Arcam

[Tibor]

I think all budget amps and cd players have some brightness/harshness, they are not good for long time listening at high volumes(except some Nad and Arcam amps and cd players, I think).

Speakers with very much detail are not suitable for budget amps and players. Keep your speakers.

ÿFor analog-like(harshness free) sound add ÿtube dac for your systemÿ or buy an Icon Audio valve amp(500 pound). Arcam Solo mini or Audio Analogue Enigma (second hand) are made for you, I think, they are great for classical music.

ÿFor pop, rock, disco music keep your system.

 

[plastic penguin]

Tibor:

I think all budget amps and cd players have some brightness/harshness, they are not good for long time listening at high volumes(except some Nad and Arcam amps and cd players, I think).

Speakers with very much detail are not suitable for budget amps and players. Keep your speakers.

For analog-like(harshness free) sound add tube dac for your system or buy an Icon Audio valve amp(500 pound). Arcam Solo mini or Audio Analogue Enigma (second hand) are made for you, I think, they are great for classical music.

For pop, rock, disco music keep your system.

OMG - listen to Arcam entry-level stuff, it's far from bright or harsh....

 

[matthewpiano]

The Solo Mini has been suggested and I have discussed this option with the dealer. He stocks it and rates it very highly but he suggested that the Marantz pairing, in particular, performs even better and would suit my eclectic tastes very well. The Solo Mini is always a future audition option if the Marantz and Rotel items don't cut it.

 

[plastic penguin]

matthewpiano:The Solo Mini has been suggested and I have discussed this option with the dealer. He stocks it and rates it very highly but he suggested that the Marantz pairing, in particular, performs even better and would suit my eclectic tastes very well. The Solo Mini is always a future audition option if the Marantz and Rotel items don't cut it.

Mat, when I spoke to the Arcam rep at the last Novetel exhibition (3 years ago), he said the Solo was very good and practical. he said it was as good as my set-up, just. Now, unless Arcam have produced a miracle, then the Mini won't (or logic dictates it shouldn't) be as good sonically as the Solo.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

one off:
matthewpiano i decided id to leave the forum today for a while which is why i specified it would be my last comment in what i wrote this morning it was only the nature of one post got me annoyed enough to break that

so if you dont mind i will leave now besides its best if you make your own judgement

not because he hasn't really listened to the Rotels!

 

[matthewpiano]

My audition list has been extended. A friend has recently moved some fairly expensive kit on and down-sized to a relatively entry level Cambridge set-up of:

340C CD player
340A SE Amplifier
SL30 Speakers

He has strongly recommended that I give it a good listen because he is finding it to be very infectious in its musicality and particularly flexible about musical styles. He reckons the tweeter in the SL30s is a bit special and that the whole system is actually more satisfying than some of the more expensive stuff he has had.

So I'm going to go and give this combo a good listen as well. I've got nothing to lose and I've already got a 340C. Seems like a long shot but thinking outside the box isn't a bad thing at times like this. It will be interesting to compare this to the Marantz and Rotel kit.

 

[Anonymous]

matthewpiano:My audition list has been extended. A friend has recently moved some fairly expensive kit on and down-sized to a relatively entry level Cambridge set-up of: 340C CD player 340A SE Amplifier SL30 Speakers He has strongly recommended that I give it a good listen because he is finding it to be very infectious in its musicality and particularly flexible about musical styles. He reckons the tweeter in the SL30s is a bit special and that the whole system is actually more satisfying than some of the more expensive stuff he has had. So I'm going to go and give this combo a good listen as well. I've got nothing to lose and I've already got a 340C. Seems like a long shot but thinking outside the box isn't a bad thing at times like this. It will be interesting to compare this to the Marantz and Rotel kit.

will be interesting to hear your comments on the cambridge setup ... I auditioned the 840C + 840E +840W hooked up to a pair of Mezzo 8 speakers ... was ok, but not for the £3600 pricetag ... something was definately lacking and bass was rubbish ... even my wife mentioned something never sounded right

then again, perhaps it is because we have become used to the sound of my old system and are comparing it?

 

[the record spot]

matthewpiano:My audition list has been extended. A friend has recently moved some fairly expensive kit on and down-sized to a relatively entry level Cambridge set-up of:

340C CD player
340A SE Amplifier
SL30 Speakers

He has strongly recommended that I give it a good listen because he is finding it to be very infectious in its musicality and particularly flexible about musical styles. He reckons the tweeter in the SL30s is a bit special and that the whole system is actually more satisfying than some of the more expensive stuff he has had.

So I'm going to go and give this combo a good listen as well. I've got nothing to lose and I've already got a 340C. Seems like a long shot but thinking outside the box isn't a bad thing at times like this. It will be interesting to compare this to the Marantz and Rotel kit.

You know Matt, the more I read your posts, the more I think I've been blessed! You seem to go from one system or component to the next in a short space of time (this current Rotel/Pioneer/Mission setup lasted a fortnight, if that), but I think the biggest question you need to answer is really what is the kind of sound you like and how best within your budget you can achieve that.

My overriding feeling with the kit change is a multiple of sideways moves, but not too much going forward. Let me stick my neck out here, the CA 340 combo won't work. It might, but it's another sideways move IMO. You had a batch of highly rated kit already, albeit a few years down the line and it's gone!

FWIW, I would sit back down with the most recent rig, detail what of it you really liked and what you didn't. We know, given your feedback, that it is the high frequency noises that are grating, so, can you audition at no cost, some demo cables? Is there anything you can choose that will sweeten the 751s treble a little? You already said the sound was detailed and dynamic, but does that mean what you say it means, or are you really saying "actually, this is too bright and lean"?

If it's the former, then you're close to getting the sound you want, it just requires a slight tweak which an interconnect might do and if it's the latter, well, as the knight in Indiana Jones third movie says..."choose wisely"!

I do think you need to really decide what kind of audio sound you like - I have a wide taste in music like you; almost everything from the Dillinger Escape Plan through to the most genteel classical music and quite a few points in between, but I never sit back and thing "wish this worked better together"...just a thought and a few observations!

 

[Anonymous]

I will most prob get slated for this ... however here goes:

The Pioneer A400 is ok, and so is the rest of Matthews kit ... (based on what he paid for the system)

Matthew stated that his current system sounds good with some genres of music, and with other types it does not sound very good

speaking from experience, I would audition an older more powerful amp (such as the Pioneer SA-9800) , which has several tone/sound controls so that the overall sound can be set to the listener's liking

I have the Pioneer A400 amp and it sounds pretty good on my system, yet there is a HUGE difference when I connect the SA-9800 to any of my 3 systems ...

I tend to have all settings at neutral, but if a cable or interconnect of cdp etc is too bright, or too warm etc, it can be sorted by adjusting a control

reason I tout an older amp such as the SA-9800 is because it can be had for very cheap and it is very good (£275 is what I paid for mine) ...

obviously, there are several similar amps such as the older sansui's, kenwoods, luxmans, yamahas etc which all fall into the same price bracket (under £300)

I too would love to buy a brand new state of the art system, (love the latest Krells) but unfortunately funds do not allow that and think that Mattew is in the same position as me...

Based on matthews comments, (and my experiences) .... I feel that any of his suggested purchases will purely be a sideways move unless he steps up his budget to approx £2k for an amp

if he sells his A400, he should easily get £130 on ebay, as it is still under guarantee and has recently been serviced ... add another £150 ontop of that and possibly all his woes will be sorted!

 

[matthewpiano]

Some more useful thoughts there Record Spot and dim_span.

In terms of the sort of sound I like its hard to pin down. I'm using my trusty fall-back system at present and its much closer to what I want - probably the reason why its still my trusty fall-back system. I actually couldn't stand the A400/751 combination any longer.

What annoys me, more than anything, is hi-fi that tries too hard to be 'hi-fi'. This might sound ridiculous but I find the more a system excels in certain areas, the more its deficiencies shout at me. I actually just want my system to be fun and enjoyable to listen to. I want it to get me excited when the lower brass come in on Mussorgsky's 'Night on a bare mountain'. I want it to make my feet tap when I play Abba's 'SOS', without having my attention drawn to the fairly poor recording. I want to be engrossed and moved by Freddie Mercury's vocals in 'White Queen' (Queen), and I want to get completely distracted by Louis Armstrong when he plays his trumpet in 'Basin Street Blues'.

I've spent a long time (too much time) trying to achieve this by making the hi-fi 'better and better' and its only lead to further dissatisfaction. The A400's hi-end pretensions only serve to highlight its shortcomings, the 740 series Cambridge stuff gets all the hi-fi stuff so right but ends up being boring. My current thought is that the combination of all the hi-end qualities and that sheer musical involvement can be achieved but only at big financial cost, and I'm not in that position. £3k for a Sugden set-up is a massive spend for hi-fi that I can neither afford or justify.

Consequently what I want now is an honest hi-fi set-up. One that plays the music infectiously and without prejudice but without drawing my attention to its deficiencies at every turn. I really appreciate your amp suggestions dim_span but I'm done with 2nd hand hi-fi and the associated risks. More guess work is only going to end up in further tears.

I suspect that budget, entry-level kit is the way forward here. The stages above that, and below the Sugden level, seem to suffer from that dishonesty - pretensions to greater things without ever quite delivering. This is, of course, what helps to maintain the ever turning upgrade wheel but it isn't what I need or want. If the volume control had been better on the Denon D-M37DAB, I might well have stuck with that unit but the big gaps between settings was an absolute deal breaker for me.

So, my auditioning is going to focus on the following:

Cambridge Audio 340C/340A SE/SL30
Marantz CD6003/PM6003 with Dali Lektor 2s/MA RX1s
Rotel RCD-06SE/RA04SE with the same two speaker options

I am also hoping to get to listen to a pair of AVI 9.1s to see what they do for me and, if I can arrange a demo at RS (the Stockport one isn't far and has a demo room) I might try the Cambridge Sonata set-up with the SL30s as well.

When I was growing up I had a fairly basic system (Sony CD/Sansui amp/old MS speakers) in my bedroom and it gave me the chance to fall in love with a huge range of music. I want to be there again.

 

[the record spot]

All fair comment Matt, and I understand the frustrations only too well! I did wonder about the kit you bought and the initial impressions (which are often always favourable, the old "yes, this sounds how I want it to sound" we often go with) sounded promising, but it's only with extended listening that the niggles arise and this applies to new as well as old kit.

I'd still be inclined to suggest considering used gear, but from a dealer where you can still have a warranty (and with careful selection, you might still be able to achieve what you're looking for there), but if you liked the sound of the new Marantz gear at the show recently, then that might be a good place to start. They've always made good kit barring the odd exception and sounds like they're slap bang back on form again.

And yes, hifi's all about the music not the kit it's played through, or it should be at any rate. I joke regularly about Dansette, but my earliest music memories are playing old albums and singles on my parents Dansette Viva and that's about as far away from hifi as you'll get.

 

[crusaderlord]

I have followed your posts for a while Matt and hope you find the right sound.

Personally i would be surprised if you settled on the Cambridge Audio set up - when i heard the 640 range i thought it bright and clinical but lacked the enjoyment and depth i needed. I owned some SL30's for a while too but found them slightly muddy and definately well beaten by some of the WHF favourites.

At the price level you are looking at i would always add in NAD but they offer a very different sound to Cambridge.

If it helps at all and it were me buying from scratch at the price levels you seem to be aiming for i would grab an Arcam CD73 and pair it with a NAD amplifier then shop for some suitable speakers such as the MA RX1.

Good luck.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm listening to a CD now that sounds hard and unpleasent, even on my relatively neutral/warm system with Rothwell Attenuators. Very detailed but very hard. Maybe the truth is, Matt, that you need to keep two systems and use them for different music! Or as a wise man said earlier, get some tone controls. Quad still fit their Tilt control to their 99 preamp as it's such a good idea.

 

[Anonymous]

Maybe this would make a good Reader Rescue article.

 

[matthewpiano]

igglebert:Maybe this would make a good Reader Rescue article.

In some ways it would but I think I need to do rather more extensive auditioning than that would allow.

 

[matthewpiano]

igglebert:I'm listening to a CD now that sounds hard and unpleasent, even on my relatively neutral/warm system with Rothwell Attenuators. Very detailed but very hard. Maybe the truth is, Matt, that you need to keep two systems and use them for different music! Or as a wise man said earlier, get some tone controls. Quad still fit their Tilt control to their 99 preamp as it's such a good idea.

Yes I think tone controls can be very useful if they are decent ones.

Running 2 systems is out of the question. I agree it seems to be the case, but there must be some way of settling on a solution that gives me enjoyment without having to have alternatives to hand.

 

[idc]

matthewpiano:....... He has strongly recommended that I give it a good listen because he is finding it to be very infectious in its musicality and particularly flexible about musical styles......

Key quote. Ask your friend, is your kit perfect? If he says no then take his lead and aim for 'infectious', 'musicality' and 'flexible' and accept nothing is perfect.

I have no intentions of changing my core system, I only intend to add more headphones. Sometimes, such as for that past two weeks, it has sounded a bit off more than it has sung to me. I put that down to running in, the mains, my moods. I do not feel the need to buy another hifi. The Record Spot has given you your best advice in this thread IMHO.

EDIT - please get yourself an avatar Matthew to help brighten the place up! The grey man makes posters who use it look the same, dull and serious!

 

[Anonymous]

matthewpiano:igglebert:I'm listening to a CD now that sounds hard and unpleasent, even on my relatively neutral/warm system with Rothwell Attenuators. Very detailed but very hard. Maybe the truth is, Matt, that you need to keep two systems and use them for different music! Or as a wise man said earlier, get some tone controls. Quad still fit their Tilt control to their 99 preamp as it's such a good idea.

Yes I think tone controls can be very useful if they are decent ones.

Running 2 systems is out of the question. I agree it seems to be the case, but there must be some way of settling on a solution that gives me enjoyment without having to have alternatives to hand.
Fair play. Still, I like thinking about this one over a coffee

 

[matthewpiano]

idc:
matthewpiano:....... He has strongly recommended that I give it a good listen because he is finding it to be very infectious in its musicality and particularly flexible about musical styles......

Key quote. Ask your friend, is your kit perfect? If he says no then take his lead and aim for 'infectious', 'musicality' and 'flexible' and accept nothing is perfect.

I have no intentions of changing my core system, I only intend to add more headphones. Sometimes, such as for that past two weeks, it has sounded a bit off more than it has sung to me. I put that down to running in, the mains, my moods. I do not feel the need to buy another hifi. The Record Spot has given you your best advice in this thread IMHO.

EDIT - please get yourself an avatar Matthew to help brighten the place up! The grey man makes posters who use it look the same, dull and serious!

I've tried to load up an Avatar but it never works. I'll give it another go later.

 

[plastic penguin]

igglebert:matthewpiano:igglebert:I'm listening to a CD now that sounds hard and unpleasent, even on my relatively neutral/warm system with Rothwell Attenuators. Very detailed but very hard. Maybe the truth is, Matt, that you need to keep two systems and use them for different music! Or as a wise man said earlier, get some tone controls. Quad still fit their Tilt control to their 99 preamp as it's such a good idea. Yes I think tone controls can be very useful if they are decent ones. Running 2 systems is out of the question. I agree it seems to be the case, but there must be some way of settling on a solution that gives me enjoyment without having to have alternatives to hand. Fair play. Still, I like thinking about this one over a coffee

I think Matthew is trying to acheive the impossible - he's looking for the perfect sound as opposed to the perfect compromise.Hi-fi is a grey area; widening (or adding to the possible options) will only confuse matters further.....

The answer? there isn't one, in my view, unless you spend at least 2k per component: That's, also, debateable.

Why not consider Roksan Kandy LIII or Creek Evo. They will drive those Quads with aplomb. Partner it with Arcam CD73T - this will give him the warmth - matches brilliantly with the gun-ho attack of the Roksan (or lively Creek). It's the ideal compromise....not the perfect solution.

 

[Craig M.]

plastic penguin:

I think Matthew is trying to acheive the impossible - he's looking for the perfect sound as opposed to the perfect compromise.Hi-fi is a grey area; widening (or adding to the possible options) will only confuse matters further.....

The answer? there isn't one, in my view, unless you spend at least 2k per component: That's, also, debateable.

good post, pp. i think budget kit is going to compromise in some area you find unacceptable, equally going for kit that is neutral as possible is going to expose what you don't like about certain cd's and the way they've been recorded, it also might be outside your budget to get kit that neutral. i'd guess the avi's might be the cheapest way of achieving it or maybe something with tone controls is your best option. i wonder if being a musician is what's making it so hard for you to find something you'll be happy with?

 

[matthewpiano]

I think finding the best compromise is what it is going to be about in the end. Good posts there!!

I have wondered myself whether my experience as a live musician has made this so much harder. It seems plausible, although other musicians I know seem not to get too bothered about hi-fi reproduction. Would make a fascinating subject for a psychologist!!

 

[idc]

The way you review music you are listening to in the thread on such, you clearly know your music, how it is made and how it should sound. A bad note or flat vocal that passes me by, you will pick up on it and that must make it harder for you to enjoy some stuff that I love.

How have you found seriously high end hifi that digs deep and extracts all detail ruthlessly?

PS - email an avatar to What hifi in the contact bit and I am sure a nice person there will do it for you.

 

[plastic penguin]

matthewpiano:I think finding the best compromise is what it is going to be about in the end. Good posts there!! I have wondered myself whether my experience as a live musician has made this so much harder. It seems plausible, although other musicians I know seem not to get too bothered about hi-fi reproduction. Would make a fascinating subject for a psychologist!!

No, it isn't about of lying on a couch being checked by a shrink, or because you're a musician: John Duncan and Big Chris don't have these dilemmas. It's more of a case of setting realistic goals considering your budget. What you can achieve and what you CAN'T! Now whether that means you stick or twist is something only you can answer. I'm trying to sanitise the subject, you could have 10,000 additional posts to this thread and you will still be undecided.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Matthew,

Wouldn't consider myself a hi fi buff, but since you always kindly take the time to post your findings here, I'll give you my thoughts. Since you're considering budget kit, why not audition some Denon? I own the dcd500ae, which is a pretty good cdp, and I auditioned the pma500ae and 700ae amps. I know whf is not crazy about those, but I felt they held up well against budget HK, CA and Marantz. Added bonus is a (supposedly, I haven't tried that) decent phono stage. Bought my cdp ex-demo, and the amps should be available with a discount, with the 510, 710 etc series coming in.

Hope you find what you're looking for.