Any Experience wot Velodyne SPL 1200 ultra

[ellisdj]

Do you really need to hear lower frequencies to appreciate it? It's the thump you feel in your chest which is low frequency. And trust me, you don't need massive rooms for it. My buttkicker goes down to 9Hz and it doesn't create any sound. But it's the single biggest difference to my cinema experience.

I have no interest in buying things just to spite you.....my money is better spent in things that I like (not the things that you don't). And by the way, i'm not going for the anthem as I'm interested in Dolby Atmos capability.

Oh no - thats shocker - I am surprised by that, I thought you was set on the 510. I was joking by the way - but it makes me laugh that I rub you the wrong way.

I find Dolby Atmos in the home a joke of an idea - as its more speakers creating more acoustic problems - but dont worry we'll just eq it lol. Same story over again - and more channels of amplification squeezed into the one box.

7.1 or 2 I get but more seems crazy way of getting people to spend more money on speakers and cables.

It seems the opposite way to go - more in favour or gimic less in favour of sound quality.

In a dedicated room - processor & multiple power amps then yeah I am sure its great

You make a fair point on bass frequencies though, I have just been checking and it appears we can hear down to 20hz so there is huge amplitude needed at that frequency in the room.

 

[CnoEvil]

Movies will never be the same again without a buttlicker.

That's true....my Buttkicker chases me out to do something useful, rather than wasting my time sitting in my favorite seat, listening to "that racket"! *scratch_one-s_head*

 

[ellisdj]

I take that back from before look at this

This is my subwoofer - after some EQ - 4 filters set to a hardknee house curve.

I get bass on the curve very nearly to 20hz and below.

However when you look at the bottom graph the waterfall - if you see the thickening of the purple at 26hz that is extreme modes.

So that is not clean bass at all but you can eq or do anything as its the mode that giving the correct amount of bass freq

Considering thats the graph with no smoothing - there is no boosting of frequencies at all - that is a bloody good curve and that gives clean bass down to 26hz ish and below not so clean thanks to my room. Thats bloody good and has taken a lot of work. (although its all gone now system is away, howeever I expect better when the room is back and better treated)

This is the only way to know for sure - measure and adjust

There is also no way of knowing the accuracy of my mic down at the extremes such as 20 hz, I would expect it to do 20 and not below, either way I dont think I will ever get clean bass down there.

Buttkicker or not physics wont have it - there is no need for a product like that with a well setup good sub - there is a lot to setting up a sub, delay (distance) is crucial to integration with the fronts - that would very difficult to setup I would imagien with such a product

 

[bigboss]

Movies will never be the same again without a buttlicker.

That's true....my Buttkicker chases me out to do something useful, rather than wasting my time sitting in my favorite seat, listening to "that racket"! *scratch_one-s_head*

*biggrin*

It needs to be properly setup. Too loud and it'll create a racket.

 

[bigboss]

Buttkicker or not physics wont have it - there is no need for a product like that with a well setup good sub - there is a lot to setting up a sub, delay (distance) is crucial to integration with the fronts - that would very difficult to setup I would imagien with such a product

Just demo it before making assumptions. It only truly reacts to lower frequencies, lower than what your sub can achieve despite the information being there on the disc.

 

[ellisdj]

I have been looking for detailed info since your reco last night but there is not much about - only a few basic reviews. I understand how it works, how you set it up etc

The idea seems great to fill in any sub freq gap - its rated depending what site you read 5- 200hz which is as good as most subs. Although I know it doesnt replace a sub

The Audioholics review basically calls it a chair shaker - they dont review it like they review subs which i found a bit odd, there is no actual measurements of output like they do in other reviews. Does it only vibrate the chair its attached to or do you actually feel bass in the room around it as well?

 

[bigboss]

No you won't feel any bass. Instead of vibration, I would call it a rumble.

For example, in that I am Legend scene I mentioned, you'll feel the rumble only when the camera is inside the car (as if you're sitting in it), but you won't feel it when they show the car from outside. The purpose of the lower frequencies is to give you that thump, which the buttkicker does brilliantly. I watched I am Legend few times before. Those lower frequencies were not detected by my subwoofer at all despite the information being all there in the disc.

 

[ellisdj]

Reality Check. (Just seen BB psot above this will be why you dont get the info from the film - bass nulls in your room) - thanks for the explanation

When you actually look at closer inspection - I had fundamental flaws in my bass performance

The Red Circles are bass nulls - that is inaudible bass @ 90 / 75 / 45/ all around 30hz is very low. Which is actually terrible whern you think about it as there is lots of bass missing - you cant tell this by ear though which is what I was saying before - this sounds like very good bass, buts reality its not that great and there is actually huge room for improvement

The blue is a big peak still in play after I have done some manual eq. I have left the peak alone as its by the crossover point of 100hz and I have read its advised to not eq in the crossover area as it can affect the integration between the main speakers

The reality is - I should try moving the sub to another location - however I had to have the sub in this corner to help support the front right speaker in its bass repsonse. Having the sub there as a solid structure helped

That was the compromsie I decided to make for overall sound quality (mrs preferred this corner as well so less nagging in the ear) I would never have known any of this had I not been able to look at the results of what the spakers and sub are doing

 

[bigboss]

The buttkicker is an extension to your existing sub and not a replacement. Yes, I was talking about the lowest frequencies undetectable by sub, but you're right about missing frequencies which the subwoofer should be perfectly capable of handling.

 

[ellisdj]

No you won't feel any bass. Instead of vibration, I would call it a rumble.

Those lower frequencies were not detected by my subwoofer at all despite the information being all there in the disc.

Its likely not to do with the sub not detecting those frequencies - I hope dont mis interpret your words and sound attacking - its likely one of several situations.

1. The room wont allow those frequencies to form at your listening position - either because they are lost elsewhere as the room is not isolated - they are modal and its just a boom or a null

2. the sub doesnt actually output the very deepest frequencies 10hz to 30hz - which is possible and I think what you meant

3. the sub is not outputting enough of those frequencies to be audible / felt at the correct levels as per your ears requirement

Its likely a combination of all of them - now I like the idea of a trasnducer that can potentially fill in my gap between say 35hz and 10hz - if it could do it in a linear fashion timed correctly that would be amazing. No idea there is no info available about this

However an alternative general focus I feel is better spent concentrating on getting very good 100 - 30 hz bass as this is the bulk of what you get in music and films.

 

[CnoEvil]

Having owned the 1200R for almost 2 years, I don't relate to Ellis's experience (which is fair as it relates to him). It had no trouble producing shockwaves of sound that you could feel in your chest, of deep controlled EQ'd bass.

I now have a Reference 18" Sub with its own expensive DSP mic and EQing system, which at least gives me a standard to judge the little Velo by....and it isn't too shabby.

There are quite a few favorable reviews of the 1200R, of which this is one:

http://www.avhub.com.au/images/stories/pdf/Velodyne%20SPL-1200R.pdf?128973996096470000

A quote from the above review.
"Does all this high-tech circuitry make a difference to the sound? You bet it does! When we listened to the SPL-1200R before equalising it for our room, we thought it sounded pretty good, but after we’d equalised it, the difference was chalk and cheese: the bass became louder, the subwoofer went down lower in frequency than before, and the crossover from the subwoofer to the main speakers became seamless. If this is the difference equalisation makes, every subwoofer should have it! But it wasn’t just the equalisation that was responsible for the sound we heard: the volume levels we were able to generate were awesomely loud, yet even at such high levels (higher than we’d ever use, actually) we couldn’t hear any distortion at all—just clean, clear bass."

 

[ellisdj]

I am a strong believer in telling the truth and putting my money where my mouth is.

If people are still reading and not too insulted by me hopefully they can have a look at this. This is an overlay from bass readings from my old XLS400 and my SVS SB Ultra13 (taken different times). Apart from the level which will always vary a bit in this instance they are practically indistinguisgable from each other in frequency response

As I have said you can buy another similar sub even with a bigger driver but if you put it down in the same spot as before you are likely not going to get miracles - you are likely going to get a very similar bass reponse to before.

The blue is the BK XXLS400 400w 12" and the Purple is the SVS SB 13 Ultra 1500w 13.5" both sealed box subs

There are some differences here that transpire into what you actually hear - but this the honest reality of the situation. This is not exclusive to me this will be the case in all situations / rooms. There is a lot to learn from these graphs and I will make a few pointers when I have 5 minutes to explain a bit more about them and the differences between auto eq systems / manual

Again I am no expert, I only know the basics - but when someone makes a statement I have a good basic understanding of bass and sub setup - this is the level they are referring to. So if I said that they didnt appear to have this level of knowledge from their comments and that was deemed insulting - hopefully you can see now why I said it.

 

[ellisdj]

Quick Follow on - if you look between the 2 red lines you can see one area where the SVS is clearly better than the BK XLS400.

Remember Purple is SVS and Blue is BK XLS400

Look how Linear the frequency response is between 40hz and 20hz - it would be like this all the way along if the room wasnt causing the big peaks and nulls.

Where as the BK starts to sriously fall away from about 35hz maybe even 40hz. Now if you bear in mind what I said about needing more bass the deeper the frequency this is where the BK lacks in performance in the deeper registers. Also like a lot of subs they have peaky performance - so they peak at about 50hz I think and then fall away. So you get a lot of impact out of them as often I think people assume that the rumble they are getting is deep bass. I personally think that rumble is likely only from the 40 - 60hz range maybe even a bit higher as to get true deep bass in the room is not that easy for most subs.

Now normally to get good deep bass you need a ported sub like a BK Monolith which does flat down to 20hz, but is huge but they have managed with the SB Ultra 13 to bridge that gap down to at least 28hz Ultra Clean (with ridiculous Low THD as mentioned earlier in the thread) and lower not so clean probs to realistically about 20hz. This is just one reason why its a very good sub. I hope I am explaining this with true justification of my claims ealier in this thread

 

[Deleted member 116933]

Its fine mate but your justifying something i just i cant fit in. It could be as flat as a ruler it dosn't matter. So like said i have to make do.

Its a shame you didn't do a comparions with the velodyne with the EQ enaged i think you would been suprised it was designed from the ground up to have that engaed.

The read out on siesmic 110 for a small subwoofer was flatter with the eq than with out according to the PBK kit and that eq system has won awards and is regarded as one of the best if not the best. There is only so much you can do in a room without buying foam padding and what not and this is where eq's step in. Even cinimas are setup with eq targets for multiple seats you must know that, granted they design the room to be as dead as possible but its finished off with eq's its where all these things come from.

Don't know if your familar with PBK it or not but it gives a graph simialr to yours. It tells me what i had, the target and then a line showing what its done and it makes a huge difference. I have no screen shots but i can tell you it was ruler flat to 25hz but a few DBs down to yours maybe 8 or 9 or so but its smaller so it be expected but yours acomplishes this without extra aids to a certain degree other than its internal tuning. But to get a true result you should have tested both outside.

And just for the record I never said eq's would solve a problem with nulls but elevates them to a degree. Placement and timing are key i know this as have very sentive ears and if somthing is off i get horrendous ear problems (strange but true).

I think if you where to add an antimode you would sort your last few nulls out with very little effort and you would able to hear every last note give or take a few of the last register but its hit and miss some swear by them other say they cant hear the difference.

 

[ellisdj]

Also my experience of systems like the old ARC (very little experirnce admittedly) they used smoothed graphs for their results

While apparently I have been told 1/3 smoothing is more in line with how we actually hear - it dosnt actually represeent the true situation with regard to the freq response. However it does make what the system has achieved look more effective and pretty, especially in the reduction of bass nulls

This could be wrong though as I say I have very limited experience - but personally I am not a fan of boosting bass frequencies - if you read up the amount of relative power that is needed to boost frequencies you would see why I think this - Pretty sure it is written in the Meridian white paper on room correction.

I appreciate EQ is designed to make the best of a bad situation and does work wonders - least amount of eq used I have found to always be best - none if possible

 

[ellisdj]

Its fine mate but your justifying something i just i cant fit in. It could be as flat as a ruler it dosn't matter. So like said i have to make do.

Its a shame you didn't do a comparions with the velodyne with the EQ enaged i think you would been suprised it was designed from the ground up to have that engaed.

The read out on siesmic 110 for a small subwoofer was flatter with the eq than with out according to the PBK kit and that eq system has won awards and is regarded as one of the best if not the best. There is only so much you can do in a room without buying foam padding and what not and this is where eq's step in. Even cinimas are setup with eq targets for multiple seats you must know that, granted they design the room to be as dead as possible but its finished off with eq's its where all these things come from.

Don't know if your familar with PBK it or not but it gives a graph simialr to yours. It tells me what i had, the target and then a line showing what its done and it makes a huge difference. I have no screen shots but i can tell you it was ruler flat to 25hz but a few DBs down to yours maybe 8 or 9 or so but its smaller so it be expected but yours acomplishes this without extra aids to a certain degree other than its internal tuning. But to get a true result you should have tested both outside.

And just for the record I never said eq's would solve a problem with nulls but elevates them to a degree. Placement and timing are key i know this as have very sentive ears and if somthing is off i get horrendous ear problems (strange but true).

I think if you where to add an antimode you would sort your last few nulls out with very little effort and you would able to hear every last note give or take a few of the last register but its hit and miss some swear by them other say they cant hear the difference.

You have some knowledge admittedly there - but you can take it much further than you have by the sounds of it

The above graphs are pre eq not post. I have had an antimode it is a good unit but way too limited for me. I have experienced PBK on a reference sub and would not waste my money it tbh. There is no need for it and I dont agree with what it does either - however they might have updated it in line with the new arc curve in which case it would be decent.

There are fundamental flaws eqins to a flat curve as I pointed out earlier in the thread - the ear does not perceive a flat curve as flat - it perceives a rising house type curve as flat as more bass aplitude is needed the deeper the bass freq.

I did try to use the eq on the Velo but it wouldnt work - as I said the demo unit I received had clearly had a life of mistreatment.

Either way I measured the subs performance before using so I could set it up exactly the same as the BK and SVS for fair testing. I am gutted I dont have the original measurement to show in comparison - it did measure ok and it did hold on to the deeper bass better than the BK from memory, It also did go quite deep for a tiny box fair play to it.

I didnt write the above to show off the credentials of the SVS as such, just really put a bit of reasoning behind my strong worded points, and to prove I am not just defending a purchase of mine, I have looked at it much deeper than that and reading reviews before making a judgement.

I know for a fact if I got the Velo eq to work with would have been an attempt at a flat curve done by the auto processing. This you will always find lacking for fundamental reasons.

You might not even need a new sub, you might just need to set it up differently - as I clearly show putting another sub in the same spot wont give you oodles of deep bass - it will likely give you a very similar bass response.

However change your mindset that a flat curve it best - this thins out the bass and leaves the low end completely lacking.

Read up on how the new ARC sets itself up if you want a better credential than my say so - the curve used by ARC is not perfect and still has problems. There are bass gurus who have been using house curves for years - one of them has written upon the benefit of the hard knee house curve, how to test for it easily with no measuring equipment other than waht god gave you on the siude of your head.

Its as easy as this - with a flat curve eq set play an 80hz test tone and then play a 30hz test tone and listen for the audible voluem difference between the 2.

The raise the volume level of the 30hz tone until its at the same volume as the 80hz test tone - I bet its 6 DB

Then put the brain in gear - a flat freq reponse should be the same volume at all frequencies - Quite clearly proved here in this simple test is that a flat curve is not actually flat to the ear.

Once you accept this and setup your sub to account for it, it takes a bit of work and trial and error, maybe even the purchase of a new system to eq the sub at first but once you understand it - your bass reproduction at home will go on to new levels you didnt realise you could get from the sub.

Take it from one who has been on the journey and who at first was completely resistive to the idea - I will never go back.

This has nothing to do with room acoustics - just not letting an automated system screw things up like most of them do

EDIT: Using house curves is not new, its interetsing to see some speakers with a house curve built into the design - B&W 801's seem to have it according to a google search.

 

[Deleted member 116933]

I also have to note that PBK never boosts as much as it takes away and yes i dont think they try to hit a flat curve any more.

Eq's for me are handy as i have limmited placment options so it helps tame the bass a little.

I probably don't need a new sub persay but niether really did you! what ever way you look at it. Its a small sub and velo is bigger in turn giving me more volume (hopefully) and head room.

So we go there in there in the end. The velo you had wasn't working to it fullest so really hasn't given you the best experiance of it And to be honest that was the question i asked right at the begining. Is there any build/technical problems i should be aware of. Now you have answered that! The Eq part might be a bit delacate so ill watch out for that. thank you!

And i am looking at the PB1000 in the back of my mind. Just in case the Velo dosnt work out. But im not after deep im after a little of both i want the exciement back that i had with RSW 12 just my stupid onkyo burnt it out. (The protection styem wasnt very good i guess). but have to make compromises I don't like BK ive had dealings with them and the customer service is/was shocking and found the build to be a little shoddy at least with mine. Sent it back they took recipet of it and i didnt get my money back for 2 months. horrible.

So for me the velo is the next port of call if not then maybe the PB 1000 as they seem to get really good right ups but im on the fence with that as ive never had a ported sub.

 

[ellisdj]

I am the same, I know deep down a ported sub would be better as its technically a better performing more efficient design - but would it be better for music - sealed subs are tight

I was very skeptical of SVS - I expected a beast of a sub, when I first put it on I only set the volume gain to about half then was left scratching my head wondering why there was no bass output. Its not like what I was expecting so a ported sub would probably not be either, its probably just as good but its having the guts to try one. - home demo allows that, I wish I have tried the PB Ultra.

I was reading the review of the PB Ultra yesterday and the reviewer said it turned his room into one big massge chair, or something like that - thats a pretty good sum up of what the SB Ultra does as well - thats what the Velo didnt do for me by comparison and its hard to live without that when you have had it.

I would now recommend SVS products to try - a lot of people swear by them. I would have turned my nose up (snob) before and I was slagging the design off (sort of) in the owners thread on AVF before and had to eat humble pie

I had no issue with my BK - it does well what it does for what it costs. My cousin bought one as well his is still going strong as well

I do wish you luck and its good to see the Industry changing habits away from a flat curve, its the curse of AV equipment if you ask me. Once one manufacturer does it and garners praise the others will follow such is the way.

Although there is competition for Atmos as the moment - who can squeeze the more speakers and amp channels into one box / room. the Madness of evolution.....

I get the ease of using a system like PBK - some elements are great such as the calibrated mic, for me its a waste of money but I can see the appeal - they should have tutorials educating the user and including them so they learn what they are doing - then just use the software as a tool for improving their system setup rather than just running auto - maybe they do already

Sorry If I did offend earlier, I type faster than I thinks sometimes becasue I am doing this around work, and I am rude and ignorant most of the time

 

[Deleted member 116933]

All water under the bridge as thay say. Thank you very much for the apolige, I apolgise as well!!!!

 

[bigboss]

Although there is competition for Atmos as the moment - who can squeeze the more speakers and amp channels into one box / room. the Madness of evolution.....

Amps aren't squeezing more channels in one box; 2 channels are simply being reassigned (which existed as "height" channels before). Yamaha RX-A2030 without Atmos is 9.2 channel amp. Yamaha RX-A2040 with Atmos is a 9.2 channel amp.

 

[bigboss]

This is what Steve Withers said about Atmos:

"What surprised us wasn’t how good Atmos was, we rather expected that, but how effective the Atmos speakers were at creating the sensation of overhead speakers. When they were first announced we cynically thought they might just be a gimmick for selling Atmos to people who don’t want speakers in their ceiling. However having had a chance to hear them, they really do work and offer a genuine alternative to drilling into your ceiling. As with the receivers, Dolby is agnostic with regards to manufacturers and although they were using KEF speakers in the demo, there will be plenty of alternatives and Onkyo have already announced Atmos Speakers for customers who buy their new receivers."

I guess you need to demo a proper Atmos system first before dismissing it as a gimmick.

 

[ellisdj]

I dont agree with a lot I have read that Steve Withers has written, his are not reviews I ever go to tbh for advice because of this. I know he reviews a lot of stuff.

I have my view - its hard enough getting great sound from 5 speakers and a sub - adding more will make more problems imo, more sound waves bouncing around the room interacting with each other and causing errors for each other.

I dare say in a proper environment I can imagine the benefit, but most homes are far from this. I do get the idea behind it - to fill in any gaps in the soundfield, and I have not tried it so its guess work I appreciate that - but I do know 5 speakers and sub can image on the ceiling already without other speakers pointing there

To me this just doesnt seem aimed at pure sound quality - more effect, I can appreciate the idea but as it stands its not for me for this reason

I also feel 9 channels off 1 power supply doesnt make sense for good sound quality either - hence why IMO one of the reasons AV is always a long way behind hifi for pure SQ is this is the last thing a good hifi design would have.

 

[Deleted member 116933]

I have to agree with the statement of adding more speakers...... I would take better quality amp and prcocessing over extra speakers any day. But i guess they have to come up with new things as it mae the world go round. Ans for filling the gaps. in the average home im not even sure there would be any gaps to fill in?

And if i had the money and space i would go pre/pro amp route rather than all under one roof so speak. Heard a friends Rotel pre/pro setup along time ago and it sounded fantastic.