• If you ever spot Spam (either in the forums, or received via forum direct message) please use the Report button at the bottom of each post to make sure a Moderator can handle it quickly. Thanks for your help in keeping things running smoothly!

Audio amplifier vs Av amplifier

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the What HiFi community: the world's leading independent guide to buying and owning hi-fi and home entertainment products.

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
16
2
0
Vladimir said:
I have yet to see someone who watches Tarkovsky and Bergman kind of films to invest in high priced HT setup. It's always fans of Batman, CIA and such. So the argument how these people are film art afficionados doesn't fly with me.

Do I need my anus vibrated at 18Hz to enjoy Daren Aronofsky's "Pi" as a movie or as a Clint Mansel OST?

Do I need 80" screen to watch The Big Bang Theory.

Why do you need high quality hi-fi to listen to rock, metal, grunge, rap? Isn't the whole point of it to sound shitty, loud and rebelious?
I do.

We watch all sorts of films and TV series via our Lovefilm subscription.

We've got Dr Strange and Colditz (1970's TV series (we're staying in Colditz Castle in June)) at the moment. Previous films were Moana and Weiner.

I found Tarkovsky's Stalker weird, boring, poorly edited and overlong. I enjoyed Zvyagintsev's Leviathan.

My 5.0.2 system consists of a Denon Blu-ray player, Freesat box, Marantz 6010 receiver, 2 x EV Sentry III's, 1 x Linn Isobarik, 2 x Linn Saras, 2 x Heybrook HB1's, Epson projector, can't remember the size of the screen - it might be 140 inches (it's big).

Previously I used a Creek 4040 into the Sentries in a 2.0 system.

I really enjoy watching Match of the Day in HD on the Projector. Wouldn't want to ever go back to using a smaller screen. Same thing applies to films. And (Clarkson era) Top Gear type programmes with beautiful scenic photography.

When I bought the Marantz receiver and incorporated all the extra speakers my children declared that it was a "waste of money". That's a valid point of view, especially when £480 buys a lot of sweets or computer games. Going from 2.0 to 5.0.2 does not make the plot or story-line any better. What you do get is clearer dialogue - mainly due to blu rays and DVD's not being generally well mixed for 2.0, plus you get a few gimmicky surround sound effects during films that have been recorded that way.

It's the sort of thing that now I've done it I'm not going to undo it. And the cost of c£500 spread over 10 years use is not that bad.

When playing CD's through the Marantz receiver, I do think that it's the worst sounding amp for music I've ever bought. Even worse than the Creek. The Marantz sounds class D'ish to me - especially when cold. But, having said that, I'd still take the Marantz with Sentries over well regarded £2000 modern active hamster coffins for sound quality.

I would have preferred to have bought an Atmos pre-amp as I have or know how to get decent solid state power amps for not much money. But, for some crazy reason, Atmos pre-amps are a lot more expensive than Atmos receivers and the technology was too new for Atmos pre-amps to be available at attractive 2nd hand prices.

Overall, my view is that if you want to get into AV in a big way then go for it. If you can't be bothered, that's fine too - keep your money in the bank.

Also, the last few times we've been to the cinema (courtesy of complimentary tickets from my work) I've thought that the multiplex has had a genuinely good sound system. And at home, my system seems to have good attack, bite, clarity, sub-sonic rumble - but I've never compared it directly to another AV system, and probably never will due to the pfaff involved in such a bake-off.
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
308
85
10,970
lindsayt said:
Vladimir said:
I have yet to see someone who watches Tarkovsky and Bergman kind of films to invest in high priced HT setup. It's always fans of Batman, CIA and such. So the argument how these people are film art afficionados doesn't fly with me.

Do I need my anus vibrated at 18Hz to enjoy Daren Aronofsky's "Pi" as a movie or as a Clint Mansel OST?

Do I need 80" screen to watch The Big Bang Theory.

Why do you need high quality hi-fi to listen to rock, metal, grunge, rap? Isn't the whole point of it to sound shitty, loud and rebelious?
I do.

We watch all sorts of films and TV series via our Lovefilm subscription.

We've got Dr Strange and Colditz (1970's TV series (we're staying in Colditz Castle in June)) at the moment. Previous films were Moana and Weiner.

I found Tarkovsky's Stalker weird, boring, poorly edited and overlong. I enjoyed Zvyagintsev's Leviathan.

My 5.0.2 system consists of a Denon Blu-ray player, Freesat box, Marantz 6010 receiver, 2 x EV Sentry III's, 1 x Linn Isobarik, 2 x Linn Saras, 2 x Heybrook HB1's, Epson projector, can't remember the size of the screen - it might be 140 inches (it's big).

Previously I used a Creek 4040 into the Sentries in a 2.0 system.

I really enjoy watching Match of the Day in HD on the Projector. Wouldn't want to ever go back to using a smaller screen. Same thing applies to films. And (Clarkson era) Top Gear type programmes with beautiful scenic photography.

When I bought the Marantz receiver and incorporated all the extra speakers my children declared that it was a "waste of money". That's a valid point of view, especially when £480 buys a lot of sweets or computer games. Going from 2.0 to 5.0.2 does not make the plot or story-line any better. What you do get is clearer dialogue - mainly due to blu rays and DVD's not being generally well mixed for 2.0, plus you get a few gimmicky surround sound effects during films that have been recorded that way.

It's the sort of thing that now I've done it I'm not going to undo it. And the cost of c£500 spread over 10 years use is not that bad.

When playing CD's through the Marantz receiver, I do think that it's the worst sounding amp for music I've ever bought. Even worse than the Creek. The Marantz sounds class D'ish to me - especially when cold. But, having said that, I'd still take the Marantz with Sentries over well regarded £2000 modern active hamster coffins for sound quality.

I would have preferred to have bought an Atmos pre-amp as I have or know how to get decent solid state power amps for not much money. But, for some crazy reason, Atmos pre-amps are a lot more expensive than Atmos receivers and the technology was too new for Atmos pre-amps to be available at attractive 2nd hand prices.

Overall, my view is that if you want to get into AV in a big way then go for it. If you can't be bothered, that's fine too - keep your money in the bank.

Also, the last few times we've been to the cinema (courtesy of complimentary tickets from my work) I've thought that the multiplex has had a genuinely good sound system. And at home, my system seems to have good attack, bite, clarity, sub-sonic rumble - but I've never compared it directly to another AV system, and probably never will due to the pfaff involved in such a bake-off.
at the moment I am doing this for my little girl so she can experience watching her films like the pictures as she is special needs as she can only watch stuff for a short amount of time so the fact that if we went to the pictures it's far to loud for her and she would only sit there for 20min at a time so would be a complete wast of money going .

at least this way I can control the volume and when to turn it off .
 

abacus

Well-known member
Sep 24, 2008
506
221
19,270
Blacksabbath25 said:
Vladimir said:
Blacksabbath25 said:
Vladimir said:
Blacksabbath25 said:
This is the video which put me off https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qeAqtvP-Iwc
That applies for all AVRs with shared PSU for 5+ channels.

If you have ambitions and expectations, then you stack power amps and controll them with a surround processor pre amp.
which if you go that route processor + Pre - amplifier so does the price which then your knocking on the door of the Yamaha Av 3060 £2000 *wacko*
Behringer A500 (£155) x 5 = £755

Emotiva XMC-1 = £1,300

TOTAL = £2,055

Yamaha AV 3060 has a smaller PSU than one of those 5 Behringers.
I liked the look of the pre from Emotiva I had a look around but could not find anywhere in the U.K. Where they sell theses as I think they are made in the United States but know they have a accurate room correction software more accurate then what Yamaha uses .

in regards of the behringer I am not sure what that is but my guess is that's a power amplifier but when I googled it came up with something that's used in musical instruments .
The Behringer’s mentioned are just power amps, however they are designed for pro use, which is way more demanding then Hi-Fi/AV used in a domestic environment, hence they offer much better value and performance then most H-Fi power amps. (They work on the principle of a straight wire with gain, whereas a lot of H-Fi manufactures colour the sound of their equipment to get a unique house sound)

Hope this helps

Bill
 

abacus

Well-known member
Sep 24, 2008
506
221
19,270
Blacksabbath25 said:
This is the video which put me off https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qeAqtvP-Iwc
Music is not a continues volume, it is constantly varying, and for the most part only requires a few watts of power, (Its only sound peaks that require full power) so it is not as bad in real life as the impression you seem to have got from the video, (They did a video explaining this so might be worth checking it out) which if you watch the video all the way through, they give it a good value for what it offers.

If you are using your stereo amp for your front speakers, then (Assuming you are using 5.1) the receiver only has to power 3 channels at once, (The sub will have its own power amp) which will not tax the power supply as much anyway.

As mentioned, if you go for something like Arcam or Anthem then you will get the full power and will be able to drive even difficult speakers. (The cost jumps up though)

Hope this helps

Bill
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
308
85
10,970
abacus said:
Blacksabbath25 said:
This is the video which put me off https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qeAqtvP-Iwc
Music is not a continues volume, it is constantly varying, and for the most part only requires a few watts of power, (Its only sound peaks that require full power) so it is not as bad in real life as the impression you seem to have got from the video, (They did a video explaining this so might be worth checking it out) which if you watch the video all the way through, they give it a good value for what it offers.

If you are using your stereo amp for your front speakers, then (Assuming you are using 5.1) the receiver only has to power 3 channels at once, (The sub will have its own power amp) which will not tax the power supply as much anyway.

As mentioned, if you go for something like Arcam or Anthem then you will get the full power and will be able to drive even difficult speakers. (The cost jumps up though)

Hope this helps

Bill
to be honest I did not want to go that silly with the idea on getting a Av amplifier

i understand I would have to match the center channel with the same type of speaker as my Dali's L+R which the Dali LCRs was what I was thinking of as I can not mount the larger center speaker that Dali makes for my speakers but the LCRs are from the opticon range so should be ok there .

for a start I was just going to buy the Av amplifier and 1 Dali LCR for the center and then add the rest when I can afford it .

Apart from the above things mentioned above what would be a good Av amplifier to go for that has the pre-outs at the back and give me room for the future to add stuff later as I do not want to be restricted so old Av are out because I may want to add more speakers in the future so for now I will limit it to 5.1 but in the future I may go 7.1
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
1
0
Your bigger decision imo is how current do you want the avr in compatibility terms.

Do you have 4k HDR display? Are you planning on getting one - if you do then will you want it all to go through the receiver or are you happy to have a dual feed setup to the display - i.e will need to change TV inputs for different sources

Then do you want atmos in the future - if so how many channels are you going to want to add - then think amplification of those

They are the main decisions to make I think before looking at any products,
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
308
85
10,970
ellisdj said:
Your bigger decision imo is how current do you want the avr in compatibility terms.

Do you have 4k HDR display? Are you planning on getting one - if you do then will you want it all to go through the receiver or are you happy to have a dual feed setup to the display - i.e will need to change TV inputs for different sources

Then do you want atmos in the future - if so how many channels are you going to want to add - then think amplification of those

They are the main decisions to make I think before looking at any products,
at present I have an old 10 year old Led tv 42'' which I will be changing at some point in time so yes it will be eventually a 4K tv but for now the old tv is ok .

i am not sure about atoms as I do not understand what that is about but when I had a home cinema about 10 years ago I had a 7. 1, speaker setup which was called Ex which back then it was a extra set of speakers at the back not sure if that's still about but not interested in putting speakers in the ceiling which I think that's the atmos .
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
16
2
0
Atmos is about having a 3D soundstage by having 2 or more speakers high up / in the ceiling (IMO proper way of doing it) or pointed towards the ceiling (IMO poor way to do it).

In the film Revenant, there's a scene where someone walks upstairs in a log cabin where it sounds like the person is above you in an Atmos system. All a bit gimmicky. OK for the film experience but doesn't help move the plot or storyline along at all. Also nice for the birds singing in the trees sound effects in this film.

It's the sort of feature that's nice if you've got it, but no big deal if you haven't.

It depends how completist you want to be when watching the latest Hollywood blu rays in terms of recreating what's on the soundtrack.

The main thing for me when watching films is to have a good clear big picture, for the dialogue to be relatively easy to follow and for transients such as gun-shots to be well recreated for the sonic drama.

For a film like Step Up, especially the final dance sequence, an AV system that can play music well will enhance the enjoyment when watching the film.

When Mark Kermode reviewed 8 Days a Week he recommended seeing it at the Cinema, to do justice to this Beatles documentary soundtrack. I disagree. With a decent AV system it'll sound fine at home. His advice applies if you'd be watching it with your TV's built-in speakers or some crumby soundbar.
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
308
85
10,970
lindsayt said:
Atmos is about having a 3D soundstage by having 2 or more speakers high up / in the ceiling (IMO proper way of doing it) or pointed towards the ceiling (IMO poor way to do it).

In the film Revenant, there's a scene where someone walks upstairs in a log cabin where it sounds like the person is above you in an Atmos system. All a bit gimmicky. OK for the film experience but doesn't help move the plot or storyline along at all. Also nice for the birds singing in the trees sound effects in this film.

It's the sort of feature that's nice if you've got it, but no big deal if you haven't.

It depends how completist you want to be when watching the latest Hollywood blu rays in terms of recreating what's on the soundtrack.

The main thing for me when watching films is to have a good clear big picture, for the dialogue to be relatively easy to follow and for transients such as gun-shots to be well recreated for the sonic drama.

For a film like Step Up, especially the final dance sequence, an AV system that can play music well will enhance the enjoyment when watching the film.

When Mark Kermode reviewed 8 Days a Week he recommended seeing it at the Cinema, to do justice to this Beatles documentary soundtrack. I disagree. With a decent AV system it'll sound fine at home. His advice applies if you'd be watching it with your TV's built-in speakers or some crumby soundbar.
I do not want to go soundbar way like I've said in other posts in this thread I've had a home cinema 10 years ago which is a long time when technology keeps moving on but I've had a 7.1 home cinema before with a Arcam Av88 processor and p7 ... 7 channel power amp which back then was one of the first THX home cinema on the market but it did EX which I liked but it was silly money back then .

so I want something like that but without spending loads of £££££ but still get a good experience
 

jonathanRD

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2011
177
50
18,670
I have both a stereo system and AV system sharing the same room. It was not planned this way, just put together based on my budget at the time - the cheapest way to do this was to keep them seperate. Now that I have a 'keeper' stereo amp, that has AV bypass, this will allow me build on this and work towards removing at least one set of speakers, but I need an AV amp with pre-outs. I have considered picking up a 2nd hand av amp. My Onkyo av amp was purchased in 2012, and these days I only use it for watching movies and tv., so I don't need many of its features. I use a tablet to stream via a Sonos Connect into the dac in my pre-amp, or from my CDP.

So my advice would be to pick up a 2nd hand av amp mainly for its pre-outs, and then concentrate your budget on getting the right centre and surround speakers (keepers). I'm sure there are plenty of good 2nd hand av amps at or below £500 that will be more than enough to meet your requirements.
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
16
2
0
If all my AV gear got stolen tomorrow, I'd probably replace it with something like this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Denon-AVRX2300-Network-AV-Receiver-AVRX2300W-Black-Dolby-Atmos-What-Hifi-Award-/142206439723?hash=item211c2a112b:g:2e0AAOSwEzxYSrOk

plus a projector, a collection of used speakers, a freesat box and a pre-owned blu ray player. With a good pair of large speakers I'd expect to get pretty good sound from CD's too via the Denon (from a £20 used CD player).
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
308
85
10,970
lindsayt said:
If all my AV gear got stolen tomorrow, I'd probably replace it with something like this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Denon-AVRX2300-Network-AV-Receiver-AVRX2300W-B...

plus a projector, a collection of used speakers, a freesat box and a pre-owned blu ray player. With a good pair of large speakers I'd expect to get pretty good sound from CD's too via the Denon (from a £20 used CD player).
I think secondhand is the way to go or open box but basically I am after a Yamaha Av amplifier probably the model before the current models out now .

but basically I've been looking at the current models like the RX-A860 or RX-A1060 but price puts me off so I am hoping to find the models before theses current ones but at a cheaper price .

and they should be capable of a 4ohm load for the Dali center speaker I would get and the pre-out section I need .
 

Andrewjvt

New member
Jun 18, 2014
99
1
0
Blacksabbath25 said:
lindsayt said:
If all my AV gear got stolen tomorrow, I'd probably replace it with something like this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Denon-AVRX2300-Network-AV-Receiver-AVRX2300W-B...

plus a projector, a collection of used speakers, a freesat box and a pre-owned blu ray player. With a good pair of large speakers I'd expect to get pretty good sound from CD's too via the Denon (from a £20 used CD player).
I think secondhand is the way to go or open box but basically I am after a Yamaha Av amplifier probably the model before the current models out now .

but basically I've been looking at the current models like the RX-A860 or RX-A1060 but price puts me off so I am hoping to find the models before theses current ones but at a cheaper price .

and they should be capable of a 4ohm load for the Dali center speaker I would get and the pre-out section I need .

 
Thats how i got the top model.yamaha 3050 for so cheap

If the yamaha 1060 series is the one you want then wait a few months until next years model.comes out and then peter tyson offer mad discounts on the older model
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
308
85
10,970
Andrewjvt said:
Blacksabbath25 said:
lindsayt said:
If all my AV gear got stolen tomorrow, I'd probably replace it with something like this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Denon-AVRX2300-Network-AV-Receiver-AVRX2300W-B...

plus a projector, a collection of used speakers, a freesat box and a pre-owned blu ray player. With a good pair of large speakers I'd expect to get pretty good sound from CD's too via the Denon (from a £20 used CD player).
I think secondhand is the way to go or open box but basically I am after a Yamaha Av amplifier probably the model before the current models out now .

but basically I've been looking at the current models like the RX-A860 or RX-A1060 but price puts me off so I am hoping to find the models before theses current ones but at a cheaper price .

and they should be capable of a 4ohm load for the Dali center speaker I would get and the pre-out section I need .
Thats how i got the top model.yamaha 3050 for so cheap

If the yamaha 1060 series is the one you want then wait a few months until next years model.comes out and then peter tyson offer mad discounts on the older model
yep I think your right Andrew

i keep looking on eBay but nothing on there then I looked around the cheapest I've seen the 1060 for is £999 brand new not even richer sounds has one local to me as a open box or refurbished one .

i think the RX-A1060 is a current model which I think came out in 2016
 

Andrewjvt

New member
Jun 18, 2014
99
1
0
Blacksabbath25 said:
Andrewjvt said:
Blacksabbath25 said:
lindsayt said:
If all my AV gear got stolen tomorrow, I'd probably replace it with something like this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Denon-AVRX2300-Network-AV-Receiver-AVRX2300W-B...

plus a projector, a collection of used speakers, a freesat box and a pre-owned blu ray player. With a good pair of large speakers I'd expect to get pretty good sound from CD's too via the Denon (from a £20 used CD player).
I think secondhand is the way to go or open box but basically I am after a Yamaha Av amplifier probably the model before the current models out now .

but basically I've been looking at the current models like the RX-A860 or RX-A1060 but price puts me off so I am hoping to find the models before theses current ones but at a cheaper price .

and they should be capable of a 4ohm load for the Dali center speaker I would get and the pre-out section I need .

 
Thats how i got the top model.yamaha 3050 for so cheap

If the yamaha 1060 series is the one you want then wait a few months until next years model.comes out and then peter tyson offer mad discounts on the older model
yep I think your right Andrew 

i keep looking on eBay but nothing on there then I looked around the cheapest  I've seen the 1060 for is £999 brand new not even richer sounds has one local to me as a open box or refurbished one  .

i think the RX-A1060 is a current model which I think came out in 2016 
Few more months till latest comes out.

Peter tyson give 5 year warranty also
 

Vladimir

New member
Dec 26, 2013
220
4
0
Blacksabbath25 said:
Andrewjvt said:
Blacksabbath25 said:
lindsayt said:
If all my AV gear got stolen tomorrow, I'd probably replace it with something like this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Denon-AVRX2300-Network-AV-Receiver-AVRX2300W-B...

plus a projector, a collection of used speakers, a freesat box and a pre-owned blu ray player. With a good pair of large speakers I'd expect to get pretty good sound from CD's too via the Denon (from a £20 used CD player).
I think secondhand is the way to go or open box but basically I am after a Yamaha Av amplifier probably the model before the current models out now .

but basically I've been looking at the current models like the RX-A860 or RX-A1060 but price puts me off so I am hoping to find the models before theses current ones but at a cheaper price .

and they should be capable of a 4ohm load for the Dali center speaker I would get and the pre-out section I need .
Thats how i got the top model.yamaha 3050 for so cheap

If the yamaha 1060 series is the one you want then wait a few months until next years model.comes out and then peter tyson offer mad discounts on the older model
yep I think your right Andrew

i keep looking on eBay but nothing on there then I looked around the cheapest I've seen the 1060 for is £999 brand new not even richer sounds has one local to me as a open box or refurbished one .

i think the RX-A1060 is a current model which I think came out in 2016
Is this a good price? link

EDIT: not really a bargain, just saw they go for 1100 in shops.
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
308
85
10,970
Vladimir said:
Blacksabbath25 said:
Andrewjvt said:
Blacksabbath25 said:
lindsayt said:
If all my AV gear got stolen tomorrow, I'd probably replace it with something like this:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Denon-AVRX2300-Network-AV-Receiver-AVRX2300W-B...

plus a projector, a collection of used speakers, a freesat box and a pre-owned blu ray player. With a good pair of large speakers I'd expect to get pretty good sound from CD's too via the Denon (from a £20 used CD player).
I think secondhand is the way to go or open box but basically I am after a Yamaha Av amplifier probably the model before the current models out now .

but basically I've been looking at the current models like the RX-A860 or RX-A1060 but price puts me off so I am hoping to find the models before theses current ones but at a cheaper price .

and they should be capable of a 4ohm load for the Dali center speaker I would get and the pre-out section I need .
Thats how i got the top model.yamaha 3050 for so cheap

If the yamaha 1060 series is the one you want then wait a few months until next years model.comes out and then peter tyson offer mad discounts on the older model
yep I think your right Andrew

i keep looking on eBay but nothing on there then I looked around the cheapest I've seen the 1060 for is £999 brand new not even richer sounds has one local to me as a open box or refurbished one .

i think the RX-A1060 is a current model which I think came out in 2016
Is this a good price? link

EDIT: not really a bargain, just saw they go for 1100 in shops.
well done that's £50 less but like Andrew is saying wait till the new models come out then the price should drop
 

JamesMellor

New member
Jul 19, 2013
40
0
0
Or go reto BS,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pioneer-VSA-E07-Digital-Integrated-Gold-Amplifier-/391754451994?_trksid=p2349526.m2548.l4275

I have one of these when I took it in for repair a couple of years ago the kid nearly fell over when he picked it up off the counter <S>. That drop down front panel is a perfectly weighted piece, just touch it and it slowly swings down. I've seen them go for 60 quid recently. And its a real THX amp.

James
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
308
85
10,970
JamesMellor said:
Or go reto BS,

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pioneer-VSA-E07-Digital-Integrated-Gold-Amplif...

I have one of these when I took it in for repair a couple of years ago the kid nearly fell over when he picked it up off the counter <S>. That drop down front panel is a perfectly weighted piece, just touch it and it slowly swings down. I've seen them go for 60 quid recently. And its a real THX amp.

James
or if money is no object..... https://uk.yamaha.com/en/products/audio_visual/av_receivers_amps/cx-a5100_g/index.html
 

Blacksabbath25

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2015
308
85
10,970
Vladimir said:
This is the way to go.
no disrespect to PP but they look like something that's come of a computer server the Yamaha has more style and like I've always said with the right speakers the Yamaha would of been loads better then the leema easily at least I can see where my money went .
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY

TRENDING THREADS