Arcam

[matthewpiano]

Things aren't working right yet. The recent Rotel/Pioneer/Mission set-up has not been a complete success and playing around with different combinations from what I have suggests that the speakers and the amp are more to blame than the CD player. On some music it can sound hyper-detailed with plenty of attack and decent soundstaging but on other pieces, particularly classical stuff, things get a bit harsh. The upper strings sound thin and metallic on occasion and somehow the orchestra doesn't hang together.

I need to do a lot of auditioning and listening before I make any further changes and I need to back that up with a lot of research.

Has anyone here recently heard the Arcam A18 and/or CD17? I'd be interested in the thoughts of the dealers, contributors and WHF as appropriate. It is some time since I auditioned these items but there were things I definitely liked about them and, as I want something I can enjoy with a wide range of musical content and over lengthy listening periods, my mind is turning back towards them. Furthermore, if I audition them, what speakers should I be looking to match up to them? Am I looking in the right direction? How would the Arcams compare with the Yamaha A-S700 and its matching CD player (I have the amp), or the entry Rega system of Apollo/Brio 3/RS1s?

Any changes are some way off because I have to be convinced, and I'll be making them one stage at a time, with the CD player going last, but any further thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

matthewpiano:Things aren't working right yet. The recent Rotel/Pioneer/Mission set-up has not been a complete success and playing around with different combinations from what I have suggests that the speakers and the amp are more to blame than the CD player. On some music it can sound hyper-detailed with plenty of attack and decent soundstaging but on other pieces, particularly classical stuff, things get a bit harsh. The upper strings sound thin and metallic on occasion and somehow the orchestra doesn't hang together.

I need to do a lot of auditioning and listening before I make any further changes and I need to back that up with a lot of research.

Has anyone here recently heard the Arcam A18 and/or CD17? I'd be interested in the thoughts of the dealers, contributors and WHF as appropriate. It is some time since I auditioned these items but there were things I definitely liked about them and, as I want something I can enjoy with a wide range of musical content and over lengthy listening periods, my mind is turning back towards them. Furthermore, if I audition them, what speakers should I be looking to match up to them? Am I looking in the right direction? How would the Arcams compare with the Yamaha A-S700 and its matching CD player (I have the amp), or the entry Rega system of Apollo/Brio 3/RS1s?

Any changes are some way off because I have to be convinced, and I'll be making them one stage at a time, with the CD player going last, but any further thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Matthew, this was a couple of weeks ago!

Seriously though, I think you should take it easy as you say and try a lot out before taking your next step.

Re: Mission 751s and other stories
matthewpiano:
dim_span:
Matthew .... how would you rate your new system to the one that you had set your sites on at the show? (The brand new Marantz setup)

The Marantz/MS set-up impressed me greatly at the show and I stand by my judgement. For anyone who really wants a brand new system to give them huge pleasure for relatively little outlay I would wholeheartedly recommend it. I can completely understand why WHFS&V have given awards to the 6003 components because they are excellent.

However, I'm glad I didn't buy it because this is better. Playing the same tracks I heard at the show (and obviously allowing a little for differences in room etc.) my system has more atmosphere and sounds better at lower volumes. The Rotel sounds very analogue in a really good way and I'm very pleased I decided to go for a decent CD player. Its streets ahead of the 340C/MF V-DAC combination.

As a bonus it was considerably cheaper (about half the price) than the new set-up would have been and, in buying from a 2nd hand dealer I feel like I have supported a small business rather than putting money straight into the pockets of a big manufacturer. (The company I work for is also a small business and we like to build relationships with our customers so it feels good to be supporting someone else in the same boat).

Thanks for steering me back towards used gear.

I've just read this post Matthew, after not looking in since my jokey post on page 1. Hilarious how much your mind changed even within the length of this post!! What odds that you have a whole new system by Christmas!??! I bet you wished you kept your Denons though?

 

[matthewpiano]

I know gerrard, its absolutely ridiculous. Things seem to impress me in the first few days but falter with more extended listening.

The things I've found irritating in different set-ups over the last couple of years have been:

Overly bright/thin treble
Flat, lifeless sound - poor front to back and side to side soundstage
Fatigue over long listening sessions
Lack of rhythmic alacrity
Congested midband
Limited dynamic range

These are the things I need to avoid. Sorry to be a pain and to be so all over the place...

Oh, and only new gear now because I'm going to need to work with a dealer throughout the process.

 

[plastic penguin]

matthewpiano:Things aren't working right yet. The recent Rotel/Pioneer/Mission set-up has not been a complete success and playing around with different combinations from what I have suggests that the speakers and the amp are more to blame than the CD player. On some music it can sound hyper-detailed with plenty of attack and decent soundstaging but on other pieces, particularly classical stuff, things get a bit harsh. The upper strings sound thin and metallic on occasion and somehow the orchestra doesn't hang together. I need to do a lot of auditioning and listening before I make any further changes and I need to back that up with a lot of research. Has anyone here recently heard the Arcam A18 and/or CD17? I'd be interested in the thoughts of the dealers, contributors and WHF as appropriate. It is some time since I auditioned these items but there were things I definitely liked about them and, as I want something I can enjoy with a wide range of musical content and over lengthy listening periods, my mind is turning back towards them. Furthermore, if I audition them, what speakers should I be looking to match up to them? Am I looking in the right direction? How would the Arcams compare with the Yamaha A-S700 and its matching CD player (I have the amp), or the entry Rega system of Apollo/Brio 3/RS1s? Any changes are some way off because I have to be convinced, and I'll be making them one stage at a time, with the CD player going last, but any further thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Me, Mat. I heard both when I auditioned Usher, Linn and PMC speakers.

The new FMJ range (only heard the entry-level models) is pretty mixed IMO. The amp was okay - nothing really wrong with, it just didn't inspire. Is it as good as the old DIVA range. Yes and no. It has more clarity and a tad more detailed than my A65, but it just wasn't as exciting as the A65. On the other hand the CDP is an improvement on the amp and on the CD73T (just). We're not talking 'night and day', it is quite subtle. So it is down to personal choice whether you prefer detail and clarity over musicality.

Can't tell you how they compare to the Yams though. Sorry.....

 

[matthewpiano]

plastic penguin:
matthewpiano:Things aren't working right yet. The recent Rotel/Pioneer/Mission set-up has not been a complete success and playing around with different combinations from what I have suggests that the speakers and the amp are more to blame than the CD player. On some music it can sound hyper-detailed with plenty of attack and decent soundstaging but on other pieces, particularly classical stuff, things get a bit harsh. The upper strings sound thin and metallic on occasion and somehow the orchestra doesn't hang together. I need to do a lot of auditioning and listening before I make any further changes and I need to back that up with a lot of research. Has anyone here recently heard the Arcam A18 and/or CD17? I'd be interested in the thoughts of the dealers, contributors and WHF as appropriate. It is some time since I auditioned these items but there were things I definitely liked about them and, as I want something I can enjoy with a wide range of musical content and over lengthy listening periods, my mind is turning back towards them. Furthermore, if I audition them, what speakers should I be looking to match up to them? Am I looking in the right direction? How would the Arcams compare with the Yamaha A-S700 and its matching CD player (I have the amp), or the entry Rega system of Apollo/Brio 3/RS1s? Any changes are some way off because I have to be convinced, and I'll be making them one stage at a time, with the CD player going last, but any further thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Me, Mat. I heard both when I auditioned Usher, Linn and PMC speakers.

The new FMJ range (only heard the entry-level models) is pretty mixed IMO. The amp was okay - nothing really wrong with, it just didn't inspire. Is it as good as the old DIVA range. Yes and no. It has more clarity and a tad more detailed than my A65, but it just wasn't as exciting as the A65. On the other hand the CDP is an improvement on the amp and on the CD73T (just). We're not talking 'night and day', it is quite subtle. So it is down to personal choice whether you prefer detail and clarity over musicality.

Can't tell you how they compare to the Yams though. Sorry.....

Thanks PP 🙂. Did you come to any conclusions about which speakers worked well with the Arcs?

 

[Anonymous]

Matthew, the A400 is good, The Rotel CDP is good and so are the speakers .... however ...

in my opinion, the problem lays with the speakers as I do not think they match the amp and cdp properly ...

with your setup, I would have purchased the mission 753's (old version) or even an old pair of B&W DM2's ( the 1st version not the DM2 series 2)

The 753's can be had for under £200 in black finish and the DM2's can be bought for approx £180 or much less

I spent a lot of time researching what goes well with the A400, and eventually opted for the DM2's ( as they were pretty cheap-£50 but the 753's were my 1st choice) ...

they are a 3 way design and are transmissions with the same tweeters and supertweeters as the Spendor BC1's ... they are pretty large but can be used on higher good quality stands as the tweeters are below the bass driver (so need to be raised to get the tweeters to ear level) ... easy to drive and sound superb with the A400

obviously, there will be better suggestions for newer speakers, but am just giving you my advice based on my equipment ...

If ever you do pass through cambridge, bring your amp ( or connect my A400 and bring your rotel cdp and connect to my speakers and have a listen)

 

[the record spot]

Try out an interconnect such as Audioquest's Copperhead; I use this in mine and it rounds off the sharp highs nicely but gives a little more to the bass too. I'd also try out an Arcam amp over the Pioneer later on.

I must admit, I'm not surprised that the resulting sound is a little sharp and a bit too shiny shiny to be fair now that you've heard it, but that said, nothing ventured, nothing gained. I'd suggest you go down the interconnect route first (demo rather than buy if you can) if only that the ongoing kit change is resulting in more frustration. The high top end you hear could be tamed and it sounds like you are fairly close to the sound you might like.

Having the original 752s and previously the 751s some years ago with their mesh dome tweeter, I think they work incredibly well and the range is hard to beat. That doesn't mean it's going to be good with everything, but that said, the problem here may just need a minor tweak than a wholesale transplant.

 

[plastic penguin]

matthewpiano:plastic penguin:

matthewpiano:Things aren't working right yet. The recent Rotel/Pioneer/Mission set-up has not been a complete success and playing around with different combinations from what I have suggests that the speakers and the amp are more to blame than the CD player. On some music it can sound hyper-detailed with plenty of attack and decent soundstaging but on other pieces, particularly classical stuff, things get a bit harsh. The upper strings sound thin and metallic on occasion and somehow the orchestra doesn't hang together. I need to do a lot of auditioning and listening before I make any further changes and I need to back that up with a lot of research. Has anyone here recently heard the Arcam A18 and/or CD17? I'd be interested in the thoughts of the dealers, contributors and WHF as appropriate. It is some time since I auditioned these items but there were things I definitely liked about them and, as I want something I can enjoy with a wide range of musical content and over lengthy listening periods, my mind is turning back towards them. Furthermore, if I audition them, what speakers should I be looking to match up to them? Am I looking in the right direction? How would the Arcams compare with the Yamaha A-S700 and its matching CD player (I have the amp), or the entry Rega system of Apollo/Brio 3/RS1s? Any changes are some way off because I have to be convinced, and I'll be making them one stage at a time, with the CD player going last, but any further thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Me, Mat. I heard both when I auditioned Usher, Linn and PMC speakers.

The new FMJ range (only heard the entry-level models) is pretty mixed IMO. The amp was okay - nothing really wrong with, it just didn't inspire. Is it as good as the old DIVA range. Yes and no. It has more clarity and a tad more detailed than my A65, but it just wasn't as exciting as the A65. On the other hand the CDP is an improvement on the amp and on the CD73T (just). We're not talking 'night and day', it is quite subtle. So it is down to personal choice whether you prefer detail and clarity over musicality.

Can't tell you how they compare to the Yams though. Sorry.....

Thanks PP 🙂. Did you come to any conclusions about which speakers worked well with the Arcs?

Out of the ones I tested, the Arcs seemed more comfortable with Ushers, although not the best sound. The Linn's (can't remember the model) rrp £700 approx sounded too thin. Now, interestingly, the Arcs sounded best with the DB1is in many respects. The clarity, detail imaging sounded the most natural. However, when it came to really diggin low frequencies out it sounded rather flat (use 'flat' loosely), but I would imagine that could rectified if you were to bi-amp a power amp to it. Unfortunately, the dealer didn't have stock or demo one in stock.....

 

[JoelSim]

As I've said before, the A85 is a much better amp than the A400. Unless Arcam have gone backwards then the FMJ should trounce the A400 which can be a bit glassy.

 

[Anonymous]

Matt, wholesale sell all of your kit and go out and buy a Sugden A21 and CDP. Speakers? Keep the Quads for now and see where things take you, perhaps Proac.

The problem is that you have a demanding list of requirements, as do all hifi enthusiasts:
- Not fatiguing or flat
- Not unexciting but not over-exciting so as to sound coloured or bright
- Dynamic and 3D
- Natural
- Good with all types of music
- Clear midband and free from congestion

Based on my own experiences I don't think you're going to get that unless you up the ante. I'm happy to be proven wrong. Save, wait and look forward to getting the kit you *know* will satisfy you.

As I suggested before, an iPod with decent headphones sounds remarkably good and solves all hifi evils.

 

[Messiah]

Just demo some AVI ADM 9.1s.

These will be the solution

 

[Anonymous]

Messiah:
Just demo some AVI ADM 9.1s.

These will be the solution

Good call!

 

[plastic penguin]

igglebert:Messiah:

Just demo some AVI ADM 9.1s.

These will be the solution

Good call!

Yep, it is. Even better, if Mat is genuinely interested in Arcam, then look no further than the Solo. For about the same numbers as the AVI Actives and it caters for analogue set-up as well; covers a whole multitude of sins.

 

[the record spot]

dim_span:

...they are a 3 way design and are transmissions with the same tweeters and supertweeters as the Spendor BC1's ... they are pretty large but can be used on higher good quality stands as the tweeters are below the bass driver (so need to be raised to get the tweeters to ear level) ... easy to drive and sound superb with the A400

You'd seek to raise the 753 to get the tweeter to ear level height? The 753 tweeter sits at the top on the original 753 and below on the Freedom version. In the latter case, Mission designed them this way and they work well in that respect as they do on the 751. Or were you talking about the Spendors d_s?

I doubt Matt needs to go anywhere near buying yet more kit, but if he did, I'd be out making an offer on an Arcam Alpha 10 amp. This'll give him the scale and the dynamics, but with a touch of added warmth that the Pioneer lacks.

 

[Anonymous]

my suggestion is search ebay for a pair of mission 753's that are close to where you live ... ask the seller if you can audition them ... if he agrees, take your amp and cdp and have a good listen ... most sellers will be most happy to let a prospective bidder check an item out before bidding

do the same with other speakers that may interest you if you are looking at buying used

but I dont think that the prob lays with the amp or cdp (or cables)

 

[Anonymous]

With a Pioneer A400 at the helm I think Matt is looking for some neutrality! Good little amp but not especially neutral.

 

[Anonymous]

the record spot:dim_span: ...they are a 3 way design and are transmissions with the same tweeters and supertweeters as the Spendor BC1's ... they are pretty large but can be used on higher good quality stands as the tweeters are below the bass driver (so need to be raised to get the tweeters to ear level) ... easy to drive and sound superb with the A400 You'd seek to raise the 753 to get the tweeter to ear level height? The 753 tweeter sits at the top on the original 753 and below on the Freedom version. In the latter case, Mission designed them this way and they work well in that respect as they do on the 751. Or were you talking about the Spendors d_s? I doubt Matt needs to go anywhere near buying yet more kit, but if he did, I'd be out making an offer on an Arcam Alpha 10 amp. This'll give him the scale and the dynamics, but with a touch of added warmth that the Pioneer lacks.

no, was talking about the B&W speakers .,... the 753,s are floorstanders ... the DM2's need stands

 

[Clare Newsome]

Matt - whatever happened to your joy at finding great sounds at the Manchester Show?

Was dismayed after that (largely) positive ears-on experience when you found yourself (yet again) buying untested kit second-hand

There is so much excellent affordable kit around right now - please, please, go for an extended demo with your favourite discs.

 

[Craig M.]

agree with Clare, if you can afford to. even better if the dealer will let you home dem for a week or two. sorry to say, but your current course doesn't seem to be leading to satisfaction. whatever, good luck with it.

 

[matthewpiano]

Clare Newsome:
Matt - whatever happened to your joy at finding great sounds at the Manchester Show?

Was dismayed after that (largely) positive ears-on experience when you found yourself (yet again) buying untested kit second-hand

There is so much excellent affordable kit around right now - please, please, go for an extended demo with your favourite discs.

Thanks Clare. I think that is very good advice indeed.

Given the following taste in music what particular combinations would you recommend? I think the ears-on experience with the Marantz kit needs repeating but if you were me, what shortlist would you audition?

Classical (including large scale orchestral works and opera)
Acoustic/Folk/Country
Classic/Progressive/Blues Rock
Jazz
Easy listening

Thanks again.

 

[Anonymous]

speaking of which ... are you sure that it's not the quality of some of the cd's you are listening to? ...

most prob a dumb question, but have read comments both on this forum and others where some people are complaining about the quality of cd's .... and you have said that some cd's/music sounds fine and others not

 

[Clare Newsome]

matthewpiano:Clare Newsome:
Matt - whatever happened to your joy at finding great sounds at the Manchester Show?

Was dismayed after that (largely) positive ears-on experience when you found yourself (yet again) buying untested kit second-hand

There is so much excellent affordable kit around right now - please, please, go for an extended demo with your favourite discs.

Thanks Clare. I think that is very good advice indeed.

Given the following taste in music what particular combinations would you recommend? I think the ears-on experience with the Marantz kit needs repeating but if you were me, what shortlist would you audition?

Classical (including large scale orchestral works and opera)
Acoustic/Folk/Country
Classic/Progressive/Blues Rock
Jazz
Easy listening

Thanks again.

I'd go back to the Marantz's you loved so much, paired with (as you disliked the Wharfedales) Dali Lektor 2s or Mordaunt Short Aviano 2s up.

But the NAD and Cambridge Audio combos at this price also have a lot to offer, and shouldn't be overlooked.

 

[plastic penguin]

Clare Newsome:matthewpiano:Clare Newsome:

Matt - whatever happened to your joy at finding great sounds at the Manchester Show?

Was dismayed after that (largely) positive ears-on experience when you found yourself (yet again) buying untested kit second-hand

There is so much excellent affordable kit around right now - please, please, go for an extended demo with your favourite discs.

Thanks Clare. I think that is very good advice indeed. Given the following taste in music what particular combinations would you recommend? I think the ears-on experience with the Marantz kit needs repeating but if you were me, what shortlist would you audition? Classical (including large scale orchestral works and opera) Acoustic/Folk/Country Classic/Progressive/Blues Rock Jazz Easy listening Thanks again.

I'd go back to the Marantz's you loved so much, paired with (as you disliked the Wharfedales) Dali Lektor 2s or Mordaunt Short Aviano 2s up.

But the NAD and Cambridge Audio combos at this price also have a lot to offer, and shouldn't be overlooked.

Very true, Clare, but let's not overlook the ex-dem and s/hand models you can pick up most good retail outlet. This way they come a warranty too.

 

[matthewpiano]

Many thanks Clare. I'll arrange some listening time and report back.

 

[Clare Newsome]

plastic penguin:

Very true, Clare, but let's not overlook the ex-dem and s/hand
models you can pick up most good retail outlet. This way they come a
warranty too.

Indeed - but only, as mentioned, if you audition them with your own discs. Buying blind is a risky business - especially second-hand, when you've no way of assessing in advance the abuse a component may have suffered!