it's got amazing cleaning properties. The cleaning pad you mention, I have an old, red velvet block record cleaner which I have already used with that blusih record cleaner fluid withhe cloth inside the cap you can buy.
I also been looking at getting a Knosti Disco Cleaner on Amazon as a lot of vinyl folk rate it. There now seems to be a mark 2 version with improved liquid.
I also been looking at getting a Knosti Disco Cleaner on Amazon as a lot of vinyl folk rate it. There now seems to be a mark 2 version with improved liquid.
BigH
Well-known member
marb67 said:
If you use vinegar I would get the white (clear) distilled vinegar and dilute it with distilled water. Believe cider vinegar contains sugar.
marb67 said:
The Knosti Gen 2 is a good product and works rather well. I had quite a few new pressings and they sounded horrid, full pops and clicks, ran them through the Knosti and voila most of them gone. I've had better results using the home-brew cleaning solution recommended by many on here, and other sites: 400ml distilled water, 100ml IPA, 2.5ml Ilfotol. It's a laboriuos process, I cleaned 30 albums a few weeks ago and it took me nearly 6 hours! It's the drying time that takes so long but the results are worth it. Don't forget to purchase some new poly-lined sleeves for your cleaned LP's.
Conversley I've also recently bought some 30+ year old sealed pressings and they were brilliant straight out of the sleeve, hardly a pop or click to mention.... go figure *smile*
Regarding my previous comments about playback quality with vinyl, you are never going to get that black silence between tracks on vinyl that you do with CD, vinyl is a physical contact medium so you'll always get a certain amount of needle-talk between tracks.
It wasn't until I upgraded from a Technics clone (Pioneer PLX1000) to my current Marantz that I began to fully appreciate just what vinyl offered. Maybe that or I should have bought the Knosti before upgrading my turntable *biggrin*.
BigH
Well-known member
marb67 said:
Just because something costs a lot of mney does not mean its good. Products that are produced in small numbers will always cost more than products that are produced in large quantities, its economies of scale. Also a lot of the items they use will be bespoke, ie made to order, one off, not bought off the shelf, for that you will pay a high premium. Even off the shelf items its best to order in bulk, say 250 units +, it saves a lot of money. I think of lot of the high end stuff is marketed at millionaire audiophiles, who want something unique and for show. Not saying they are no good but think a lot of cheaper turntables would sound as good. I saw a video the other day, high end turntable, the guy demonstrating it in the USA, said it was the best he ever heard, the platter was about 1 foot high, polished metal but it was off centre, that would have driven me nuts, if I had spent a lot of money and ever time it goes round you can see its not right, even on a cheap turntable I don't want to see that.
As for vinyl, actually you should read how they engineer a vinyl record, what they have to do to fit the music on the record, really lps should be about 10 mins max. per side and play at 45rpm, there was a article by an engineer Noel Summerville I will try and find it. Some of them are now, London Grammar have a double 45rpm album out. So saying all the music is on vinyl is not true. Vinyl is trendy at the moment, how long that will last I don't know, I hope not long then I can start buying cheaper vinyl again, in fact there will be loads, many not even played it seems.
Here it is: http://www.thevinylfactory.com/vinyl-factory-releases/how-to-master-a-record-noel-summerville-vinyl-dubplates-the-clash/
Interesting points made but again it is all subjective. It's like no digital synth will be as warm, rich as a Moog. Analogue in electronic music will always blow away digital. That is how I thought regarding vinyl v digital in music.
Some of the vinyl from around the very early 70's sounds like an egg and bacon fry up due to poorer quality vinyl because of the Heath energy crisis. I am sure things are a lot better now.
This is an interesting article that states vynyl is better than digital:
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/reasons-why-vinyl-better-digital/
Some of the vinyl from around the very early 70's sounds like an egg and bacon fry up due to poorer quality vinyl because of the Heath energy crisis. I am sure things are a lot better now.
This is an interesting article that states vynyl is better than digital:
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/reasons-why-vinyl-better-digital/
marb67 said:
That article proves nothing as it is comparing mp3 to lossless. If you have a decent system then lossless will always win in this shoot-out, regardless of format. I have some LP's from the 70's that sound heavenly when compared to recent releases, I also have some that sound dire. Are you sure your older vinyl isn't just worn out as this will create a lot of surface noise that no amount of cleaning or cartridge set-up will cure.
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