Atlas Hyper 2 vs QED XT40 vs Tellurium Q Black Speaker Cable

[bigboss]

Here here . Can't believe anyone who is actually registered / interested in this forum wouldn't understand that cables are a critical part of the overall 'system'. 

Why not?

 

[Coll]

Here here . Can't believe anyone who is actually registered / interested in this forum wouldn't understand that cables are a critical part of the overall 'system'.

Maybe most have been around long enough to realise like me that £ 3/4 per metre for speaker cable is the absolute most it is worth spending.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_10203552373284939]

Here is an interesting read on the subject

http://www.stereophile.com/content/minnesota-audio-society-conducts-cable-comparison-tests-0

 

[bigboss]

Here is an interesting read on the subject

http://www.stereophile.com/content/minnesota-audio-society-conducts-cable-comparison-tests-0

Such results will never allow a drug into the market.

They themselves say: "Since no statistical tests of significance have been applied to the results it is not possible to demonstrate that one set of cables was found to be superior to any others in an objective sense."

I'm sure you're aware of this:

http://gizmodo.com/305549/james-randi-offers-1-million-if-audiophiles-can-prove-7250-speaker-cables-are-better

You've got a chance here! *good*

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_10203552373284939]

I guess it's representative of this forum, some people can hear the difference & some people can't.

 

[bigboss]

Just to add: the tests were between 2 cables at a time, and no cable scored more than 59%, not much better than flipping a coin. That's why statistical tests were not applied deliberately. 40 submitted voting sheets. So the actual number of participants preferring one over the other is only 1 or 2 more than 20 (50%).

 

[davedotco]

I guess it's representative of this forum, some people can hear the difference & some people can't.

Careful there David.

I have absolutely no doubt that you hear significant differences when swapping cables, we all (well most of us) have and still do.

The question is, what actually makes the difference that we hear?

The overwhelming scientific evidence suggests that the extremely powerful psycological phenomena such as expectaion bias and placebo effect that are always present in sighted tests will be by far the dominant effect.

So it is not that some people can hear the difference and some can not, pretty much everyone does or has heard the difference but a difference of perspective as to what the changes actually are and what is causing them.

I understand that it can be very difficult 'getting your head around' these phenomena, after all the differences are so bl**dy obvious that they have to be real, right!

Well, maybe not, if you have never seen it, check out the short film on the McGurk effect it's only a couple of minutes and a good demonstration of how easily our hearing mechanism is fooled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0

 

[bigboss]

I guess it's representative of this forum, some people can hear the difference & some people can't.?

Careful there David.

I have absolutely no doubt that you hear significant differences when swapping cables, we all (well most of us) have and still do.

The question is, what actually makes the difference that we hear?

The overwhelming scientific evidence suggests that the extremely powerful psycological phenomena such as expectaion bias and placebo effect that are always present in sighted tests will be by far the dominant effect.

So it is not that some people can hear the difference and some can not, pretty much everyone does or has heard the difference but a difference of perspective as to what the changes actually are and what is causing them.

I understand that it can be very difficult 'getting your head around' these phenomena, after all the differences are so bl**dy obvious that they have to be real, right!

Well, maybe not, if you have never seen it, check out the short film on the McGurk effect it's only a couple of minutes and a good demonstration of how easily our hearing mechanism is fooled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0

Nicely put! *good*

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Nice to see reference to that little video again. Always brings a smile. At least those (involved with the test) spending $8000 on their new cables will now rest assured it was money well spent. (For 'spent' read 'wasted').

 

[andyjm]

Here here . Can't believe anyone who is actually registered / interested in this forum wouldn't understand that cables are a critical part of the overall 'system'.

David,

Some of us on here have tested, measured and designed audio equipment for a living. I know exactly how important cables are, and also how two properly constructed and correctly specified cables will measure and sound exactly the same - no matter the advertising budget of the respective cable sellers.

I have sat through carefully controlled demonstrations in acoustically treated environments and have been absolutely convinced I could hear very significant differences when there were none.

May I suggest that you look into studies on human perception, particularly suggestion bias and its effects. Your ears are only part of the listening process.

 

[ID.]

I guess it's representative of this forum, some people can hear the difference & some people can't.

Careful there David.

I have absolutely no doubt that you hear significant differences when swapping cables, we all (well most of us) have and still do.

The question is, what actually makes the difference that we hear?

The overwhelming scientific evidence suggests that the extremely powerful psycological phenomena such as expectaion bias and placebo effect that are always present in sighted tests will be by far the dominant effect.

So it is not that some people can hear the difference and some can not, pretty much everyone does or has heard the difference but a difference of perspective as to what the changes actually are and what is causing them.

I understand that it can be very difficult 'getting your head around' these phenomena, after all the differences are so bl**dy obvious that they have to be real, right!

Well, maybe not, if you have never seen it, check out the short film on the McGurk effect it's only a couple of minutes and a good demonstration of how easily our hearing mechanism is fooled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0

well put. I have both heard and not heard differences. I'm also aware of my fallibility. Even knowing that and not expecting or wanting to hear a difference I have, and will hear a difference just because I know something has been changed.

Hmm, sounds a little more open. The bass tightened up. There's definitely more air to the music, etc.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_10203552373284939]

Explains why I thought it was 'faa faa flacksheep all these years!' . At the end of the day if it sounds right to you then that's what matters. that video is somewhat irrelevant as there is only one sense being employed here, my ears!

 

[andyjm]

Explains why I thought it was 'faa faa flacksheep all these years!' . At the end of the day if it sounds right to you then that's what matters. that video is somewhat irrelevant as there is only one sense being employed here, my ears!

Generally, listening uses at least three senses - touch, sight and hearing.

The stereo illusion of a soundstage can be greatly enhanced either by darkening the room or by closing your eyes. When the brain is denied visual cues, it is much more willing to accept that a sound stage exists rather than two separate speakers.

The human body is capable of detecting low frequency vibration, the 'thump in the chest' from a sub woofer so loved by the home cinema crowd is detectable at much lower intensities and goes some way to enhancing a listener's perception of low frequency sound.

The point to remember is it your brain that does the listening, your ears are just part of the process. It is how your brain interprets inputs, filtered through expectations, bias, mood and who knows what else that dictates perceived sound. Thats why ABX and similar approaches are required to get a proper view of the performance of a system.

 

[Covenanter]

I can't post links here (if I click the link icon it just freezes) but for a balanced answer look at this that I have typed in manually:

http://stereos.about.com/od/assessoriesheadphones/a/Do-Speaker-Cables-Make-A-Difference-Science-Weighs-In.htm

I hope that works!

The conclusion is that there is little difference between cables of the same thickness, almost certainly inaudible, but the thicker the better.

Chris

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_10203552373284939]

Thanks but can't find the page. Yes thicker cables seem to be gaining popularity. I was looking at the Atlas Hyper 3.5 (3.5 mm) and QED XT40 (4mm) speaker cables but thought would 2 x 2 mm cables in biwire be as good or better?

 

[davedotco]

Explains why I thought it was 'faa faa flacksheep all these years!' . At the end of the day if it sounds right to you then that's what matters. that video is somewhat irrelevant as there is only one sense being employed here, my ears!

As has been said above, most listening tests involve senses other than just hearing, simply seeing what you are listening too makes such a huge difference that any 'real' differences, should there be any, are dwarfed by expectation bias.

On the otherhand, being comfortable with your setup usually makes a huge difference, if you think cable A sounds better than cable B, then use cable A and stop worrying about it.

I have described many times my 'fixation' in making sure that my speaker cables are exactly the same length, if i 'know' they are not, the soundstage is always skewed to one side, when I do not know, it makes no difference.

Result is that I always make sure that my speaker cables are the same length, then I can forget about the issue.

 

[Andrewjvt]

I can't post links here (if I click the link icon it just freezes) but for a balanced answer look at this that I have typed in manually:

http://stereos.about.com/od/assessoriesheadphones/a/Do-Speaker-Cables-Make-A-Difference-Science-Weighs-In.htm

I hope that works!

The conclusion is that there is little difference between cables of the same thickness, almost certainly inaudible, but the thicker the better.

Chris

?

+1

 

[Andrewjvt]

I have described many times my 'fixation' in making sure that my speaker cables are exactly the same length, if i 'know' they are not, the soundstage is always skewed to one side, when I do not know, it makes no difference.

Result is that I always make sure that my speaker cables are the same length, then I can forget about the issue.
[/quote]

I say: this is very important in fact. The only purpose for hifi and cables is to listen to music and relax. If you are worried that the cables are not good enough or the correct length etc then you are not relaxed/comfortable and thinking about wires/components instead of enjoying music.
In this case if you are someone like that its best in my opinion to rather buy the posh expensive cable and just get in with it so not to have any nagging feeling whilst listening or there is no point. My missis can enjoy music on anything like a laptop, car stereo, hifi and not even think about the sound quality - that does not mean she cant hear the difference, its just she dont care. Shes lucky. Most of us spend a fortune on hifi gear only to be listening to the system and not just enjoying it.

 

[cheeseboy]

Many tests have been carried out on cables with equipment which is much more sensitive than human ears and nobody has detected any difference in the signal in the audio frequency range as long as the cable is properly constructed.

Do you have links to any of these tests, I'm still yet to have been presented any from anyone on this forum?

here's a basic one I linked to last time you asked...

http://archimago.blogspot.nl/2015/06/measurements-speaker-cables-wires.html

if you can't remember that, i don't hold out much hope for your ability to remember auditory information to differentiate beteween differences in cables

There's also a plethora of links here you might want to work through for and others delictation which deals with a lot of the issues we tend to talk about. I've no problem with people having preferences or subjective opinions, but if people want to write off any of the studies done, ideally they need to do a similar type of study to prove what they are saying, not just say "oh I can hear it so it must be true" as that doesn't hold any water whatsoever when trying to debunk somebody elses work (and that goes for pretty much everything, not just hifi)

http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths

 

[cheeseboy]

I say: this is very important in fact. The only purpose for hifi and cables is to listen to music and relax. If you are worried that the cables are not good enough or the correct length etc then you are not relaxed/comfortable and thinking about wires/components instead of enjoying music. In this case if you are someone like that its best in my opinion to rather buy the posh expensive cable and just get in with it so not to have any nagging feeling whilst listening or there is no point. My missis can enjoy music on anything like a laptop, car stereo, hifi and not even think about the sound quality - that does not mean she cant hear the difference, its just she dont care. Shes lucky. Most of us spend a fortune on hifi gear only to be listening to the system and not just enjoying it.

I think this is an excellent point

 

[Covenanter]

Many tests have been carried out on cables with equipment which is much more sensitive than human ears and nobody has detected any difference in the signal in the audio frequency range as long as the cable is properly constructed.

Do you have links to any of these tests, I'm still yet to have been presented any from anyone on this forum?

here's a basic one I linked to last time you asked...

http://archimago.blogspot.nl/2015/06/measurements-speaker-cables-wires.html

if you can't remember that, i don't hold out much hope for your ability to remember auditory information to differentiate beteween differences in cables

There's also a plethora of links here you might want to work through for and others delictation which deals with a lot of the issues we tend to talk about. I've no problem with people having preferences or subjective opinions, but if people want to write off any of the studies done, ideally they need to do a similar type of study to prove what they are saying, not just say "oh I can hear it so it must be true" as that doesn't hold any water whatsoever when trying to debunk somebody elses work (and that goes for pretty much everything, not just hifi)

http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths

Good links.

Chris

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_10203552373284939]

Interesting reading! I think it's my ears that need upgrading .

 

[ellisdj]

Explains why I thought it was 'faa faa flacksheep all these years!' . At the end of the day if it sounds right to you then that's what matters. that video is somewhat irrelevant as there is only one sense being employed here, my ears!

The point to remember is it your brain that does the listening

That is my favourite quote from this thread - if your brain tells you your system sounds better with those cables in - it will time and time and time again. Then who cares what can or cant be proved. Blind abx tests proves that everything sounds the same so buy what you like or just buy the cheapest and try and be happy

 

[andyjm]

Explains why I thought it was 'faa faa flacksheep all these years!' . At the end of the day if it sounds right to you then that's what matters. that video is somewhat irrelevant as there is only one sense being employed here, my ears!

The point to remember is it your brain that does the listening

That is my favourite quote from this thread - if your brain tells you your system sounds better with those cables in - it will time and time and time again. Then who cares what can or cant be proved. Blind abx tests proves that everything sounds the same so buy what you like or just buy the cheapest and try and be happy

Ellisdj,

That is indeed the point. There seems to be the belief that those of us who keep banging on that generally cables are all the same just don't hear differences as cables / equipment are changed. Of course we do. The question is - are there really any differences?

It doesn't matter for your own use, if you are convinced that a particular brand of cable has excellent qualities and it sounds better to you, then go for it. It does sound better to you and therefore the cable has brought about an improvement as far as you are concerned.

This does however become a problem when you come to a forum like this and start advising other people on your cable, or a reviewer in a HiFi mag goes on with some subjective nonsense about the cable that he believes, but no one else can hear.

I try to explain that from an objective, engineering, fact based approach about the only thing that matters with speaker cables is resistance, and that means size. Two cables of approximately the same size and construction will produce the same sound out of a loudspeaker. Whether they will sound the same to you (or me come to that) is another matter entirely.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_10203552373284939]

Well said. One point though..when you say 'the only thing that matters is resistance', do you mean resistance overall? There is a distinct difference (which even my wife can hear) between the QED Silver Cable and the Atlas Copper? It would 'appear' that the QED is less resistive to higher frequencies (and hence sounds very bright / shrill).

..and where does this place biwiring? I'm struggling to remember ohms law etc. but surely 2 x 2mm OD cable runs per speaker will would give less resistance than 1 x 2mm or 1 x 3mm?