Arcam A32 just not doing it for me....

[admin_exported]

Hi guys

Following several months of listening to my first proper music system, I have come to the conclusion that the Arcam A32 isn't giving me the sound that I want and I'm looking for a new integrated to replace it...

In my current set-up (Rega Saturn CDP / Rega P3-24 / Arcam A32 / DALI Ikon 6 mk1), the whole thing has too much bass and not enough high mids. It lacks aggression, dynamics and clarity. Certainly, it is warm, deep and smooth, but I'm having to take off almost 5db off bass (in the amp's EQ) just so that the bass doesn't overpower everything else. Also, the sound is too recessed for my liking, and even though the Ikons are big speakers, the whole sound just doesn't sound as dramatic and massive as I would like it too.

It definitely isn't the speakers - since I chose the Ikons for their clarity and tight bass; and the Rega sources have strong bass but not excessively so. Basically I think I don't get along with the "Arcam sound" - I listen to progressive rock / metal / classical - and the politeness and smoothness of the amp's sound just isn't working for me.

Originally I went for the amp because I was aware of the lean nature of the DALI's and wanted to have a strong bass response also. It didn't sound as overpoweringly bass-heavy when I demoed the gear....

Anyway, I would like to have some recommendations on amps to check out. Max budget would be around £1500, but would want something broadly in line with the rest of my components..

Had a look and some of the choices seem to be: Sugden A21, Primare A30, Naim XS, Roksan Caspian, Creek Destiny, Musical Fidelity A5 and maybe some others. Need to have 5 inputs along with a phono input ideally. Happy to consider valve amps if there is anything in this price range...

It has to fit it with my Rega sources and the DALI's.... amp's sound should be musical, clear, with strong dynamics and powerful bass, but mean and raw enough to handle distorted guitars and huge drums! Wide soundstage and aggressive mids - but not too shrill in the treble.

Would really appreciate your input.

Thanks guys!

Roman

 

[Anonymous]

LFD Zero III?

NVA AP70/AP80 (an A70 for sale on another forum)?

Naim XS?

 

[JoelSim]

I'm not sure that the Arcam or the Dali Ikon 6 are right for your taste in music. Both of these are perfect for vocalists, acoustics, melody.

With my old Arcam/Dali system there was never too much bass, the tendency was towards treble. Rock and classical were by far the poorest performing genres on my old system, whereas something like Jack Johnson or Tracy Chapman was lovely.

 

[Anonymous]

Arcam probably isn't right for me, however I'm still confident I got the right speaker with the Dali's. bought them after listening to them and many other models - nothing else had quite the same clarity and sound. To my ears they sounded the best!

Went for Arcam based on recommendation so have less confidence that it was the right choice.

I do definitely think that the combination is too bassy - in my room, with my gear, anyway - many tracks that I'm very familiar with just have far too much bass. With my current setup, when I listen to my Iron Maiden vinyls all I can hear is the bass guitar - that's definitely not the response of a "neutral" system...

 

[crusaderlord]

i agree with Joelsim here, you want a mean and raw sound which just isnt what either your amplifier or speakers were designed to be best at - these go for detail, smooth, sweet vocals and melodic sounds

i wont consider myself an expert on getting the edgy sound you look for but it sounds more like a Naim or maybe a Roksan would be better - i very much doubt a valve amplifier will work, in many cases this will make things even smoother than the Arcam

what worries me a bit is that you claim the speakers are not to blame for your overpowering bass, but i personally doubt this is all down to the Arcam as i own an A32 and it certainly doesnt overpower on bass in my set up but then i steer away from floorstanders

 

[Anonymous]

Why not try the Rega Cursa/Maia combination? Very controlled and musical.

 

[JoelSim]

roman_sub:
Arcam probably isn't right for me, however I'm still confident I got the right speaker with the Dali's. bought them after listening to them and many other models - nothing else had quite the same clarity and sound. To my ears they sounded the best!

Went for Arcam based on recommendation so have less confidence that it was the right choice.

I do definitely think that the combination is too bassy - in my room, with my gear, anyway - many tracks that I'm very familiar with just have far too much bass. With my current setup, when I listen to my Iron Maiden vinyls all I can hear is the bass guitar - that's definitely not the response of a "neutral" system...

I'm pretty sure the Dalis are not right for what you listen to after having them for 2 years myself.

Can you also describe the room they are in? Type of floor, speakers near corners? Carpet/rug? Curtains? Low ceilings? Size? Speakers cables? Interconnect?

 

[Anonymous]

Are your DALI'S close to a wall? could bring them forward as a test to see what happends before spending any money.

 

[bretty]

If you would consider second hand, I'd recommend my kit, firstly (Exposure VI, VII and Super VIII) as it plays absolutely every kind of music brilliantly. It has the depth, clarity and attack that you are after, in spades. I've never heard a better amp.

If the three/four box solution, that i've suggested above, doesn't do it for you, then i'd definitely look at the Exposure XXV integrated. Again, a brilliant amp, especially for your musical tastes.

 

[xtsili]

check this out :

Lyngdorf SDAI 2175 Amplifier http://www.homecinemadiscounts.co.uk/lyngdorf.html for reviews see also this:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/amplifiers/351-a-secrets-integrated-amplifier-review.html?start=1

If the SDAI-2175 power amplifier has flaws, they were invisible in my system. Every other amplifier I have had sounded like "something", while this one simply does not. This product has no sound characteristics of its own, and this is a remarkable achievement.

 

[Dan Turner]

I've thought long and hard before replying to this because I used to have an A32 myself. I had it partnered with PMC TB2+ speakers. The bass was plentiful, but I had always attributed this to the fairly small room and the PMCs more than I did the A32. When I upgraded my amp to the Naim I have now then it made me realise that whilst the A32 doesn't lack extension it certainly does lack grunt compared to the Naim, so If I were you I would think carefully about the amp upgrade and certainly demo anything you are thinking of buying in your own home.

If you went for a Naim amp (XS is the obvious choice for your budget) for example I think that it would be better than the A32 and I think that the character would suit your tastes more, however it is going to give you more bass grunt, and although that bass will be of far higher quality it certainly won't be perceptibly less weighty - probably more.

I think that experimenting with positioning (from back and side walls, and with toe-in) and possibly bunging any ports on the speaker with some foam (or a rolled up pair of socks) is the first thing to try. Maybe trial a speaker cable change as well, but definitely resolve the bass excess before trying a new amp to give you the sound you're after - any half decent amp at the money you're talking about is going to at least equal the A32's bass weight.

 

[Anonymous]

thanks for your responses. sorry for the long delay in responding - life got in the way of hifi!

I am absolutely positive that DALI's are not responsible for the bass - I have heard them with 5 different amplifiers, and it was only with Arcam A32 and A38 (heard in different rooms with different components) that they seemed loose in the bass. I spent a while reflecting on what you all wrote - and, yes, for vocalists, acoustic instruments (especially acoustic guitar), the DALI / Arcam combination is great as you get the sparkle and detail at the top and warm bass extension. When I was listening to speakers, the Ikon 6s just really blew me away - I've not heard anything else make the distorted guitar come alive quite as much!

I've spent a good month changing positioning of the speakers and only found this to give marginal improvements. Furthermore, having went back to a dealer and heard the same speakers with Arcam A38 produced a very similar sound to what I have in my room - so it's not really the room or the cables.

I'm not trying to say that DALI & Arcam doesn't work - it definitely does, but not for me. As JoelSim said, his DALI / Arcam system didn't perform well with classical and rock, and those are the two genres that I listen to more than most.

The problem with Ikon 6 / A32 sound, as far as I am concerned, is the lack of forthright mids. The treble is sparkly and great for detail, bass is fairly deep and warm - however the mids are too recessed for my liking. With rock music this translates to guitars being buried in the mix. Furthermore, the sound is not as "3-D" as I've heard on other systems - but I understand that this is, broadly, a characteristic of the Arcam sound. I find the system works amazingly well with movies (blue-ray etc) - really dramatic and engaging but it isn't quite doing it for the music only...

Part of the problem is, perhaps, that Rega Saturn has a more pronounced bass than some other CDPs, so that's probably not helping...

So I guess the problem isn't there is too much bass, but rather that because of the mids being not quite aggressive enough, the bass seems overly prominant. Certainly, with any new amplifier I get, I'd be keen to have the same weight and warmth in the bass.

So, what I'm really after is something a little more gutsy and aggressive in the mids than the Arcam. I am tempted by the Naim XS, however all my previous experiences with Naim 5i have left me with the impression of its sound being somewhat over-excited and maybe too harsh. Would the XS be a noticeable step up from the 5i? It would need to be quite a lot deeper and more accurate sounding for it work, I think...

I really like how the Primare i30 sounds with my speakers, but the problem is then the sound becomes too clean and there isn't quite enough bass grunt. The Primare's detailed approach is the road that i want to go down, though - it really opened up the sound for me. I haven't heard the I30 / Ikon 6 with my CDP though, so maybe that would be a better result in terms of bass depth.

Anyway, I hope this long ramble makes sense re: what issues I have and what sort of sound I am looking for. I'd love to hear your comments and maybe see how amp recommendations may change etc.

p.s. would a Sugden A21 be something to look into?

Thanks, Roman

 

[drummerman]

I found the A38's high frequencies to be very good, more revealing and spacious than a Naim XS. Not as punchy or rythmic though. The XS is just musical and less hifi but is slightly rolled off in the treble. Something to listen out for if that is important to you. Yes, it's a better amplifier than the 5 and the midrange is both explicit and driving but certainly not harsh.

You repeatedly stated that the problem is not your speakers. What did you audition them with?

 

[Anonymous]

I auditioned the speakers with Primare i30, Musical Fidelity M6i, Arcam A38. Probably the best that they sounded was with the Primare, but they didn't have quite enough bass with that amp.

Also, pretty much every review and post that I have seen re: Ikon 6's confirms that they are quite lean in the bass!

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi roman_sub

I will also recommend Naim's Nait XS.

Its a long shot however another amp also worth considering is Rotel's RA-1062. The RA-1062 might just do the trick for you.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Anonymous]

I recommend Naim XS as well, it might be the missing puzzle.

 

[SonofSun]

Room accoustics will determine to a great extent how your system sounds. I am not clear whether you demo'd the other amps in your own house or at a dealer's

If not, you need to try these amps in your home, it is no good listening to components in a dealers demo room.

I would recommend Roksan or maybe Cyrus amps. The MF A5 I owned briefly, was far too bassy for my tastes.

 

[Dan Turner]

roman_sub:
I've spent a good month changing positioning of the speakers and only found this to give marginal improvements. Furthermore, having went back to a dealer and heard the same speakers with Arcam A38 produced a very similar sound to what I have in my room - so it's not really the room or the cables.

I also vote for trying out some of these other successful amplifier pairings in your room, and for my money the Nait XS has to be top of the list.

I'll just double check because you didn't explicitly mention it - have you tried bunging the ports on the speakers with something? In my experience this will cut the bass weight down substantially. If you proceed with the amp change and find that your room is part of the problem and you can't get your speakers in a position where they don't boom, then this might have to be your last resort.

 

[Anonymous]

"... amp's sound
should be musical, clear, with strong dynamics and powerful bass,
but mean and raw enough to handle distorted guitars and huge drums! Wide
soundstage and aggressive mids - but not too shrill in the treble."

Hi mate, I agree with everyone in at least recommending the Naim XS for audition.

For soundstage, though, and a good point of comparison against the Naim, you might want to also try to hear a Simaudio Moon.

Although above your price range the ATC SIA2-150 checks all the boxes you list and then some. Kind of in a different league, but it's FANTASTIC.

 

[Anonymous]

Tried a Naim 112/150 combo at home - and wow - it addressed all of the problems! Bought it on the same evening of the audition.

In truth, I didn't even audition the XS because of it being almost twice the price of the 112/150 - would rather spend the difference elsewhere....

Anyway, the difference between the 112/150 and the Arcam A32 was like night and day. Compared to the Naim, A32 sounded muffled and lifeless - as if the sound was coming from behind a thick duvet or something... Not sure if it was the Rega sources or the Dali speakers that weren't liking the A32 - since Rega CDPs seem to be more bass-heavy than Arcam CDP's, or maybe it was the combination of neutral mellow speakers with warm mellow amp... Anyway, the rega/naim/dali combo sounds phenomenal! It solved all of the issues - like lack of aggressive mids, but it also improved bass clarity and created a soundstage that A32 lacked.

As far as complete systems that I've heard go, it doesn't sound too far away from creek destiny CDP & amp with Epo M22i - except more detailed, more open, and less shrilly at the top. I think it will sound even better after a few Naim upgrades =)

Though the A32 is a thoroughly well-engineered piece of kit, but it really got showed up by the Naim combo in my system. I previously auditioned a Nait 5i CDP & amp and was put off by it's shallow and trebly sound, but none of this sound carried over into my system - the 112/150 creates a surprisingly deep and musical tone. Obviously it still has the Naim pace, rhythm and timing but in context of the Dali's this is a very welcome thing - these speakers seem to beg for a bit of life and aggression in the amp!

So, to summarise, Naim was the correct answer to my problem. I am sure XS would have performed as well - but costs were prohibitive. Furthermore, the synergy that seems to exist between Rega & Naim is something quite special that I didn't expect. At some point in the future, I guess I can see myself questioning whether the Naim sound is the one that I will always want - however it certainly solved the puzzle of making my present system work =D