No it isnt. Although perhaps it is but on a minute scale.
Attenuators help systems that are simply too loud at 9.00 on the amp and very loud at 11.00, usually as a result of a cd playing outputting excess voltage. The improvemnets experienced by sufferers of the above are not really improvements but just getting the signature of their Amp back.
Attenuators help systems that are simply too loud at 9.00 on the amp and very loud at 11.00, usually as a result of a cd playing outputting excess voltage. The improvemnets experienced by sufferers of the above are not really improvements but just getting the signature of their Amp back.
It definitely isn't - as the gain reduced is by 10dB, the signal to noise ratio is improved by 10dB - the volume pot is getting more stretched and the amplifier is working more efficiently.
Also, the mid-range is more prominent through the range. The load from the over heavy voltage output from CD players has been reduced, and it is widely acknowledged that they are too high......
Also, the mid-range is more prominent through the range. The load from the over heavy voltage output from CD players has been reduced, and it is widely acknowledged that they are too high......
Graham, could you try to explain how an advantage as far as sound quality is achieved, in as easier explaination to understand as possible?? I've wanted to understand how these work for a while but fail too. I'm currently attenuating between my source and amp by not using attenuators, but having the output of my external DAC at the half way point. Now this offers an advantage in that there is more volume control when adjusting using the amp's remote. However I don't understand how they improve sound quality. There has been much debate about music being engineered 'too loud', and thus having very little dynamic range. I have then also heard people saying that attenuators 're-open' this dynamic range; which is completely incorrect! as this shows: www.turnmeup.org . Once the dynamic range is compressed you cannot 'get it back'....
matengawhat
Well-known member
The way i read it is that by reducing the input volume the harder the amp has to work for the same given volume - most amps only work to say 10 maybe 11 before its to loud so not utilising the real power of the amp before everthing becomes overblown so by using them it allows the amp to be more productive and fills out the sound - you can't get back what isn't there because of compression these just allow the amp to breath. Your Dac with work in the same principle by reducing the input volume allowing the amp to breath.
With regards to the compression bit it suggest that as producers turn everything up they have to reduce the dynamic range to fit the waveforms on a cd - get really complicated about now - best thing for the industry to do is turn all the level down and leave the dynamics - once read somewhere that when CDs were first produced not sure if still do - the record companies decided to remove all the frequencies that is was perceived the human ear couldn't hear to save space this left cds lifeless which is why many people still think vinyl sounds far better. If thats a myth i'm sorry but sure read it somewhere many years ago.
With regards to the compression bit it suggest that as producers turn everything up they have to reduce the dynamic range to fit the waveforms on a cd - get really complicated about now - best thing for the industry to do is turn all the level down and leave the dynamics - once read somewhere that when CDs were first produced not sure if still do - the record companies decided to remove all the frequencies that is was perceived the human ear couldn't hear to save space this left cds lifeless which is why many people still think vinyl sounds far better. If thats a myth i'm sorry but sure read it somewhere many years ago.
Were these Rothwell, Goldenjacks or Russ Andrews? If not Goldenjacks I would try a pair of 10db for £24 and he might put up a return if you're not happy as every retailer should....... Or you might get something from Rothwells, or if just loaded try Russ A 
When you say sounds flat, the Rothwells I had were not as transparent as the Goldenjacks. Not tried the Russ A though.
When you say sounds flat, the Rothwells I had were not as transparent as the Goldenjacks. Not tried the Russ A though.matengawhat
Well-known member
with regards to the music compression volume questions this is a great article and explains the reasons why new cds sound poor - some of the greatest music of the last 15 years has been destroyed - http://www.mindspring.com/~mrichter/dynamics/dynamics.htm - try the hard fi album Stars of CCTV - everything way to loud - drums sound mushy lack definition and focus - apart from that great album!
[quote user="matengawhat"]The way i read it is that by reducing the input volume the harder the amp has to work for the same given volume - most amps only work to say 10 maybe 11 before its to loud so not utilising the real power of the amp before everthing becomes overblown so by using them it allows the amp to be more productive and fills out the sound - you can't get back what isn't there because of compression these just allow the amp to breath. Your Dac with work in the same principle by reducing the input volume allowing the amp to breath.
With regards to the compression bit it suggest that as producers turn everything up they have to reduce the dynamic range to fit the waveforms on a cd - get really complicated about now - best thing for the industry to do is turn all the level down and leave the dynamics - once read somewhere that when CDs were first produced not sure if still do - the record companies decided to remove all the frequencies that is was perceived the human ear couldn't hear to save space this left cds lifeless which is why many people still think vinyl sounds far better. If thats a myth i'm sorry but sure read it somewhere many years ago.[/quote]
I thought the only amps to go to 11 were Spinal Tap's ;-) Oh, you mean 10 or 11 as in clock face...........
Totally agree and answered very nicely. A variable output DAC will do the same thing in effect. However, a decent DAC will cost a packet and you might not like the resulting 'house sound'. However, if you're happy with the house sound of your CDP but suffer from the 9 o'clock volume problem - attenuators will do the trick.
However, your myth about CD may or not be incorrect. I would be skeptical. What I do know is that the first CDs were manufactured carefully, there were many wasted, but to some audiophiles those pressed by certain plants are far better than the increasingly loud and compressed CDs as demanded by the industry in recent years Joe's post refers to.
For example, Genesis Seconds Out (from I think a certain French plant) has a version which is apparently superior.
With regards to the compression bit it suggest that as producers turn everything up they have to reduce the dynamic range to fit the waveforms on a cd - get really complicated about now - best thing for the industry to do is turn all the level down and leave the dynamics - once read somewhere that when CDs were first produced not sure if still do - the record companies decided to remove all the frequencies that is was perceived the human ear couldn't hear to save space this left cds lifeless which is why many people still think vinyl sounds far better. If thats a myth i'm sorry but sure read it somewhere many years ago.[/quote]
I thought the only amps to go to 11 were Spinal Tap's ;-) Oh, you mean 10 or 11 as in clock face
...........Totally agree and answered very nicely. A variable output DAC will do the same thing in effect. However, a decent DAC will cost a packet and you might not like the resulting 'house sound'. However, if you're happy with the house sound of your CDP but suffer from the 9 o'clock volume problem - attenuators will do the trick.
However, your myth about CD may or not be incorrect. I would be skeptical. What I do know is that the first CDs were manufactured carefully, there were many wasted, but to some audiophiles those pressed by certain plants are far better than the increasingly loud and compressed CDs as demanded by the industry in recent years Joe's post refers to.
For example, Genesis Seconds Out (from I think a certain French plant) has a version which is apparently superior.
matengawhat
Well-known member
i think we are increasingly living in the age of micro systems and portable audio where compression is considered more important than audio quality and where the real enthusiasts are suffering - most ppl are more interested in bragging about how many tracks their products can hold than quality - if i'm honest i think vinyl from the late 70s eaerly 80s sounds far better than modern vinyl and cds that i feel have been created from modified master tapes - ie turned up to loud - musicians create quiet sections for effect so why are they as loud as the rest of the music
[quote user="matengawhat"]i think we are increasingly living in the age of micro systems and portable audio where compression is considered more important than audio quality and where the real enthusiasts are suffering - most ppl are more interested in bragging about how many tracks their products can hold than quality - if i'm honest i think vinyl from the late 70s eaerly 80s sounds far better than modern vinyl and cds that i feel have been created from modified master tapes - ie turned up to loud - musicians create quiet sections for effect so why are they as loud as the rest of the music[/quote]
Nice post. I work with someone at work who's 4000 CD collection is mp3 junk d/l illegally - no emphasis on quality whatsoever.
Nice post. I work with someone at work who's 4000 CD collection is mp3 junk d/l illegally - no emphasis on quality whatsoever.
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