Audibly transparent

[the record spot]

]Why do you keep name dropping? Ash, Barry Diament, Steve Hoffman, or whoever? Can you not just debate like everyone else without trying to make yourself sound important?

And can you please stop the anti HDD aggression? It's uncalled for and dare I say it, even the regulars here are sick and tired of it,

If you'll do likewise with your nonsense, we can put this to rest. Your choice.

You said I'd been banned from the AVI forum. I wasn't; I asked the moderator there, Ashley James, to delete my account. Should I make another name up? What would you like me to use?

I mention Barry Diament, Steve Hoffman, Joe Gastwirt, Vic Anesini, Bernie Grundman and a bunch of others because they're masters of the mastering engineer's craft (IMO).

I've yet to hear a duffer from Barry Diament and I've got a stack of albums with his name on them. He was at Atlantic in the 80s and I just happen to like a bunch of acts who were on the label then - Zep, Genesis (Atlantic was their US label), Yes...take yer pick.

Mastering comes up regularly for good reason, and if you want to ignore it that's your problem. The Steve Hoffman forum is a great resource for finding good recordings and general information on the subject. Maybe if you spent some time reading up on the subject, you might get something out of it, to anyone, I mention the names I listed because they might want to try the discs out for themselves. It's all on the Hoffman forum.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

You are off your rocker, Spot. You can't string more than two posts together without mentioning the AVI Forum, you got banned, get over it!!

And please, stop talking absolute nonsense about your speakers, did you not make a big enough fool of yourself the last time you declared that they have "deep bass"? They're tiny speakers with 4inch drivers, do you not realise that they simply cannot reproduce deep bass?

Hey mate! Take it easy. No need to attack someone for stating his views, certainly more politely than you do. I was one who said small drivers can't do deep bass, but Record Spot explained his position well , did anything but make a fool of himself - and can you tell the difference between 50hz and 55 hz, for example? Fair goes, mate.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Ferrari fanboys

If the Ferrari was technically the better car, I'd choose the McLaren. I hate Ferrari with as much passion as the Tifosi love Ferrari.

So in answer to your question, preference and prejudice.

But why? Were you bitten by a horse when a child?

Chris[/quote]

It's Man U syndrome. People who follow the herd because it is seen as "cool" to do so.Thatt is something I dislike. Therefore, I hate Ferrari and Man U. To state two examples.

 

[Frank Harvey]

There's a lot of talk about "boom" and "tizz" in some quarters. I think that's vastly overrated in real terms.

There's far more "vastly overrated" terms where that one came from.

Perhaps people would like to read your forum David?

http://www.hifix.co.uk/hifi/forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1718

Lot's of vastly overrated stuff on there. And lot's of slagging.

Thanks for the plug Max

Its not a forum that is trying to take over the world or pretend to be something it is not. It's just a forum where people can talk. And we are a bit more free to say what we like.

 

[Anonymous]

]Why do you keep name dropping? Ash, Barry Diament, Steve Hoffman, or whoever? Can you not just debate like everyone else without trying to make yourself sound important?

And can you please stop the anti HDD aggression? It's uncalled for and dare I say it, even the regulars here are sick and tired of it,

If you'll do likewise with your nonsense, we can put this to rest. Your choice.

You said I'd been banned from the AVI forum. I wasn't; I asked the moderator there, Ashley James, to delete my account. Should I make another name up? What would you like me to use?

I mention Barry Diament, Steve Hoffman, Joe Gastwirt, Vic Anesini, Bernie Grundman and a bunch of others because they're masters of the maerting engineer craft. I've yet to hear a duffer from Barry Diament and I've got a stack of albums with his name on them. He was at Atlantic in the 80s and I just happen to like a bunch of acts who were on the label then - Zep, Genesis (Atlantic was their US label), Yes...take yer pick.

Mastering comes up regularly for good reason, and if you want to ignore it that's your problem. The Steve Hoffman forum is a great resource for finding good recordings and general information on the subject. Maybe if you spent some time reading up on the subject, you might get something out of it, to anyone, I mention the names I listed because they might want to try the discs out for themselves. It's all on the Hoffman forum.

Fair enough, and I'm sorry if I've offended you. I'll stay away from here and stop the nonsense, and you stop all the snide remarks aimed at ADM owners who recommend their speakers, just like everybody else on here does.

Deal?

 

[the record spot]

Hey mate! Take it easy. No need to attack someone for stating his views, certainly more politely than you do. I was one who said small drivers can't do deep bass, but Record Spot explained his position well , did anything but make a fool of himself - and can you tell the difference between 50hz and 55 hz, for example? Fair goes, mate.

Cheers AL. Much appreciated. :cheers:

 

[the record spot]

Fair enough, and I'm sorry if I've offended you. I'll stay away from here and stop the nonsense, and you stop all the snide remarks aimed at ADM owners who recommend their speakers, just like everybody else on here does.

Deal?

Get it right Max; what I get narked at is the "there's only one way" approach and anything else is crap. There should be a happy co-existance, but you need to review what's been posted on your other forum home over the years. And you included. The speakers are good products and you can search my posts where I've recommended them. It's the additional sauce that's served up with them from some that sours the taste.

Apology accepted, likewise in return. Your choice if you want to leave, or stay, but sticking with the one forum name might be a benefit.... just sayin'

 

[Anonymous]

You are off your rocker, Spot. You can't string more than two posts together without mentioning the AVI Forum, you got banned, get over it!!

And please, stop talking absolute nonsense about your speakers, did you not make a big enough fool of yourself the last time you declared that they have "deep bass"? They're tiny speakers with 4inch drivers, do you not realise that they simply cannot reproduce deep bass?

Hey mate! Take it easy. No need to attack someone for stating his views, certainly more politely than you do. I was one who said small drivers can't do deep bass, but Record Spot explained his position well , did anything but make a fool of himself - and can you tell the difference between 50hz and 55 hz, for example? Fair goes, mate.

Fair enough Al, all I would like to see on here is fairness, there's no conspiricy theory, ADM owners recommend their speakers just as you do yours and everybody else theirs, and if the RS can stop suggesting that they do so as part of some cleverly contrived viral marketing campaign, then I'll be happy :cheers:

 

[the record spot]

...and if the RS can stop suggesting that they do so as part of some cleverly contrived viral marketing campaign, then I'll be happy :cheers:

I don't.

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi Max :wave:

Just for the record, as I know how much you value the truth........I don't work in the "Foo Trade" and never have.

As for brainwashing........my NLP course is obviously paying dividends!

 

[Covenanter]

Ferrari fanboys

If the Ferrari was technically the better car, I'd choose the McLaren. I hate Ferrari with as much passion as the Tifosi love Ferrari.

So in answer to your question, preference and prejudice.

But why? Were you bitten by a horse when a child?

Chris

It's Man U syndrome. People who follow the herd because it is seen as "cool" to do so.Thatt is something I dislike. Therefore, I hate Ferrari and Man U. To state two examples.

[/quote]

Have you driven a Ferrari? I was lucky enough to be bought a "track day" at Thruxton and amongst other cars I drove a Ferrari 355. It was the most sublime driving experience I have ever had, a supreme piece of engineering. (I also drove a 430, the property of a fellow director at my company, and that was also wonderful although I nearly wrote it off hitting the rev limiter when overtaking.) Ferraris are wonderful cars and it is foolish to ignore them because of prejudice!

Similarly Man U are a great side. I've suported Spurs all my life and always will but I admire Man U. I hope we beat them tomorrow but actually I won't be upset if we don't because they are admirable.

Chris

PS I drove a Subaru Impreza for years because as a road car I think it was almost impossible to beat. About as much fun as is possible with your clothes on. A Ferrari is mad as a road car as is a Maclaren.

 

[Covenanter]

Ferrari fanboys

If the Ferrari was technically the better car, I'd choose the McLaren. I hate Ferrari with as much passion as the Tifosi love Ferrari.

So in answer to your question, preference and prejudice.

But why? Were you bitten by a horse when a child?

Chris

It's Man U syndrome. People who follow the herd because it is seen as "cool" to do so.Thatt is something I dislike. Therefore, I hate Ferrari and Man U. To state two examples.

[/quote]

PS I hope you'll forgive me but I wouldn't buy hifi from somebody with such an irrational view of the world.

Chris

 

[CnoEvil]

PS I drove a Subaru Impreza for years because as a road car I think it was almost impossible to beat. About as much fun as is possible with your clothes on. A Ferrari is mad as a road car as is a Maclaren.

I was lucky enough to drive Subarus as well......didn't have the awful image of the Escort Cosworth.

Very nice car!

 

[Frank Harvey]

PS I hope you'll forgive me but I wouldn't buy hifi from somebody with such an irrational view of the world.

Chris

The world?! Wow...

In that case, you can buy from my colleague who has no interest in cars whatsoever, so he doesn't have the same irrational view of "the world".

 

[gregvet]

PS I hope you'll forgive me but I wouldn't buy hifi from somebody with such an irrational view of the world.

Chris

what a bizarre statement!

I am sure you have unwittingly bought produce of various kinds from atheists, Buddhists, born again Christians, homeopaths, conspiracy theorists, and people who believe in elves and goblins.

None of the produce they supplied you with was any less (or higher) quality as a result, and you almost certainly got what you asked for.

Why should buying Hifi be any different, and what possible effect does the salespersons own beliefs have on the products you choose to demo and/or buy when doing business with them?

 

[byakuya83]

Apologies if this has already been covered. A believe this is a good definition of audible transparency: "Ethan Winer, an acoustics expert, states that gear passing all these criteria will not contribute any audible sound of its own and in fact sound the same as any other gear passing the same criteria. - Frequency Response: 20 hz to 20 Khz +/- 0.1 dB - Distortion: At least 100 dB (0.001%) below the music while others consider 80 dB (0.01%) to be sufficient and Ethan’s own tests confirm that. - Noise: At least 100 dB below the music - Time Based Errors – In the digital world this is jitter and the 100 dB rule applies for jitter components." I agree with this definition, and believe it is the only sensible goal of hi-fi. Clearly, this has to apply at your chosen listening level, e.g., when your amp starts clipping it will no longer be audibly transparent. Speakers are the component furthest from being audibly transparent, which is why many people recommend spending most of your budget on them. Obviously, there's nothing wrong with personal preference, people differ in their tolerance to different types of distortion. BTW, to me'system matching' (beyond basic compatibility) is about adding one kind of distortion to another to mask each components shortcomings, e.g., using bandwidth distortion to mask IM distortion around a speaker's crossover.

WinterRacer, I don't understand what the measurements mean. What does +/- 0.1 dB mean with regard to frequency response?

Are you able to link to a piece of equipment online and explain how to assess whether it is transparent or not?

I'm a little confused - would this mean that using the same source and speaker that any combination of CD/amp would sound identical if both were considered transparent or had the same level of transparency?

 

[the record spot]

I found this comment on another forum that I think sums things up nicely:-

This is a subject of endless debate on internet fora devoted to hi-fi gear. In theory, an amp that did everything perfectly should sound no different than another perfect amp, but alas, none are perfect. The debate generally breaks down into two camps- those who believe that measurements and testing by objective criteria can describe an amp's sonics- thus, an amp with a more even frequency balance, lower forms of distortion, etc. will be more accurate- and shouldn't sound any different than another amp with the same specifications. But all that may tell us is that the specifications and measurements don't adequately describe what we are hearing.

And the second camp- less heavily dependent on objective criteria and bases evaluations on how the gear sounds in a given system. In the US, Julian Hirsch is usually given credit (or blame) for the notion that all well designed amps should sound the same. The merit of this view is often supported by blind testing where listeners, given the opportunity to compare a change in equipment without knowing what the change is, have great difficulty in making accurate distinctions. But that may also be a failing of the test procedure, in using small snippets of music and making quick A/B comparisons.

In my view, different amps sound different, and much depends on the associated equipment. I respect measurements as information, but also trust my ears."

In short, you probably need to do a bit of both - check out the spec sheet, then have a listen to a few items and see what works for you.

 

[Covenanter]

PS I hope you'll forgive me but I wouldn't buy hifi from somebody with such an irrational view of the world.

Chris

what a bizarre statement!

I am sure you have unwittingly bought produce of various kinds from atheists, Buddhists, born again Christians, homeopaths, conspiracy theorists, and people who believe in elves and goblins.

None of the produce they supplied you with was any less (or higher) quality as a result, and you almost certainly got what you asked for.

Why should buying Hifi be any different, and what possible effect does the salespersons own beliefs have on the products you choose to demo and/or buy when doing business with them?

Generally speaking one doesn't know but given that this guy has told us what he believes I won't be heading to his shop!

Chris

 

[byakuya83]

Two different systems but with identical measurements can produce a different sound? Is that correct?

If so, perhaps specifications and measurements of transparency aren't as important as simply listening.

 

[gregvet]

I believe he only works there. Either way I still don't get why it would make any difference to you as a customer.

 

[Covenanter]

I believe he only works there. Either way I still don't get why it would make any difference to you as a customer.

Because to a certain extent it's nice to think that one can depend on the expertise of the person in the shop. After all they will have had more opportunity to listen to kit then you will ever have.

Chris

 

[Electro]

PS I drove a Subaru Impreza for years because as a road car I think it was almost impossible to beat. About as much fun as is possible with your clothes on. A Ferrari is mad as a road car as is a Maclaren.

I was lucky enough to drive Subarus as well......didn't have the awful image of the Escort Cosworth.

Very nice car!

I have one, a classic version 4 Sti redtop japanese import that is currently broken awaiting a new forged engine when I can find the money and the time to do it

Forget the Ferrari and the McLaren my choice would be a Noble M600 , a comparatively simple and basic piece of superb engineering that would suit me perfectly if I was lucky enough to win the lottery .

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jvHqB4ZxbU#t=13m15

I just watched the video and I need to go and lie down for a bit

Sorry to go off topic I could not help myself It is my other passion apart from music .

I just had to add this .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7HSI1ERy4

Now if I was to sell the house :shifty:

 

[WinterRacer]

WinterRacer, I don't understand what the measurements mean. What does +/- 0.1 dB mean with regard to frequency response?

+- 0.1db means that the frequency response if flat (doesn't vary in amplitude) to within +0.1db or - 0.1db. No frequencies are articificically accentuated over others. As someone else said earlier, I think this probably overly cautious...

Are you able to link to a piece of equipment online and explain how to assess whether it is transparent or not?

Find some kit you're interested in, look at the specs and compare to Ethan's parameters. Probably start with frequency response, S/N and THD of the kit you're interested in. If it's digital look for jitter below 250ns (pretty much any digital transport meets this).

A good example of something that is audibly transparent is 16bit 44.1Khz PCM. S/R is 96db (effectively more with noise shaping), frequency response is flat within the above parameters.

What this means is buying a 'hi-res' recording with the final mix encoded at a sample rate over 44.1Khz or bit depth over 16bits (e.g., 96Khz & 24bits) is pointless as it will sound identical to one encoded at 44.1Khz /16 (unless encoded from a different master).

I'm a little confused - would this mean that using the same source and speaker that any combination of CD/amp would sound identical if both were considered transparent or had the same level of transparency?

Good question. You've hit the nail on the head, yes. Two CD players (or any components) that are audibly transparent will sound identical.

However, I've never seen a review or group review where the reviewer said two components sounded exactly the same. IMO, this is because tests are sighted, subjective and written to be entertaining, not because there's nothing out there that is audibly transparent. Try an ABX test on 320kbps MP3 vs. FLAC and let us know how you get on.

 

[WinterRacer]

I have no problem with accuracy - for some that means striving to get as close as possible to what is on the record. For others (like me) it means getting as close as possible to the sound of the real thing (which is why I listen to music in the first place). This is a subtle but fundamental difference in the two approaches. The person with the absolutely "neutral" system may relish in the fact that (say) a quarter of their music collection sounds pretty dreadful, citing how accurate their system is; personally I revel in the fact of how good it all sounds.

FWIW. It wasn't me who described Jitter as a data error.

Hi Cno, I know it wasn't you who described jitter that way, I was just too lazy to find the right post to quote and thought I could kill two birds with one stone - sorry.

If I understand you correctly, the difference in the two approaches you describe is:

1. Accuracy = trying to get as close to the recording as possible

2. Accuracy = trying to get as close to the sound of real instruments, etc.

So, the second approach is trying to 'correct' recordings to make them sound more realistic by adding certain types of distortion. Is that right? If so, that seems like something that might work with a few recording, e.g., overly bright ones tamed with some bandwidth distortion, but will also ruin a good recording.

Why would an 'absolutely neutral' system render 25% of a record collection unlistenable? I guess you're saying that you disagree with most recordings and feel they should be altered in some way?

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi Cno, I know it wasn't you who described jitter that way, I was just too lazy to find the right post to quote and thought I could kill two birds with one stone - sorry.

If I understand you correctly, the difference in the two approaches you describe is:

1. Accuracy = trying to get as close to the recording as possible

2. Accuracy = trying to get as close to the sound of real instruments, etc.

So, the second approach is trying to 'correct' recordings to make them sound more realistic by adding certain types of distortion. Is that right? If so, that seems like something that might work with a few recording, e.g., overly bright ones tamed with some bandwidth distortion, but will also ruin a good recording.

Why would an 'absolutely neutral' system render 25% of a record collection unlistenable? I guess you're saying that you disagree with most recordings and feel they should be altered in some way?

Hi WR

All my posts come from "my perspective", which is personal, and which I try not to impose on anybody else, as "fact".

Here are fairly comprehensive measurements of my amp, which has very low distortion, yet still doesn't make bad recordings worse: http://www.avhub.com.au/images/stories/australian-hifi/reviews/2011-03/Musical_Fidelity_AMS_35i_Amplifier_Review/musical_fidelity_ams35i_amplifier_review_lores.pdf

I have tried a fair amount of amps in my time, and the "so called" neutral amps would make at least 25% of my music collection un-enjoyable....for my taste.

I grew up with a mother who was a classically trained singer, and a father who was an amateur conductor for the local choral society....so I went to a lot of concerts; as well as playing a musical instrument in a school orchestra.......so this is my benchmark.

How much of one's music is badly recorded is down to taste and luck.....I picked 25% out of the air, but made that clear with the word "say".

In this hobby, you cannot "role out" my experience as the rule book for everyone else......there are a lot of people on here who completely agree with me, just as there are a lot of people who just don't get where I'm coming from.....c'est la vie.

Are you saying that you should buy a system that's as "accurate" as possible to the recording, even if you don't like the way it sounds?.....or are you saying that you cannot understand people who go for a "life-like" presentation, in preference to this?

My outlook is one of "Live and let live"......if people find what I have to say is helpful, that's great; but I don't have an over-riding urge to to push my views on anyone who thinks I'm deluded. I try to respect all opinions, and not to deride people who have an opposing POV.

EDIT. The link isn't working, but if interested, does work from post 6 here: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/driving-proac-d38s?page=2