Not so long ago he came to us seeking advice on what speakers to buy for his conservatory and now he is bravely diving in the most contraversial audiophile topics such as cables and bi-wiring. I'm well chuffed!
Silver cables will clash with the glass in your conservatory. Best to stick to warm copper me thinks. Or wear sunglasses while listening. *dirol*
- in reply to David's post #50 above...
David, at the risk of digressing slightly, the reason that drug companies do 'double blind' testing is that it was found that even when the patient had no idea whether they were receiving a real drug or placebo, if the clinician who administered the drug knew, then the subconcious cues given to the patient by the clinician skewed the results. Makes you think, and also I am afraid rather brings in to question the "even my girlfriend/brother/wife/mother (delete as appropriate) could tell it sounded brighter" statement - which I am afraid is a bit of a standing joke around here.
Like a lot of things in HiFi, there is a grain of truth about silver plated cables sounding brighter, which falls to pieces when you do the analysis. The story goes like this. Silver is a better conductor than copper. Skin effect causes high frequency signals to travel along the outside of the cable in the low resistance silver, whereas low frequencies travel along the middle of the cable in the higher resistance copper. So in effect, a silver plated cable is really a high pass filter.
All of which is true except.... skin effect is pretty much negligable at audio frequencies and the silver plating is so thin that even if the HF was on the surface (which it isn't) the silver wouldn't make any difference. One interesting point is aluminium is a better conductor than silver by weight - one of the reasons they use it for overhead power cables. Don't find too many hifi cables touting the benefits of aluminium....
The truth is that silver plated cables have a reputation for being 'bright' because they are silver and shiny, and copper cables have a reputation for being 'warm' because they are a rich copper colour. It certainly has nothing to do with the physics.
As for biwiring, it gets a bit more complicated. I can go into details, but electrically there is virtually no difference between running 1 x 2mm cable to a speaker, or running 2 x 2mm cables, one to the woofer via a crossover and one to a tweeter via a crossover. If anything, the 2 x 2mm is worse as it introduces a small bump in frequency response at the crossover frequency.
Leave the jumper plate in place on the speaker however and 2 x 2mm is twice as good as 1 x 2mm as you are now running the cables in parallel.
David, at the risk of digressing slightly, the reason that drug companies do 'double blind' testing is that it was found that even when the patient had no idea whether they were receiving a real drug or placebo, if the clinician who administered the drug knew, then the subconcious cues given to the patient by the clinician skewed the results. Makes you think, and also I am afraid rather brings in to question the "even my girlfriend/brother/wife/mother (delete as appropriate) could tell it sounded brighter" statement - which I am afraid is a bit of a standing joke around here.
Like a lot of things in HiFi, there is a grain of truth about silver plated cables sounding brighter, which falls to pieces when you do the analysis. The story goes like this. Silver is a better conductor than copper. Skin effect causes high frequency signals to travel along the outside of the cable in the low resistance silver, whereas low frequencies travel along the middle of the cable in the higher resistance copper. So in effect, a silver plated cable is really a high pass filter.
All of which is true except.... skin effect is pretty much negligable at audio frequencies and the silver plating is so thin that even if the HF was on the surface (which it isn't) the silver wouldn't make any difference. One interesting point is aluminium is a better conductor than silver by weight - one of the reasons they use it for overhead power cables. Don't find too many hifi cables touting the benefits of aluminium....
The truth is that silver plated cables have a reputation for being 'bright' because they are silver and shiny, and copper cables have a reputation for being 'warm' because they are a rich copper colour. It certainly has nothing to do with the physics.
As for biwiring, it gets a bit more complicated. I can go into details, but electrically there is virtually no difference between running 1 x 2mm cable to a speaker, or running 2 x 2mm cables, one to the woofer via a crossover and one to a tweeter via a crossover. If anything, the 2 x 2mm is worse as it introduces a small bump in frequency response at the crossover frequency.
Leave the jumper plate in place on the speaker however and 2 x 2mm is twice as good as 1 x 2mm as you are now running the cables in parallel.
Thanks Andy, some great points there especially the comparisons between silver and copper visually. I guess the minor difference in cross section (Silver cable @ 1.5mm vs Copper @ 2mm) may have as much to do with the slightly 'warmer' sound of the Copper. Perhaps the coppers lower resistance makes the overall load easier for the amp to drive and hence improves the bass?
The other cable specs are:
Copper : Resistance 0.0088 Ω/m, Inductance 0.518 µH/m
Silver: resistance 0.021 Ω/m, Inductance 0.47 µH/m
The other cable specs are:
Copper : Resistance 0.0088 Ω/m, Inductance 0.518 µH/m
Silver: resistance 0.021 Ω/m, Inductance 0.47 µH/m
I feel there is possibly another human effect going here....pack mentality, or following the leader. I believe many peoples minds have been changed by other people with alternative opinions, to the point where so many people belong in one camp it then becomes welcoming and protecting to join that group, and feel part of a group. I will read through some of chris's links soon, but I am still a firm believer that interconnects can make an audible difference, even if they are both correctly made. I believe this because I had been awre of bias maybe ten years before I got into HiFi, and I think once we are aware of something like this, we learn how to detect and avoid it. Now I don't believe it is possible to remove all bias and placebo effects from ones psyche but I do think it's possible to remove some. When I bought my first "upgraded" set of connects I heard an audible difference, but to the negative...they sounded worse in the particular set up I had. I had not read reviews on these connects so wasn't expecting anything other than some kind of improvement. My next "upgrade" I did some more reading of reviews first to try and get a respected interconnect. I chose one set (£45) and it was a definite improvement. Strangely, I think maybe these differences can be more audible in a weaker amplifier. If the amp is less powerful maybe, the frequencies are more restricted already and a naff cable could really make one appreciate this naffness. My third "upgrade" consisted of another £45 cable, by the same company and I may have been able to tell a slight difference, but nothing major, and I'm not sure I would be able to tell them apart in a blind test. My 4th "upgrade" I read up some more again. I chose another cable, £80 , and when these arrived, Im pretty sure I could hear an immediate change, although not 100% convinced everything was for the better, but strangely, what I heard was what the review mentioned....more bass. Not tighter bass, just more if it,cand that is exactly what I hear. Now, if I'm aware of placebo, why did I find my first upgrade to be worse, but my forth to be better, when on both times I was expecting an improvement...this debunks any expectation bias theory.
I still believe there are more things we don't know about physics than we do. I'm not a great physicist but I find it interesting and am slowly learning more. I have recently learnt a bit about quantum physics and the photoelectric effect where various colours of light effect the flow of electrons. If differnt coloured light can effect electrons differently, what else can? And how can all these knock on effects (which could be almost infinite) effect the sound outputted?
Once I have lived with my interconnects for a year or so,I will conduct a blind test ( unfortunately I don't have the cables that were terrible as I threw them away, so I would have to test between two cables more alike, but I wouldn't conduct the test if I felt I wasn't going to achieve a result to show cables are different) and I will post the results either way.
I still believe there are more things we don't know about physics than we do. I'm not a great physicist but I find it interesting and am slowly learning more. I have recently learnt a bit about quantum physics and the photoelectric effect where various colours of light effect the flow of electrons. If differnt coloured light can effect electrons differently, what else can? And how can all these knock on effects (which could be almost infinite) effect the sound outputted?
Once I have lived with my interconnects for a year or so,I will conduct a blind test ( unfortunately I don't have the cables that were terrible as I threw them away, so I would have to test between two cables more alike, but I wouldn't conduct the test if I felt I wasn't going to achieve a result to show cables are different) and I will post the results either way.
Thanks and yes I agree people are often looking for reassurance and approval especially when doubt exists about a decision.
Now for some light hearted science. How does this affect the perceived performance of your hifi over the years
http://themedicinejournal.com/articles/do-your-ears-and-nose-continue-to-grow-as-you-age/
Now for some light hearted science. How does this affect the perceived performance of your hifi over the years
http://themedicinejournal.com/articles/do-your-ears-and-nose-continue-to-grow-as-you-age/
radiorog said:
unfotunately that's not how expectation bias works. It's more that the expectation is that you know you have purchased/obtained something different than what you have, therefore you expect to hear a difference (good or bad). Similarly with the placebo effect. The only way to try and rule out some of those is conduct things like double blind tests etc. However, I would not expect many people to do this as they are pretty boring, take time, and require at least another person at the very least etc... This tends to be the crux of a lot of the debates/arguments whatever is that some people refuse to believe that they are affected by these well documented scientifically studied events, or think that say for example if they close their eyes, they have suddenly eliminated them and therefore what they hear is true, real and must be a fact. It's not the case unfortunately. It actually takes quite a lot of effort, organisation and time to even start to being to rule out these things we talk about. There's very few areas where people do this however (as in deny that they can be affected), hifi being one of the exceptions, and people suddenly get upset, defensive and abusive if you happen to mention that these well studied phenomenon can happen to them with regards to their hobby, yet mention an optical illusion and they accept what it is. For example, you can present, or even carry out a well done scientifically based study to say try and prove hypothesis a. The aforementioned hifi doesn't like these results, so instead of trying to organise a counter test, or show and explain counter results, generally the same old an hominem things get thrown about such as "your stereo isn't revealing enough", "you choose not to hear it", "you've obvioulsy never heary x,y and z", "it can't be measured" etc. Which is a shame becuase some people take great time and lengths to present such cases only to be met with what is essentially somebody blowing a raspberry back at them. And yes, this also happens both ways people.
It's odd, but then there's the whole other byproduct of advertising, marketing, buyers remorse, brand loyatly etc which are also not unique to hifi that also contribute to *all* of this, but that's another story altogether. We are after all humans, and who wants to be told, with some form of objective proof that the 2k they just dropped on item y is actually no better, objectively, than item z that only cost a tenth of the price. (network streamers without dac's - i'm looking at you here 😉 )
Irrespective of the same old cable debate, most amusing is some peoples understanding of placeabo, expectation bias etc. To be able to control these brain functions would be sub-human or super-human so good luck with that. 🙂
Covenanter
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David Smart said:
Certainly hairs on ears grow as you get older. I'm thinking of making a separate visit to my hairdressers to get them dealt with!
Chris
Covenanter
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radiorog said:
Physics is certainly not a "done deal" although the central ideas of quantum physics have not changed for 70+ years now. If you haven't read it "In search of Schrodinger's Cat" is a good introduction for the layman (it is a bit out of date).
A double blind test is ideal. You need a helper to conduct the changes who doesn't know what the changes are.
Chris
nopiano
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- Feb 15, 2009
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Most cable demos aren't, of course, blind or anything like. They mostly involve listening to a track or a few minutes, changing something, then relistening.
I have found that listening to anything, then relistening, produces a different perception, particularly when you are listening out for a change. That seems to be the key - the 2nd time you hear more, maybe because you cannot absorb everything at one sitting? You needn't change anything - try it! Just listen a second time.
I write as a believer that cables affect the sound. I will soon be taking in a few days at Leeds for the piano competition, and think I can often tell a performer's nationality by their playing. I doubt that is measurable, but I am confident I'm not influenced by anything I read or see, even though a study showed we are affected by watching a performer! Hey ho.
I have found that listening to anything, then relistening, produces a different perception, particularly when you are listening out for a change. That seems to be the key - the 2nd time you hear more, maybe because you cannot absorb everything at one sitting? You needn't change anything - try it! Just listen a second time.
I write as a believer that cables affect the sound. I will soon be taking in a few days at Leeds for the piano competition, and think I can often tell a performer's nationality by their playing. I doubt that is measurable, but I am confident I'm not influenced by anything I read or see, even though a study showed we are affected by watching a performer! Hey ho.
I now try not to get involved in polemic, pointless and generally fractious cable debates, as neither side listens to the other.
I have heard cables from Atlas (including Mavros and Asimi), Chord (including Tuned Aray), TCI, QED, Linn, Cardas, Clearer Audio, Telurium Q, Vetere, Naim, Audioquest and Furutech.
There has been expensive cables that I didn't like and cheap ones that I did. I have heard differences, some subtle and some more obvious. I can only report what I hear and will never state that my views are fact. I will also suggest that people try for themselves, while never spending more than would bring a bigger gain elsewhere in the system.
If someone is interested in my experiences, or wants suggestions, I will try to help, whether at the value or expensive end of the market....but what I'm reluctant to do, is get embroiled in a mud slinging match.
A few years back, I bought an Atlas Voyager I/C from EBay, which was to be an upgrade from the Linn Black that I was currently using. When inserted into the system, it sounded forward, shouty and slightly sibilant. I persevered for a week then removed it. A month or so later, I traded it in with Lyric hifi against another purchase.
Roll on a couple of years and I was back in Lyric deciding whether I would buy some R100s, or pay the extra for the LS50s. I had 2 long sessions over a couple of weekends, where I decided that the LS50s were indeed well worth the extra. So before shelling out the extra, I brought the long suffering Mrs. Cno down to make sure she was happy with the decision.
Anyway, the system was set up the same as the last two times...but something was definitely off. The sound was grating and slightly unpleasant and the natural involving sound from previous sessions was absent.
When Michael left the room to see to another customer, I decided to poke around to see if I could spot a problem....the speaker cables were the same instal cables he always used and the equipment was also all the same, including the speaker stands.
When looking behind, I suddenly spotted there was an Atlas Voyager I/C being used. This greatly puzzled me, as he doesn't sell Atlas and always uses Linn Blacks. When he'd finished with the customer, I asked him why he'd connected it up with the Atlas. He replied, that the day before, he had somebody asking if they could try something more "lively" than the Linn Blacks, so he had routed around his shop and found the Voyagers. He then had forgot to change them over for my dem.
Anyway, the Linn Blacks were returned to the system and the shoutyness went away and the speakers sounded as I had remembered.
It turns out, that these were the Voyagers that I had traded in and I certainly wasn't expecting them to be used in a dem system 2 years later.
I don't claim that this event proves anything, only that I heard differences in a "test" that was so blind, that I didn't even know it was a test....and what I heard from the Voyager on that day was consistent with the reasons that I traded it in all those years ago.
I have heard cables from Atlas (including Mavros and Asimi), Chord (including Tuned Aray), TCI, QED, Linn, Cardas, Clearer Audio, Telurium Q, Vetere, Naim, Audioquest and Furutech.
There has been expensive cables that I didn't like and cheap ones that I did. I have heard differences, some subtle and some more obvious. I can only report what I hear and will never state that my views are fact. I will also suggest that people try for themselves, while never spending more than would bring a bigger gain elsewhere in the system.
If someone is interested in my experiences, or wants suggestions, I will try to help, whether at the value or expensive end of the market....but what I'm reluctant to do, is get embroiled in a mud slinging match.
A few years back, I bought an Atlas Voyager I/C from EBay, which was to be an upgrade from the Linn Black that I was currently using. When inserted into the system, it sounded forward, shouty and slightly sibilant. I persevered for a week then removed it. A month or so later, I traded it in with Lyric hifi against another purchase.
Roll on a couple of years and I was back in Lyric deciding whether I would buy some R100s, or pay the extra for the LS50s. I had 2 long sessions over a couple of weekends, where I decided that the LS50s were indeed well worth the extra. So before shelling out the extra, I brought the long suffering Mrs. Cno down to make sure she was happy with the decision.
Anyway, the system was set up the same as the last two times...but something was definitely off. The sound was grating and slightly unpleasant and the natural involving sound from previous sessions was absent.
When Michael left the room to see to another customer, I decided to poke around to see if I could spot a problem....the speaker cables were the same instal cables he always used and the equipment was also all the same, including the speaker stands.
When looking behind, I suddenly spotted there was an Atlas Voyager I/C being used. This greatly puzzled me, as he doesn't sell Atlas and always uses Linn Blacks. When he'd finished with the customer, I asked him why he'd connected it up with the Atlas. He replied, that the day before, he had somebody asking if they could try something more "lively" than the Linn Blacks, so he had routed around his shop and found the Voyagers. He then had forgot to change them over for my dem.
Anyway, the Linn Blacks were returned to the system and the shoutyness went away and the speakers sounded as I had remembered.
It turns out, that these were the Voyagers that I had traded in and I certainly wasn't expecting them to be used in a dem system 2 years later.
I don't claim that this event proves anything, only that I heard differences in a "test" that was so blind, that I didn't even know it was a test....and what I heard from the Voyager on that day was consistent with the reasons that I traded it in all those years ago.
Profigold Oxypure Interconnects
Audiofriendly silver, shielded mains cable
Naim NAC A5 or VdH CS122 Hybrid speaker cable
and the dot on the i ... Tacima's
🙂
Audiofriendly silver, shielded mains cable
Naim NAC A5 or VdH CS122 Hybrid speaker cable
and the dot on the i ... Tacima's
🙂
CnoEvil said:
Not until you hear MITs speaker cable
MITs technically aren't plain speaker cables because they have added circuitry that changes impedance and attenuates frequencies.
Vladimir said:
You're right Vlad.. Ive been to many speaker cable swap and yes I can hear a difference. I have once home demoed the TQ graphite with the salesman. Obviously he would be bias but he was so astound what the MITs sound compare to the TQ graphite.
iceman16 said:
Never seen this before but isn't this akin to placing some form of equaliser in the system post rather than pre amplification?
Getting back to the original question in the post 🙂. I've ordered both the Hyper 2 and QED XT40 on the basis I can return one (or both) if they don't work out (thank you future shop!). Now where did I leave that blindfold! *ok*
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